Sexism in engineering language

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

I suppose a stripped thread is BINARY ??

[NealebParticipant @nealeb]

When does “non-binary” become “analogue”? Sorry if that isn’t acceptable language – still trying to Woke up…

[Nealeb]

On Nealeb Said:

When does “non-binary” become “analogue”? […]

I think we are probably observing that process in action

The ‘community’ once known as LBGT has already evolved into LBGTQ+

… eventually this inclusivity might logically expand to include all options !

MichaelG.

.

Edit: __ that logic should of course soon include C

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender#:~:text=The%20prefix%20cis%2D%20is%20Latin,controversial%20and%20subject%20to%20critique.

[Michael Gilligan]

On Michael Gilligan Said:

On Nealeb Said:

When does “non-binary” become “analogue”? […]

 

MichaelG.

.

Edit: __ that logic should of course soon include C

 

Or even C++

JA (confused, as ever)

[Kiwi Bloke]

On Kiwi Bloke Said:

… I think that Alan’s point was that information is being manipulated and ‘weaponised’, by who knows whom, with the express purpose of de-stabilising the West. …

Alan, and others, are correct that the Western way of life is coming apart, but I suggest looking deeper than the likes of woke!

The west benefitted enormously from industrialisation powered by fossil fuels and the ready availability of cheap raw materials.   Economic growth in these circumstances is rather easy, with laissez-faire methods producing excellent results : the market responds to customer demand, so quality tends to improve whilst prices drop.

Problem is that circumstances change.   Starting in the 1950s, it became apparent that the UK’s local supply of coal and minerals were running out.   Bad news for heavy industry, because it’s very difficult to make steel profitably when the raw materials have to be imported.  As a result the UK moved from being the largest steel producer in the world, to one of the smallest.   And this change made life difficult for a bunch of other industries, so they too went downhill fast: shipbuilding, mining, electrical, cars, machine tools and many others.

Britain adapted by moving to a ‘Post Industrial’ economy, essentially not manufacturing low profit goods, and by expanding the service sector.   Interestingly, where Britain leads the way, other nations follow.  Twenty years later US and European economies have gone much the same way, by moving manufacturing to countries where costs are lower.

Although this system worked well, making us all rich, it is not sustainable.   The system is flawed in that it depends on continuous growth, and that isn’t sustainable.

First problem is that burning enormous quantities of fossil fuels is changing the climate.   Although many are in denial because the evidence isn’t bleeding obvious yet, climate change is already causing trouble and it’s going to get much much worse.   Mass emigrations and global food shortages etc.

Second problem is that the world’s natural resources are running out rapidly, which means that materials are going to get expensive.  This will be a major problem for future generations, who will rely almost entirely on recycling.  Oil is my greatest concern, because the world relies heavily on it being cheap and available in huge quantities.  That happy situation comes to an end in a few decades, not centuries, and policies that rely on cheap oil are doomed.

These are new problems, requiring new solutions.   Whilst the market and cutting taxation are a good ways of encouraging growth, they can’t fix climate change or a permanent rise in the cost of raw materials.  Denial and blaming others doesn’t help.    Nor does insisting on a narrow approach.   For example, people don’t want oil, they want cheap energy.   It doesn’t matter where the energy comes from.  The answer is obvious to me: stop clinging to oil, and switch to renewables.

The story of renewables is encouraging.  Despite determined resistance from fossil-fuel supporters and a multitude nay-sayers, renewable electricity is now the cheapest form available.  Humanity has the technology, what’s lacking is determination.

Alan is not wrong in the sense that the West is unpopular around the world, and that there are many governments and cultures keen to do us down.    Russia is an obvious example,  and the war in Ukraine is far more toxic than woke, as is China’s increasing international assertiveness.   Poor old grandad, believing the problem is language change and liberal attitudes, whilst the really big problems go unnoticed.    He’s upset about transgender issues, whilst I think UK defence spending should be tripled.   Failure to adapt and clinging to the past is destabilising, not Alan’s conspiracy.

Dave

[Andrew JohnstonParticipant @andrewjohnston13878]

I wonder how many of those responders commenting on transgender issues actually know anything about it? Here’s a close friend of mine who is non-binary:

Before anyone asks, yes she does know I am posting this picture and has no problem with it.

Andrew

[JAParticipant @ja]

A friend, a serious rider of British V-twin bikes, changed sex about 40 years ago. At the time, within that community, it was quite public. I found it, and still find it, very difficult. Treating, what is a very serious matter, it in a light-hearted manner was the way I coped.

Since then I worked with two engineers who had changed.

JA

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Nothing new in gender diversity.  As a young man I was sent on a database design course that mentioned Male/Female as an example of a data value that could be stored as a single binary bit.  My hand shot up, as did another guy’s.   He worked for the DHSS, and his database recognised 24 gender variations.   I was most put out because mine only had 22!

Gender diversity is just one of many ways in which people differ.   Unless they do something positively anti-social, treat others with respect, and never forget, we are all different.   Could be you who is first up against the wall when the revolution comes…

Dave

[Andrew Johnston]

On Andrew Johnston Said:

I wonder how many of those responders commenting on transgender issues actually know anything about it? …

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A timely and appropriate comment,  Andrew

My own very limited experience goes back to one individual at Kodak in the 1970s

John was in the process of becoming Jean and to their credit, the firm handled things very well.

It was, however, a presage of the complexity to come … and my main surprise disappointment  is that nearly half a century later things have not yet been rationalised.

My comment about the expansion of LBGT to LBGTQ+ and perhaps beyond was serious … The sooner we get over this naming nonsense, and everyone just treats people as people, the better the place will be.

MichaelG.

[Andrew JohnstonParticipant @andrewjohnston13878]

I met my first transexual in the late 1960s. They were an acquaintance of mum; as a woman she ran the Air Training Corp my mum joined in 1946. She was quite a bit older than my mum and was an ATA pilot during WW2. She later worked for the CAA. My mum got a letter in the late 1950s saying that she was transitioning to male, which is rarer. In the late 1960s we visited his house in Hampshire on the way to my grandparents. All I can remember is having strawberries and cream on the terrace. As an aside once she had transitioned she got a pay rise, as the CAA paid men and women differently for the same job.

Naturally we tend to concentrate on those who have transitioned. But there is a much wider community who don’t want, or need, to transition but are gender fluid, like my friend who inhabits two genders.

There are a myriad of acronyms to describe different groups these days and I certainly can’t keep up with it. In essence everyone is different and we occupy a multi-dimensional space when it comes to gender identity.

As is often the case with these things they get hijacked by self-appointed activists, who push a very narrow view and end up excluding many of the community that they purport to represent. Worse, the politicians often bow to the pressure groups rather than considering the wider community. Most people I know in the community just want to live their lives the way they want without interference and without affecting others. Fortunately attitudes are changing and the younger generations are much more open and accepting.

The really irritating thing is that my friend Julie is a better machinist than I am.

Andrew

[Andrew Johnston]

On Andrew Johnston Said:

I wonder how many of those responders commenting on transgender issues actually know anything about it? Here’s a close friend of mine who is non-binary:

Before anyone asks, yes she does know I am posting this picture and has no problem with it.

Andrew

I don’t want to be rude to your friend but how can he/she be both non-binary and transgender? If you don’t identify with either gender how can you then transition from one to the other?

This is the problem I have with the whole thing. None of it makes any sense. The wording in particular is ridiculous and I despise the ever encroaching agendas being pushed alongside by some of the more radical members of the community. One example being the demand for respect whilst simultaneously having zero respect for anyone who holds religious beliefs counter to their own.

What was wrong with just three, Male, Female, Transgender? That worked for decades until recently.

I would like to add, that I have absolutely no problem with your friend and would treat her/him as equally as I would treat anyone else.

 

[Andrew Johnston]

On Andrew Johnston Said:

[…]

As is often the case with these things they get hijacked by self-appointed activists, who push a very narrow view and end up excluding many of the community that they purport to represent. Worse, the politicians often bow to the pressure groups […]

I offer this as a glimmer of hope in the darkness of tunnel-vision:

.

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It’s in a civilised place, frequented by civilised people.

MichaelG.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

How do you get to 24 gender variations? With only X and Y chromosomes to create variations the most option should be 4 with a transition state to cover transitions in progress. LGBTQi seems to get up to 6 but I’m still rather short.

Anyway who is the most famous model engineer? Who hasn’t read a biography of LBSC? ‘Nuff said.

[Bazyle]

On Bazyle Said:

How do you get to 24 gender variations? With only X and Y chromosomes to create variations the most option should be 4 with a transition state to cover transitions in progress. LGBTQi seems to get up to 6 but I’m still rather short.

Anyway who is the most famous model engineer? Who hasn’t read a biography of LBSC? ‘Nuff said.

Here’s what Wikipedia list at the moment.

Although XY chromosomes set the scene, they aren’t the only factor by a long shot.  Physiologically, bodies are both male and female,  which is why grandad has nipples!  In terms of construction, males are modified females, not a different model.

Quite a lot of what happens to our bodies after birth depends on hormones.   Hormones are great fun, because anyone who believes that male/female is black and white can be given a quick course of jabs that will soon prove otherwise.    Any ‘real men’ fancy growing a pair of boobs and embracing their feminine side?   No problem!

On top of that we have upbringing, culture, and above all the brain.   And just to make the mix really complicated, add sex!   Sex and gender are not the same thing!

None of this is new – it goes back to the dawn of time.

Queen Victoria only refused to believe in Lesbians because her education hadn’t covered the subject!  Likewise, although intelligent and successful my dear old dad was an innocent abroad on this topic but at least he didn’t feel threatened by diversity.    A significant proportion of the population can’t cope, and attack anything they don’t understand, or they believe is outside their ignorant definition of ‘normal’.   They start at school by punching spectacle-wearing gingers and mostly grow up to become ill-informed adults who reject the need for tact.  Unfortunate some move on to hate crime, and there are plenty of politicians who will whip up prejudices as a way of gaining power.

General de Gaulle was XYY.

Dave

 

 

 

 

[Kiwi Bloke]

On Kiwi Bloke Said:

No, Kiwi Bloke is not trolling, … He may, however be a little bit guilty of dangling bait, to see what silly fish bite. …

That is trolling!

I believe that in UK, the police can feel your collar for so-called ‘hate crimes’. Fair enough, if a ‘hate crime’ involves hatefully bashing the local shop owner because he looks and sounds different. But it goes too far: the supposed ‘victim’ is given the right to decide whether they have been the victim of hate. If that is the ‘victim’s’ opinion, then it becomes an offence, even if it’s just the use of an unapproved word. It is impossible to defend one’s self against someone’s opinion – they have a right to their opinion, whether it’s based on fact or prejudice. …

Serious list of misunderstandings!

• They’re not ‘so called’ Hate Crimes, Hate Crimes are formally defined in Law.
• They are victims, not ‘victims’
• The victim does not decide what offence was committed.  The police investigate and, based on the evidence, decide what charges they will apply.   The evidence would have to satisfy, in police opinion, that this was legally a Hate Crime.
• The police consult the Crown Prosecution Service (Lawyers), who decide if the evidence is strong enough to get a conviction if the case goes to court.   They check that the evidence supports the police recommendation and meets legal criteria.  The CPP can alter the charges, perhaps demoting a hate crime to GBH, if the hate crime criteria aren’t met.   Or chuck the whole thing out
• If the CPP decide to proceed, then the case goes to trial where the prosecution have to prove the charges.

In the UK at least, I suggest there is little danger of being prosecuted for a Hate Crime in the absence of any evidence that the relevant law had been broken.

Could it the anti-woke movement are driven by the sort of misunderstandings described by Kiwi?  I feel that rather obviously positive social reforms are often blocked by small-c conservatives because they don’t understand how the world really works and assume all change is bad in case it bites them!  If I’m right, knee-jerk anti-woke is even more daft than woke extremism.

Dave

 

 

[Hollowpoint]

On Hollowpoint Said:

On Andrew Johnston Said:

…

 

…

This is the problem I have with the whole thing. None of it makes any sense. …

Nothing makes any sense unless the subject is studied, and there are many unknown unknowns.   And the more subjects are studied, the more complicated they get:

• Q. What is Steel?  A. An alloy of elements, mostly Carbon and Iron.
• Q. What’s an element?  A. A type of atom with a specific number of protons.
• Q. What’s an atom? A. Notionally the smallest particle of an element, but actually made of neutrons, protons and electrons.
• Q. What’s an electron?  A. A stable elementary particle in the lepton class
• Q. Is an electron an wave or a particle.  A. Definitely either…
• Q. What’s a lepton?

And then it starts to get complicated.

No-one knows everything there is to know about steel, which is at the simple end of my list.   For most ordinary purposes we only have to take advice on the subject.  But man-in-shed has to understand that whilst he only needs a superficial grip on the properties of steel, the designer of a nuclear dome, skyscraper or jet engine has to go much deeper, and will be supported by a large multi-disciplinary team.  Not a problem unless unqualified man-in-shed insists on recommending an alloy for next generation turbine blades in an engine that makes no sense to him.

When things don’t make sense to me I avoid decision making pending further research.

Just for fun, is the following statement banter or a deliberate insult?  ‘hollowpoint is a dumdum.’  I’ll leave it to hollowpoint to explain the word-play.

🙂

Dave

 

 

[SillyOldDuffer]

On SillyOldDuffer Said:

….‘hollowpoint is a dumdum.’

I get it!

Julie wasn’t insulted by the comment. I will answer on her behalf later this evening.

Andrew

[JAParticipant @ja]

Returning to Hopper’s original question I had the feeling that something was missing in the replies. Namely that sexist and inappropriate language is/was applied to ideas and specific items.

A very good example comes from the work of one of true and great petrol-heads, Beatrice Shilling. She was RAE Farnborough’s carburettor expert during WW2.

JA

[Hollowpoint]

On Hollowpoint Said:

I don’t want to be rude to your friend but how can he/she be both non-binary and transgender? If you don’t identify with either gender how can you then transition from one to the other?

The whole area of gender, as opposed to biological sex, is complex and adapts as attitudes change. Even biological sex not simple, as there are intersex people who can have physical characteristics associated with both biological sexes.

At one time transgender was generally taken to mean those who had transitioned from their birth sex to the opposite sex. It is now usually taken to cover anyone who isn’t cis, ie, who identifies with their biological birth sex. So it is now covers non-binary.

As I understand it from Julie she is biologically male but has never really felt particularly comfortable with that. However, she has learnt to cope and from a practical viewpoint within society it is often easier to wear the male persona. She is much happier as a female and switches when she can. So she is non-binary in that her gender is fluid and she presents as male or female as needed.

Hope that makes sense!

Andrew

[Andrew Johnston]

On Andrew Johnston Said:

[…] So she is non-binary in that her gender is fluid and she presents as male or female as needed.

Hope that makes sense!

I’m sure it makes sense to Julie … but doesn’t it raise an issue with this business of ‘personal pronouns’ ?

Does Julie get to choose which ‘preferred pronoun’ badge to wear or is there a “don’t care” option … I honestly don’t know.

MichaelG.

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Edit: __ this may answer my question:

https://www.stonewall.org.uk/workplace-trans-inclusion-hub/beginner’s-guide-pronouns-and-using-pronouns-workplace

… or it may just demonstrate the mess we’re in, with people trying too hard.

[JA]

On JA Said:

Returning to Hopper’s original question I had the feeling that something was missing in the replies. Namely that sexist and inappropriate language is/was applied to ideas and specific items.

A very good example comes from the work of one of true and great petrol-heads, Beatrice Shilling. She was RAE Farnborough’s carburettor expert during WW2.

JA

And the inventor of what those hilarious flyboys of the RAF termed “Miss Shilling’s Orifice”, a small fuel restrictor that allowed Spitfires to fly upside down etc without starving of fuel and crashing. Thus allowing them to win the Battle of Britain and others and pretty much save the nation.

I am sure if she had been a man, it would be known as Shilling’s Fuel Restrictor.

Not sure what she thought of it, presuming she knew. But she also raced Norton motorbikes so probably was not the sort of shrinking violet to take too much offence, especially with a war on and all. Bigger things to worry about.

Still, it seems rather rude and hopefully would not happen today. (But I am sure it would in some shop floor circles.) Although, it is still listed on Wikipedia as Miss Shilling’s Orifice so the term seems to have attained some sort of official status.

I would like to have met her. Sounds like quite the lady.

 

PS Look at the size of the front brake on that Manx Norton. Now that took, oh never mind…

[Michael Gilligan]

On Michael Gilligan Said:

On Andrew Johnston Said:

[…] So she is non-binary in that her gender is fluid and she presents as male or female as needed.

Hope that makes sense!

I’m sure it makes sense to Julie … but doesn’t it raise an issue with this business of ‘personal pronouns’ ?

Does Julie get to choose which ‘preferred pronoun’ badge to wear or is there a “don’t care” option … I honestly don’t know.

MichaelG.

.

Edit: __ this may answer my question:

https://www.stonewall.org.uk/workplace-trans-inclusion-hub/beginner’s-guide-pronouns-and-using-pronouns-workplace

… or it may just demonstrate the mess we’re in, with people trying too hard.

No comment on what Julie can or should do. That’s up to Julie.

But re the link on pronouns, it is all very well except that making up new pronouns runs into problems that the receiver has to know what the word means for them to understand what the sender is trying to say. If you make up new pronouns, that is not a shared language that will work with those not familiar with them.

And the they/them thing seems to be confusing in many contexts, making it sound like multiple people are involved when we are talking about only one. English has a singular non-gender pronoun, “it”. Why not embrace it?

I had my own go-around with such (pro)nouns with a woman from a government department recently. Asked for my personal details I supplied my marital status as “widower” to which she replied, “Oh, that is ‘widow’ these days”.

“No,” I said. “I am a bloke, I am a widower. If you say widow people will think I am a woman. I am not.”

She insisted the universal term today is widow. So my reply was “Widower is my preferred (pro)noun. I find widow extremely offensive and it makes me feel extremely uncomfortable and threatened. Please use my preferred (pro)noun of widower.”

Stunned silence leading to grudging acquiescence .

 

[Hopper]

On Hopper Said:

[…] English has a singular non-gender pronoun, “it”. Why not embrace it? […]

 

I briefly explored the idea of using “it” 25 years [maybe more] ago … at the time when we were being actively encouraged to use the term “Ms” and to litter our documents with terms like “She/He” or “[s]he” … The idea was rejected! presumably because “it” is not only gender-neutral, etc. but also encompasses “non-human”

MichaelG.

[Kiwi BlokeParticipant @kiwibloke62605]

Oh dear, a self-admitted Silly Old Duffer thinks my entirely non-offensive or provocative post was ‘trolling’. I disagree: it was not, by any reasonable definition. Perhaps he is a post-modern ‘Relativist’, who thinks it OK to re-define words in any way that suits his point of view. Rest assured, I mean no offence or disrespect, but this whole subject, perhaps founded on noble ideas, has become ridiculous.

It is OK, if you’re woke, to place someone into an identity category – say white, privileged, male member of the repressive colonial patriarchy – declare that such a group is unacceptable, and ‘cancel’ them. Because they claim you are a member of that unacceptable group, you have no say. Free speech is cancelled, whilst they whine about some imagined disrespectful adjective that has been applied to themself. And the Intersectionalists just make the whole thing laughable: the number of groups that can be cancelled is almost infinite.

SOD is, however, correct for pointing out my sloppy terminology. I meant to grumble about ‘Non-crime Hate Incidents’, not ‘hate crimes’. I accept hate crimes can be real, and undoubtedly occur, but these ‘Non-crime Hate Incidents’ are not properly defined in law, probably not fully understood by the police, are subjective, one cannot defend one’s self against an accusation, and goodness knows how the police cope with the task of being fair and reasonable to all parties. The problem is that, although not ‘crimes’, the incident may be recorded, and the ‘perpetrator’s’ record is besmirched. I gather that this does happen. How many steps toward a police state is that?

 

[SillyOldDuffer]

On SillyOldDuffer Said:

On Hollowpoint Said:

On Andrew Johnston Said:

…

 

…

This is the problem I have with the whole thing. None of it makes any sense. …

Nothing makes any sense unless the subject is studied, and there are many unknown unknowns.   And the more subjects are studied, the more complicated they get:

• Q. What is Steel?  A. An alloy of elements, mostly Carbon and Iron.
• Q. What’s an element?  A. A type of atom with a specific number of protons.
• Q. What’s an atom? A. Notionally the smallest particle of an element, but actually made of neutrons, protons and electrons.
• Q. What’s an electron?  A. A stable elementary particle in the lepton class
• Q. Is an electron an wave or a particle.  A. Definitely either…
• Q. What’s a lepton?

And then it starts to get complicated.

No-one knows everything there is to know about steel, which is at the simple end of my list.   For most ordinary purposes we only have to take advice on the subject.  But man-in-shed has to understand that whilst he only needs a superficial grip on the properties of steel, the designer of a nuclear dome, skyscraper or jet engine has to go much deeper, and will be supported by a large multi-disciplinary team.  Not a problem unless unqualified man-in-shed insists on recommending an alloy for next generation turbine blades in an engine that makes no sense to him.

When things don’t make sense to me I avoid decision making pending further research.

Just for fun, is the following statement banter or a deliberate insult?  ‘hollowpoint is a dumdum.’  I’ll leave it to hollowpoint to explain the word-play.

🙂

Dave

 

 

Typical word salad from someone who thinks he is more intelligent than he actually is, and an insult to boot. No very professional for a moderator representing model engineer.

But I guess that’s the left wing way. Pure narcissism. Why not just admit you can’t answer my question?

Afterall –

“When things don’t make sense to me I avoid decision making pending further research.”

Interesting you didn’t heed your own advice.

[Author]

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