Self adulation

[Martin WParticipant @martinw]

Well put Ady, money can't buy one skill it has to be learnt and there is only one way practice and more practice.

Cheers

Martin

[AndyfParticipant @andyf]

I don't really see what the fuss is about. I buy The Times every day, but don't read half of it, and half of what I do read would make me a bit cross if I was of a less phlegmatic disposition. The crossword suits me, though.

In the main, hobby magazines rely on their readers for copy. If subscribers don't like what' they read, they can always submit their own articles.

Andy

[MACParticipant @mac53652]

Posted by Andyf on 18/10/2012 00:17:50:

I don't really see what the fuss is about. I buy The Times every day, but don't read half of it, and half of what I do read would make me a bit cross if I was of a less phlegmatic disposition. The crossword suits me, though.

In the main, hobby magazines rely on their readers for copy. If subscribers don't like what' they read, they can always submit their own articles.

Andy

 

I'm sorry but that's rubbish. When you pay for something, you are entitled to complain about it.

 

Just take the BBC. If you saw something on there you felt miffed at, yes you can switch to BBC2 – or you could complain/comment, quite within your rights. How would you feel if the BBC's reply was "make your own film and send it to us"?

 

That's a really crazy argument.

Edited By MAC on 18/10/2012 00:28:35

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Ady

Same hobby – different folk get different pleasures from it and have different amounts of cash and time to devote to it. I bet you do get a lot of pleasure from your kit – I know I do from mine. I started out with a very old and worn Myford ML4 and, over the years, as circumstances and surplus cash allowed I have " progressed ". The amount of fun was as much with the old stuff as it is now with much better gear. If ever I have unlimited funds I do have a "wish list" of exotic machinery but I doubt it would be any more fun.

David – one positive from this thread that started in such a negative way – I will go out tomorrow and buy a copy of ME so that I can read the article.!

Jason – thanks for the link to the Traction Talk forum. Whilst I'm extremely unlikely ever to build a Traction engine I have signed up as I see there is much of interest there.

Norman

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

At the end of the day you've got to be a certain breed of nutter to do this stuff

You can take a horse to water… but you can't make it drink

After I got my Drummond home I then spent the following evening lugging about a quarter of a ton of cast iron up to my chosen "workshop"

I'm no spring chicken and as I stood there puffing and observing this big pile of metal I had just hoofed up the stairs I suddenly had what can be described as a crisis

As I stood staring at this huge pile of scrap I genuinely believed that I might just be a bit of a headcase. No NORMAL person would do this!

Took me about a day to get over it, I've never had a crisis before

You don't have to be mad to do this stuff, but it sure does help

[Gone AwayParticipant @goneaway]

Posted by MAC on 17/10/2012 22:19:34:

But he knew when he'd bought it! It's like saying my child is some 8 years old.

No doubt he did know but unless it was precisely three years to the day (unlikely), it's quite legitimate to say "approximately three years" (or "some three years"  ). Better than something like "2 years, 11 months 1-1/2 days" which is stuffy and over-precise.

Likewise, your child. (Of course if your child is 8 years old today, happy birthday to him/her )

Edited By Sid Herbage on 18/10/2012 00:54:52

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Leave the lad alone, he's trying really hard and I'm just about to flog him a set of knocked off BOC bottles for his boiler making.

Can't make an honest farthing no how with you lot of whinging flat earthers

John S.

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi Ady 1

We don't use filler up articles.

The Waggon article the lad did was so good they republished it in Engineering in Miniature.

regards David

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

And so we go from Self Adulation to Self Flagellation.

Martin.

Edited By blowlamp on 18/10/2012 08:39:42

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by blowlamp on 18/10/2012 08:37:04:

And so we go from Self Adulation to Self Flagellation.

Martin.

.

I think we had better stop there or Diane is going get get left out

John S.

[Diane CarneyModerator @dianecarney30678]

Posted by Ady1 on 17/10/2012 23:48:18:

He'll never have that pleasure because everything will be top dollar spanky new

Was the acquired milling machine – which was probably the reason for his dad sitting down to write the article in the first place – brand new? I'm pretty sure it was a 'lucky find'. Yes, he worked and saved up for a new lathe and yes, he probably got some help with it. He's a lucky lad but he certainly seems to be one who appreciates what he's got!

[colin hawesParticipant @colinhawes85982]

Having used machinery dated from c1890 to todays date including CNC and treadle lathes I feel no envy for anyone who has all the most expensive modern equipment but get great pleasure in using my old machinesand see no advantage in buying new, often noisier, machines.It's the end result that counts.It's supposed to be a hobby not a production shop!

[Laurence BParticipant @laurenceb]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 17/10/2012 16:58:20:

Dear oh dear, what a lot of curmudgeons.

Andrew

I think Andrew Johnson is quite right here,this isn't about the number of pages devoted to the subject,these complaints look like the politics of envy.

O.K., so Clive Cook and his son don't seem to be short of a bob or two.So what?Good luck to them.

The editor is right when he says youngsters need all the encouragement they can get,as it seems very few youngsters seem all that interested in the hobby.

And the editor relies on submissions made by model engineers.So maybe those complaining about this atricle should put pen to paper themselves-if they think they could do better!

Finally,I thought the article was very interesting.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by NJH on 18/10/2012 00:29:43:

Jason – thanks for the link to the Traction Talk forum. Whilst I'm extremely unlikely ever to build a Traction engine I have signed up as I see there is much of interest there.

Norman

Yes there is plenty to read through there, make sure you go to the Model Engines section, the build diaries there all make for good reading particularly some of the 6" builds. Infact there are several "lads" at college or uni who are making 4" to 6" engines, I also suspect a fit 17-19year old would be as capable if not more so of managing the work on his own that a 70year old. There are even ladies making 6" GMTs, what would Bob think of that

As for all this talk of new machines, as far as I could tell the only bit of new machinery was the lathe, everything else mentioned was at least second hand.

As I said on TT the article was probably a bit long winded and maybe more suited to MEW but at least the six pages would have generated 10% of the budget

J

[Anonymous]

Posted by Diane Carney on 18/10/2012 09:03:51:

Was the acquired milling machine – which was probably the reason for his dad sitting down to write the article in the first place – brand new?

I'd guarantee that the mill is at least secondhand. I'm not sure when Adcock & Shipley stopped making horizontal mills, but I'd guess in the 1980s. My Adcock & Shipley 'Bridgeport' manual shows a picture of a 2E looking a bit old fashioned; the manual is dated 1978.

I've had an A&S 2E for some years now; and it has proved to be a very useful machine. There's no substitute for rigidity and horsepower when it comes to metal removal rates; makes the Bridgeport look distinctly wishy-washy. I paid £150 for my 2E, from a dealer; a real bargain. Just because a machine tool is big and/or industrial doesn't mean it has to be expensive.

Regards,

Andrew

PS: I'd refute the comment by MAC on East Cambridgeshire, quite the reverse; but then I would say that as I live west of Cambridge! Despite the best efforts of the 'developers' Cambridgeshire is still quite a rural county.

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

Bazyle – read through that correspondence just a couple of nights ago. Similar sort of furore and (I can't be bothered to buy a ME to check!) probably just about as relevant.

This is a HOBBY! … just like Golf, Cart racing, Gliding etc., etc. Vast variations in costs involved – check parental input to the various teenage passions – horse riding et al. Likelihood of a continuing interest in ME by subject youth?? … who knows and, frankly, who cares, other than those directly involved.

The young Appleyard(??) mentioned by Bazyle hasn't (as far as I know) featured heavily in the hobby recently so maybe yet another passing enthusiasm? Each to his/her own and "lots of dosh does not an engineer make" to paraphrase someone or other!!

Rgds

Bill

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Yes Bill

My sentiments too – it is a HOBBY! I've been through Gliding, Swimming, Golf ( briefly and badly!) , serious D-I-Y / refurbishment (of necessity!) and I've enjoyed them all but Model Engineering has remained for 50 years or so. I'm not especially good at it but I do get a deal of satisfaction from it and I would wish others to get that same satisfaction. I guess we all have different amounts of cash that we can devote to our hobbies but does the guy who can afford to allocate say £10k a year to his hobby enjoy it any more than someone who has to scratch around scrounging materials and adapting his working methods to old machinery?

We all have different resources, different aims and different satisfactions. Young folk are rare in the hobby ( they may have more interesting options available!) but they should be encouraged. Good on you Alastair and good luck in this fascinating subject.

Regards

Norman

[dazz dazzParticipant @dazzdazz87636]

Reading this thread has forced me to add my comments

How many people who are complaining have actually wrote an article for publication, i used to write technical articles for a magazine, and was lucky enough to be able to describe things so a beginner could understand it and an experienced person could also read it and pick up a few tips (it's a very difficult balance to achieve), the difference between me and the person writing the article in ME is age and life experience, another difference is how the English language has evolved over the years (imo for the worse), a lot of teenagers these days speak and write in text speak (which i hate with a vengeance) and also tailor their speech to regional dialect or how their peers speak, we might not like it but its the way it is.

I was blessed in ways a lot of my friends were not even as a young un in the 70's kids wanted the latest fads, my friends all had expensive bikes to ride my dad (RIP) bought me a broken bike and a set of spanners, so i had to repair my own bike where all my friends had the luxury of taking theirs to the local shop (im sure many other readers were poor), although at the time i was being taught a valuable lesson, some of those friend still ring me now along the lines of can you fix this.

Someone mentioned the lads building a traction engine, can the lad not have a dream, in metalwork at school i used to take motorcycle part in to work on ,someone in our class build a traction engine he did most of the casting in school and only bought stuff in when he had the money, the engine was completed in 3 years of lessons,lunch times and after-school activities, kids today don't have that luxury.

Likewise most kids of today are more interested in the latest gameboxes, clothes and facebook. than actually expending effort on doing something practical and if those kids said dad can you get me a lathe the reaction would be no i can't but you can have the latest games console.

In this instance you have a kid who's dad has got him some kit and his helping him learn to use his hands, as for money you would be surprised what kids can earn today if they have the desire to get out and do something.

One thing i will say is if someone pans something you have wrote it's very easy to take those comments to heart, me i'm big enough and ugly enough to take criticism good or bad, but at 16 i wasn't and would have stopped writing.

So the article wasn't for you and quite rightly it your right to complain, but instead of complaining in the public domain why not take pen to paper and write to the editor (to be passed on to the kid) a constructive critique on why the article was not for you with some positive ways to make future writings more appealing to a wider audience, bear in mind the guys age and the intended audience, In time im sure he will develop a style of writing thats appealing to both young and old, at the end of the days its encouraging that young people are taking up the hobby and willing to share their experiences and dreams, its also easy to say when i was i a teenager i would have wrote it in a different way well maybe you would as standards were different then and lets be honest how many teenagers can sit and write one page of text yet alone 5 or 6, lastly he's earnt some money to buy more stuff with

Regards
inee

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Dazz dazz, written by his Dad, not "the kid" if you look at the intro header.

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Dazz Dazz,

You seem very confident of your ability to write concisely and clearly, but I'm not sure about your use of English. Sentences a whole paragraph long? Use of 'wrote' instead of 'written', overuse of commas and the lowercase i for the personal pronoun I. Poor spelling e.g. 'earnt' instead of 'earned'. Not to mention variable use of the apostrophe.

There is also your hatred of text speak having already used 'imo' a typical abbreviation for text use. Admittedly the Victorians used abbreviations in their written work extensively, it was simply their form of 'text speak'

I could rant on, as you did, but have to add that you must have had a very good editor when having articles published.

Further I'm not sure where you have obtained your data from, but to generalise as you do about young people today is wrong. I taught 11 to 18 yr olds for many years and can tell you that given the opportunity they love being practical and creating things. Unfortunately the vast majority do not have the opportunities that the lucky young man in the article has. School workshops have been closing since the educational changes of the 1980s and there are few Engineering opportunities. How can they be practical?

Regards

Terry

Edited By Terryd on 18/10/2012 14:31:43

[dazz dazzParticipant @dazzdazz87636]

Terry

i must appologise for the one or two spelling mistakes,but down here we never say earnt or turned even it's always turnt or earnt, the imo was totally my fault as the door knocked and I abreiviated before answering and forgot to change it. Whilst I agree school workshops as we know them are on the decline. Schools today have extensively equipped workshops but the kids can't use the tools as freely as we could.

Opertunities to do practical stuff is out there for kids but they have to go and seek them. My data on kids of today comes from my teenage stepchildrens friends and spending a lot of time over the years working around schools and colleges. The only things that were edited in my articles was use or regional dialogue

Regards

inee (not the best speller in the world)

[VersabossParticipant @versaboss]

Terry, you saved my day with your comment above. I had real difficulties to read this sermon, which made me almost dizzy-dizzy or rather dazzy-dazzy. Now I know that maybe the 'one sentence = one paragraph' seems to be a wide-spread evil; just have a look at the pages from BBC we see here quite often. I believe this comes from the tabloid papers, and it goes much in this direction here also.

I was very reluctant to write a comment here, but as you started I feel in good company .

Dazz Dazz, read better papers and books and memorize the style! and grammar (my 2 pence). I had to do that also, 50 years ago.

Greetings, Hansrudolf (no native English speaker)

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Posted by dazz dazz on 18/10/2012 15:06:52:
……………….

Opertunities to do practical stuff is out there for kids but they have to go and seek them. My data on kids of today comes from my teenage stepchildrens friends and spending a lot of time over the years working around schools and colleges.

Regards

inee (not the best speller in the world)

Hi Dazz Dazz,

I can't agree with you on this matter. I have taught mostly adolescents for 35 years, and have taught and worked with many thousands, as well as lecturing in the evenings. Most school workshops sold their equipment in the 80s and 90s to make way for other curriculum developments. That is why there are so many Boxfords and Colchester Students not to mention FlameFast foundry equipment adn forges such as was highlighted in the article on the market. I have seen many schools denuded of their workshop equipment and replaced with computer and CNC equipment in a few cases, 'Blue Peter' technology in others.

There is work on robotics and automation eetc but this is usually based on Lego or (in the better schools) Fischer Technik. The emphasis being on design in the modern curriculum, not on how materials behave and are manipulated. This leadds to unrealistic ideas of what can be made. The subject of Engineering technoology as we understand it, is more or less extinct in schools for all practical purposes. Young people generally see Engineering as using computers and CNC.

You are very lucky in your area to have opportunities for young people to use machines and make things. Around here thare are no evening classes and only a couple of clubs, one 6 miles away and the other 15 miles away and these clubs are not really welcoming places for most youngsters. Of course they also like games and playstations, so do I, I've been playing computer games for 30 years, they are nothing new. There is nothing wrong with that as long as it does not become obsessive. Most obsessives are in their 20s and 30s.

Regards

Terry

[Cornish JackParticipant @cornishjack]

Just an interesting follow-up in respect of 'cheque book model engineering' – Full set of Myford 7 collets just sold on Ebay for … £322.00!!!!!!!! NOT a misprint. Product of a bidding war, no doubt, but I would think that they were somewhat cheaper when new!!

Am I jealous?? … you're bxxxxy right, I am

Rgds

Bill

[Tony JeffreeParticipant @tonyjeffree56510]

Posted by MAC on 18/10/2012 00:27:57:

I'm sorry but that's rubbish. When you pay for something, you are entitled to complain about it.

Just take the BBC. If you saw something on there you felt miffed at, yes you can switch to BBC2 – or you could complain/comment, quite within your rights. How would you feel if the BBC's reply was "make your own film and send it to us"?

That's a really crazy argument.

Ho hum…here we go again…

Comparing programmes on the BBC to articles in ME/MEW is comparing apples with chimpanzees – the situation isn't the same at all.

The BBC has sufficient financial clout to commission material and pay proper commercial rates for it; the economics of running a specialist mag like ME/MEW means that they simply cannot do the same.

Current going rate for a MEW article is £50/page (I don't know if ME is the same – never wrote anything for it because I don't own the right anorak/engine driver's hat). From personal experience of writing the occasional article for MEW (!), the time taken to generate an article, including the time to do the project that the article is about, is of the order of 2-3 days per page of magazine copy. So we're looking at a rate of £2/hour – maybe less depending on the complexity of the project. And of course MEW doesn't re-imburse the cost of the machinery, tools, materials, etc. etc. that are involved; that is down to the author. Now if David came to me and said "Tony, I would like to commission an article from you on building XXX", the situation would be rather different; for starters, I absolutely wouldn't settle for anything less than minimum wage (currently £6.19/hour over 21), so the page rate would suddenly go up by a factor of 3, and David would also have to sub me the cost of machinery, tools, materials…etc…assuming of course that I was prepared to write said article for the minimum wage, which in general I would not be (my hourly rates are a tad higher than that). If the mag was to pay page rates that were truly "commercial" then you would probably be talking about another factor of 3, so maybe £400/page would be more realistic. With the resultant hike in the production costs, the mag would have to pass it on in the form of a significant increase in the cover price – I'm sure that DC could opine on what that would be, but I am sure that the resultant outcry and loss of subscribers would be problematic. So commissioning articles on any kind of commercial basis is just simply a non-starter – end of.

So the ONLY way that these magazines can hope to continue is on the basis of readers writing articles about stuff they were going to do anyway, because it is their hobby, and they treat the £50/page that they get in return as a way of reducing the cost of their hobby rather than an income. That approach obviously has problems associated with it; firstly, DC can only select articles from what people send him, and secondly, the quality of the material will inevitably be variable, because the writers are (with a few exceptions) not professional writers. So some of the articles will need professional copy editing, but generally that is WAY less cost/time intensive than commissioning work from scratch.

The bottom line here: If you, the readers of the magazine, don't get off your arses and write articles, then the magazine dies for lack of material. If the readers of the magazine don't like what other people have written when *they* have made the effort to get off *their* arses to write articles, then they only have themselves to blame.

Still believe its a crazy argument? If you do, then YOUR argument seems to be in favour of closing down the magazine. Now that is TRULY crazy.

Regards,

Tony

Edited By Tony Jeffree on 18/10/2012 17:42:09

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