Shaper tooling.

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

Up to now I have used square section HSS tools on my shaper. Looking at a few books, I see that a tool holder was often used. This seems to consist of a square or oblong holder in the clapperbox. At the bottom of this holder is a second holder which is pivoted on the bottom of the first holder. This second holder has provision for a piece of HSS to do the cutting

These tools seem to be a very rare bird these days, I would like to make one, but the illustrations are not particularly clear. It seems that a bolt (?) is used as a pivot, but I can't see if the joint is one piece on another, or whether there is some sort of dovetail (castellated?) joint involved.

Some pictures show a nut and bolt fixing and others show what appears to be a (threaded?) disc as the means of tightening, The disc looks neat but how one can tighten it sufficient for shaper work is a bit of a mystery

Such a tool would be excellent for cutting dovetails and the like, so has anyone any experience of them and their construction. Details of shaper work are few and far between on the net and I already have copies of most of the more important contributions.

Can anyone advise?

Andrew.

Edited By Andrew Tinsley on 01/03/2022 13:26:15

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

[Alan MellorParticipant @alanmellor68824]

Some info on here;- kinzers.com

Alan

[IanTParticipant @iant]

I never got around to making one of these Andrew but this design (by Art Volz) for a small shaper toolholder may be useful to you. All of the homemade versions of this type of tool holder that I've seen use brazed or welded construction.

Regards,

IanT

[DC31kParticipant @dc31k]

If you think shaper literature is in short supply, you need to look harder or use Google a little better.

For examples of the toolholder, look on vintagemachinery.org for the catalogues from Armstrong and from Williams.

http://www.neme-s.org has a vast section of shaper literature as does the circuitousroot website.

Look on the internet archive for old textbooks that have been digitised.

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

Hello DC31k,

http://www.neme-s.org was my original go to site. I have most of the shaper info that is on the net, in hard copy. Compared to other machine tools there isn't a great deal to be had and I stick to that statement!. I have quite a few old books from Moltrecht and others that have chapters on shaping

Your advice re tool catalogues was something that I missed so thanks for that idea. I will take a good look.

Thanks,

Andrew.

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

Thanks for the reference to Kinzer. I am familiar with the site, it has a reference to a fixed tool set up, with the cutter at 90 degrees to the main holder in the clapper box. I was really looking for a design that had an adjustable angle.for the cutter.

Thanks again,

Andrew.

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

Ian,

Many thanks for posting the drawing by Art Volz. A picture is better than a thousand words. I can now understand how the holder works. That particular tool covers several fixed angles. In my simple minded way, I thought that the tool holder angle was infinitely variable. I could not for the life of me see how the adjustment was held. Shapers being notorious for loosening anything that can move! Having cut gear teeth on my shaper, I know only too well that a shaper can often loosen the work, especially if it isn't in a vice or clamped firmly to the table.

Serves me right for having a preconceived idea of how the tool works. Without that, I might have twigged how the tool actually functions.

Many Thanks,

Andrew.

[Joseph Noci 1Participant @josephnoci1]

Here is my home made version

Joe

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Try and track down Lathe and Shaping Machine Tools by 'Duplex', Tee Publishing, 1949, republished 1992, ISBN 1 85761 007 5.

Many examples, including what is essentially the tool in Joe's photos.

Neil

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

Thanks Joseph,

I have already started making up my version, If only I had cottoned on that the angle wasn't infinitely variable!

Andrew.

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

Neil,

Interesting reference. I have Ian Bradley's book on "Shaping machine and Lathe tools", but was completely unaware that there was a similar work by Duplex (half of which was Ian Bradley) or are we talking about the same book?

There is certainly a similar tool described in that book. But it is an infinitely variable angle and intended to be used on a Drummond hand shaper. I dismissed this design because it only appears to have a bolt holding the two parts together. In my experience that would not have held the tool in position for 5 minutes. Hence I thought there must be something more to the professional version As indeed Ian and Joseph have shown me.

Thanks,

Andrew.

[John OlsenParticipant @johnolsen79199]

That type of toolholder is useful, with a few caveats. They will only work with fairly long pieces of tool steel, and will unfortunately quite easily turn longer pieces into a selection of short pieces if things turn to custard. The end is fairly bulky so can get in the way a bit, and this tends to cause using them with too much overhang.

There is another type of toolholder intended for shapers, it is just like the ones meant for lathes, but without the built in top rake. Because the end is slimmer it does not get in the way so much.

You can actually use the lathe type, but they are not ideal since they put the cutting edge out in front of the pivot. While this is not good from the point of view of digins and chatter, it can work, and the dovetails on my dovetail mystery, published in ME more years back than I care to remember were done this way.

Art Volz was very active on the old Yahoo shaper group, and was kind enough to send me some drawings of the authentic vice for my 6 inch Ammco. I had castings made, I really should finish machining them sometime soon!

John

[Phil PParticipant @philp]

I have never tried it myself, but read an article a number of years ago where someone had converted a bicycle pedal crank into a shaper tool.

Phil

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

Yes that is the design I referred to in Ian Bradley's book above. It was intended for a Drummond hand shaper.

Andrew.

[peak4Participant @peak4]

I've not made one with the round toolholder at the bottom yet, but I do have several of the Jones and Shipman American style lathe toolholders, which accept a length of HSS bar set an angle.
I've left and right hand ones as well as a couple which take parting blades.
Also have a straight one by DST Ltd of Brighouse, under a brand of Andycraft Series.

For photos, G&M are currently showing several varieties
https://gandmtools.co.uk/makers/jones-shipman/

or photos 5& 6 down this page on the right
http://www.vannattabros.com/shop4.html

I used the angled ones when I was roughing out the dovetails on some QD toolholders I made for the Warco GH 1330, though I did the final finishing with a conventional dovetail milling cutter in the Centec.

Bill

[peak4Participant @peak4]

For those with shapers, here's a couple of useful links
Kay Fisher's Metal Shaper Columns
http://www.neme-s.org/shapers/shaper_columns.html

Metal Shaper Literature.
http://www.circuitousroot.com/artifice/machine-shop/shaper/literature/index.html#unit-course-1944

Bill

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Andrew, I don't know what size of shaper you have but I use small 'J&S-type' cranked tool holders in my Acorn 7". You need ones that will fit the clapper tool slot of course. Mine take 1/4" tools but the shanks are quite thin too – I can't remember their make off-hand.

Any small change in setting the tools cutting angle wrt the work can be undertaken by moving the head. I guess the combination tool is convenent in the sense that you just have one tool to cut left & right etc – but I have a set of three small holders that essentially do the same thing. If you have to move the tool bit in the combi holder, then really it's just as easy (easier?) to just swop the holder – they will both have to be reset anyway, the transfer gauge mentioned recently being handy for this.

These type of holders aren't very popular these days and if you can find ones that will fit your shaper, they shouldn't be too expensive – I don't think mine were but it's been a while.

Regards,

IanT

[John OlsenParticipant @johnolsen79199]

There is a photo in my album of a selection of shaper tooling and I have just added one more of a J&S zero rake toolholder, good for shapers and also for brass in a lathe, you can more easily grind on a bit of negative rake for brass if the toolholder doesn't have lots of built in positive rake. From the first photo, car keys for scale only…The left hand tool is a home made brazed carbide tool, I find these work fine in a shaper. Then three old style gooseneck tools, also used on lathes back in the day before I was born. Not really needed if everything is nice and rigid. Then two of the type under discussion, both by J&S. The large one is actually too big for any of my shapers, but maybe one day I'll find something big enough. (It would need to be at least a 24" machine…)

The last photo is a J&S zero rake holder, it would be nice in my 18" machine but is just a little too wide for the lantern toolpost and I don't like to modify either of them

John

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