Self adulation

[AndyfParticipant @andyf]

Well said, Tony. And as for the BBC analogy, the viewers have to pay, via the licence fee, for progammes to be made which they dislike, or can't even watch because they are at work.

Looking over this thread, it seems odd that what began with a criticism of a magazine article has, , seems to have developed at certain points into something of a slanging match between members of this forum.

Andy

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

I have just taken the dog for emptying. A mundane exercise that allows space for some philosophical thought.

I must admit the article in question made me feel uneasy.

I think that in the USA – the land where people you've barely met ask you your salaery as easily as we ask how someone is – it would have passed without comment.

In the UK we tend to be self effacing. Looking at model engineer articles, with the possible exception of LBSC, modesty is the byword. Especially, we rarely see people flaunting success outside the world of model engineering.

Alistair is clearly fortunate; it seems that he is also highly talented. It seems his dad has similar talent and has converted this into a succesful career. Unfortunately the writing style came across as 'I'm all right Jack' – the one style guaranteed to jar with a UK audience.

I don't begrudge Alistair (or Dad) good fortune, but I do think they live in a different world to some of us, and the article could have been written with a little more sensitivity to those of us who have to save up for even modest purchases.

Neil

[Tony JeffreeParticipant @tonyjeffree56510]

Posted by Graham Meek on 18/10/2012 19:24:08:

Hello Tony,

As one who does get of his A*** and scribe the odd line, I would whole heartedly agree but it is more a "labour of love", if one actually counts the pennies versus the hours spent writing and working on the projects, not to mention the overheads heating, lighting, materials etc, I am not going to get rich, but then it does give me an enormous amont of pleasure.

Gray –

You are of course right – there is pleasure to be had from the project itself and from writing the articles, as well as from the appreciation that some readers express.

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Hi Tony

Whilst I appreciated it no end I do recall a certain flurry of discontent in some quarters at your early writings!

Norman

PS There is no need to stand up when you write you know!

Edited By NJH on 18/10/2012 20:01:15

[Tony JeffreeParticipant @tonyjeffree56510]

Posted by NJH on 18/10/2012 20:00:23:

Hi Tony

Whilst I appreciated it no end I do recall a certain flurry of discontent in some quarters at your early writings!

Norman

PS There is no need to stand up when you write you know!

Hi Norman –

Actually it is some of my later writings that you refer to I believe…my first outbreak of writing for MEW was back in '97…

Regards,

Tony

P.S. True, but I do tend to find that getting to the workshop to finish a project is best done on my feet rather than my arse, unless it is late on a Friday evening after too many glasses of Milk of Amnesia…but then, you have to watch out for the swarf on the floor.

[Tony JeffreeParticipant @tonyjeffree56510]

Posted by Andyf on 18/10/2012 19:23:59:

Well said, Tony. And as for the BBC analogy, the viewers have to pay, via the licence fee, for progammes to be made which they dislike, or can't even watch because they are at work.

Actually it's worse than that. If I get a TV with the intent of watching everything else that is broadcast OTHER than by BBC, I STILL have to pay the license fee that supports the BBC. That is like having to pay a sub to EIM just so I can read (and pay for) MEW.

Regards,

Tony

[MACParticipant @mac53652]

Good God Tony, you don't honestly think I was comparing ME articles to programmes on our beloved gem, the BBC, do you!? Your sermon suggests such!

Just as a side note – OK, £50 a page. There are plenty of people who enrich TV programmes who earn £0 for it.

The analogy stands – I think you are confusing analogy with direct comparison :/.

Ho hum!

PS: The BBC is an absolute bargain.

PPS: Most countries have a TV licence fee, and in several that is just a fee to have a TV! 

Edited By MAC on 18/10/2012 23:50:27

[WindyParticipant @windy30762]

How about an article about model engineering enthusiasts who have very little in way of tools etc and what they have achieved.

Windy

[LambtonParticipant @lambton]

Having read all the posts to date I have now read the article in question.

I think it is excellent and do not like to see my fellow model engineers carping and sniping at others who have the drive and ability to do things differently to themselves.

My reasons for liking the article are:

• It describes a young man who has bags of determination, vision and undoubted ability who is aiming to produce a larger model than many twice his age would tackle.
• His parents obviously support his enthusiasm for a very worthwhile hobby that could, and probably will, lead to Alistair starting his own business in the not too distant future (rather than being unemployed like many unfortunate youngsters).
• There is obviously a strong father-son bond here. In this modern world many young men suffer from the lack of a strong and positive male role model in their family. Alistair is fortunate to have a Dad like his.
• Where the money to do the things described comes from is totally irrelevant and indeed is no one else's business.
• However financed, I can think of no better way of spending your money than creating a good workshop that will provide a lifetime of pleasure and perhaps a profitable business. The fact that Alistair is able do this at his age is something for us all to be pleased about.
• Yes the article was different from the normal ME ones but what is wrong with that? I often think the ME could do with an occasional change from the normal construction and "day out" articles good as they mostly are. DC1 and DC2 have done a good job in publishing this heartwarming article.

Finally I am very disappointed with some of the unkind and unnecessary remarks made by my fellow model engineers about this particular article and its author. I also do not like the nit picking concerning minor spelling & punctuation mistakes made by other contributors to this thread. We all make such mistakes from time to time.

( I have absolutely no connexion with the author of this article or his son).

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

I agree with Lampton in his analysis of the article details, however the real nub of the argument "against" it is, it was too long!

[Tony JeffreeParticipant @tonyjeffree56510]

Posted by MAC on 18/10/2012 23:46:05:

Good God Tony, you don't honestly think I was comparing ME articles to programmes on our beloved gem, the BBC, do you!? Your sermon suggests such!

 

Mac –

Yes, that is exactly what you were doing, if you take the trouble to read the words you wrote. If you intended to convey something different, you might try using different words in a different order. 

Regards,

Tony

Edited By Tony Jeffree on 19/10/2012 09:49:24

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by Tony Jeffree on 19/10/2012 09:45:31:

Posted by MAC on 18/10/2012 23:46:05:

Good God Tony, you don't honestly think I was comparing ME articles to programmes on our beloved gem, the BBC, do you!? Your sermon suggests such!

Mac –

… If you intended to convey something different, you might try using different words in a different order.

Regards,

Tony

Edited By Tony Jeffree on 19/10/2012 09:49:24

Reminds me of Morecambe & Wise, "I'm playing all the right notes – but not necessarily in the right order". Very funny.

Martin.

[Anonymous]

I'll second Lampton's analysis, it's a well argued and fair statement.

However, I would take slight issue with the point on spelling and grammar. I agree that everybody makes the occasional error. But it is rather sad that some posts on this forum are so littered with errors as to render the post unreadable.

It's strange that errors in an engineering drawing seem to attract opprobium on this forum, but errors in the written word are seen as acceptable. Both are methods of communication, and if either are littered with errors then it is likely that the message will be lost.

Regards,

Andrew

[LambtonParticipant @lambton]

I urge all persons using the forum to click on the ABC spell checker and select Enable SCAYT before writing their posting. It is in the top tool bar just to the left of centre.

Doing this gets rid of most of the spelling an other errors.

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Hey Martin

Reminds me of Morecambe & Wise, "I'm playing all the right notes – but not necessarily in the right order".

This was brought home to me quite forcibly recently.

I've always had a desire to play the piano so I decided that, at my advanced age, I'd better do something about it before it is too late so I enrolled for some lessons. I can assure you that "All the right notes – but not necessarily in the right order" is a pretty good description – although I also include a few of the wrong notes! Let me tell you – it 'aint funny!

Norman

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Posted by Lambton on 19/10/2012 11:00:38:

I urge all persons using the forum to click on the ABC spell checker and select Enable SCAYT before writing their posting. It is in the top tool bar just to the left of centre.

Doing this gets rid of most of the spelling an other errors.

 

To follow your comment Mr L – and this is not a criticism of what you wrote – There is a difference between the odd typo which we all make from time to time and habitual bad spelling and grammar. For some typo happens occasionally , for others (a minority) bad spelling happens all the time. One of the most blaring typos I cam across was in the corporate letter heading of a famous insurance company, the name which was on all the letters sent out, was, 'The Pudential'. It was not until I pointed it out to them that they noticed. I would have thought that the intelligent folk who use this site are able to make the distinction between bad spelling/grammar and typos.

As for a spell checker, don't trust them implicitly. To misquote that old joke:

I halve a spelling Chequer,

it came with my pea sea………..

……..Eye am shore your pleased two no
Its letter perfect awl the weigh
My chequer tolled me sew.

As for the article, if the lad has a generous dad that's his good fortune and if he starts a business so be it, most successful businesses are started by folk who had a privileged youth, the right school, a rich dad etc helps enormously. Comparatively few start from a poor background. However one workshop is not a celebration for the future of our hobby as several have maintained, one lucky/privileged young man will not a hobby make. If the facilities were there for many, rather than one it could make a difference, e.g. in a school, or youth activity centre.

Personally I thought the article was a waste of space. I didn't need the best part of a page to tell me how to negotiate a move for a large miling machine, if he had done it himself with tube rollers or skates and crowbars that would be interesting, but no, the wallet came out. I would rather the space be allocated to more interesting stuff.  If not articles on models, then a bit of engineering history, or more museum visits, I would rather see how a great Engineer (such as Maudslay or Whitworth) affected our future rather than a vainglorious self promotion.

That is simply my personal position as a paying customer of the magazine.

Regards

Terry

Edited By Terryd on 19/10/2012 11:36:04

[Tony JeffreeParticipant @tonyjeffree56510]

Posted by Lambton on 19/10/2012 11:00:38:

I urge all persons using the forum to click on the ABC spell checker and select Enable SCAYT before writing their posting. It is in the top tool bar just to the left of centre.

Doing this gets rid of most of the spelling an other errors.

 

I wander if that is the reel solution to the problem – the spelling of all of these worms seams to be perfectly grate to me…

It failed to fix the "an" in your last sentence for example…

Regards,

Tony

Edited By Tony Jeffree on 19/10/2012 11:35:28

Edited By Tony Jeffree on 19/10/2012 11:36:05

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

I note that Mr Jeffree propagates the same nonsense that many others do – viz. one pays for the Beeb but the commercial channels are "FREE"

What a terrible load of tosh – it may have passed his notice that what passes for independent programming is CONSTANTLY interrupted by prolonged repetitive rubbish attempting to inveigle the watcher to purchase yet more unnecessary 'things' or 'goods'!!

Perhaps he would care to enlighten us as to how he believes this invasive claptrap is financed??? One might hazard a guess that the various advertisers extract the cost FROM THEIR CUSTOMERS via the purchase price. Could, of course, be that the generous and open-hearted owners, directors, shareholders, whatever, pay for them out of their own pockets! Which, do you feel, is the likeliest option? Still, Beeb-bashing is a jolly good sport and one shouldn't let the facts get in the way of a populist rant.

Ther IS a choice as regards paying the licence fee – if it offends you, don't watch TV. Heaven knows there are enough intelligent alternatives available nowadays. If, however, you consider value against 'goods' received, just one season of the Proms does it quite nicely for me, thank you.

Rgds

Bill

[Tony JeffreeParticipant @tonyjeffree56510]

Posted by Cornish Jack on 19/10/2012 11:41:01:

I note that Mr Jeffree propagates the same nonsense that many others do – viz. one pays for the Beeb but the commercial channels are "FREE"

Mr Jack –

Don't put your words in my mouth.

I said nothing of the kind. I have made absolutely no observations whatever on how the other TV channels are funded, and frankly, it is an insult to my intelligence (and everyone else's for that matter) for you to imply that I am dumb enough not to figure out how the other TV channels make their money.

Regards,

Tony

[LambtonParticipant @lambton]

Tony,

"I wander if that is the reel solution to the problem – the spelling of all of these words seams to be perfectly good to me…>>

It failed to fix the "an" in your last sentence for example…"

>>

I was just trying to be helpful – not clever!

I think it is time for everyone to stop the sniping at others and concentrate on making meaningful contributions.

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

IF I misunderstood what was written, then an apology is due and unequivocally offered. However, given this quote …

"Actually it's worse than that. If I get a TV with the intent of watching everything else that is broadcast OTHER than by BBC, I STILL have to pay the license fee that supports the BBC.(my editing) That is like having to pay a sub to EIM just so I can read (and pay for) MEW." …

I have considerable difficulty in translating that into other than a rant at the licence fee. Maybe, in addition to a spoil chickenthe forum needs a device to generate "What the general really meant to say was …"

Rgds (and no further input)

Bill

[Tony JeffreeParticipant @tonyjeffree56510]

Posted by Cornish Jack on 19/10/2012 13:36:08:

IF I misunderstood what was written, then an apology is due and unequivocally offered. However, given this quote …

"Actually it's worse than that. If I get a TV with the intent of watching everything else that is broadcast OTHER than by BBC, I STILL have to pay the license fee that supports the BBC.(my editing) That is like having to pay a sub to EIM just so I can read (and pay for) MEW." …

I have considerable difficulty in translating that into other than a rant at the licence fee. Maybe, in addition to a spoil chickenthe forum needs a device to generate "What the general really meant to say was …"

You know Jack. that was the most equivocal apology that I have read in a long time.

You did misunderstand. I just said so.

So on top of delivering one lot of undeserved personal attacks, you compound that with an "apology" that, reading between the lines, says "I don't believe you".

Words fail me.

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Posted by Lambton on 19/10/2012 09:11:27:

Having read all the posts to date I have now read the article in question.

I think it is excellent and do not like to see my fellow model engineers carping and sniping at others who have the drive and ability to do things differently to themselves.

………………………………..

Finally I am very disappointed with some of the unkind and unnecessary remarks made by my fellow model engineers about this particular article and its author. I also do not like the nit picking concerning minor spelling & punctuation mistakes made by other contributors to this thread. We all make such mistakes from time to time.

( I have absolutely no connexion with the author of this article or his son).

Hi Mr L, (pity you don't give us a name)

I have no disagreements about your 'analysis' of the article, but most contributors to this thread are complaining that it is an unsuitable subject for a full six page inclusion in a magazine, where perhaps there are other subjects we would like to read about other than cheque book modelling, as it has been described by others.

However I do disagree about spelling and punctuation not to mention grammar. They have been established to aid communication. If you don't agree try reading Ulysses by James Joyce, not many finish it.  Of course no one bothers about the odd mistake or typo here or there or the odd apostrophe missed or added needlessly but some postings are riddled with awful spelling, atrocious punctuation and terrible grammar. So bad as to not be understandable without a great deal of effort. My grammar is not perfect but I usually put a good deal of thought into a message before posting. I try to keep my text readable by using reasonable punctuation, I check spellings I'm unsure about (admittedly the odd typo worms it's way in at times) and use a spell checker, but they are not always reliable. Most folks prefer to have things pointed out constructively rather than continually embarrassing themselves, a bit like having your flies open, i.e. constructive criticism.

If you don't like it, that's your right. But your personal likes and dislikes are of little concern to me.

Best Regards

Terry

Edited By Terryd on 19/10/2012 16:55:47

[NJHParticipant @njh]

To get back to the substance of the thread…

I have now returned from my local newsagent and read the "offending" article in full. I really enjoyed it and certainly didn't find it too long. OK it's different from the usual contributions but I find it an inspirational tale which made me laugh in places. How nice to hear of an enthusiastic youngster supported by his parents and encouraged to persue his interests. I am able to empathise with Clive – I have three kids (well a good bit more than kids now!) – and I recognise the enthusiasms and assurance of the young that drags we Dads into all sorts of uncharted areas. ( For example one of mine was a swimmer and so Dad "became" a qualified Official, Teacher and Coach – getting up at 6am on winter mornings – in support of those activities!)

Alistair is a lucky lad to have this support and encouragement from his family. They in turn should enjoy and value this time spent with him as they watch him develop and expand his knowledge and interests. I do note that the chest of drawers in his bedroom has been " made redundant when his bedroom was remodelled into the current passion parlour " !! – so make the most of this time with him before "life" with all it's trials and responsibilities takes over.

Regards

Norman

Edited By NJH on 19/10/2012 17:00:33

[joegibParticipant @joegib]

Edited By joegib on 19/10/2012 17:22:51

Edited By joegib on 19/10/2012 17:23:47

Edited By joegib on 19/10/2012 17:26:54

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