seig SX3 dead???

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

.

Is the motor fitted a brushed or brushless one.?

There have been considerable developments to machines from the Orient in recent years. They may 'look' the same piece of kit but under the skin there have been developments. This is certainly the case in motor control.

Also different importers have different requirements from the factory. This is sometimes more than the colour it's painted.!

If Axminster will not help you then having met Keatan from ARC I am fairly sure he will, even though the machine was not originally purchased from him. – He seems to look at the big picture of assisting others in that he values his ongoing reputation image.

Many importers are basically 'box shifters' – They have no backup plan when things go wrong. There are however many people here willing to help you.

Nick

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Sorted.J

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by daz nosworthy on 01/01/2015 12:38:29:

not to point any fingers, but it does amaze me that in this internet age that you can not expect a customer to go out looking for answers when the importers wash there hands of you, I appreciate this is a complex issue and rather uncommon by the sounds of it, but nevertheless shows a fundamental flaw in design

at the end of the day I just want my mill back, got loads to do and little time and this break was a great opportunity to make up time..gutted

Edited By daz nosworthy on 01/01/2015 12:45:38

Daz,

Internet age or otherwise, no importer wants to 'wash their hands of you', be it Axminster or anyone else. There is help available from one source or another. We are serving a predominantly hobby market where price is a big issue. We are not XYZ or Denford supplying to industry against service contracts and high price tags to answer your call overnight. As you said, if you want that, it costs money. I also understand that your fustration is directed at Axminster.

On this thread, you first mentioned X3, made a comment about what ARC apparently said – which we didn't, etc.etc., and then you say that we importers should take notice about a design flaw. Well, I have given you a clear explanation where I have suggested that the problem you have had is rare. If there is a flaw, then you have to wonder why the other 999+ SX3 machines have not failed. Either we are all taking crap (which is also possible), or there is something wrong in your particular case/situation. I have not make any presumptions about you, so I feel it is wrong for you to make presumptions and sweeping statements about the SX3 or importers in general. Every customer has a liking or disliking for particular importers. There are people on here who ARC have offended too. I see their heads nodding vertically as they read this thread

I understand your frustration at being unable to carry out the work you were intending to do. We all have such days, but how is firing away at the importers going to solve your problem?

May be someone on here with knowledge of circuit boards might be able to help you out. You never know. You could save some money, but it isn't going to solve your problem overnight. This is a hobby.

Ketan at ARC

Edited By Ketan Swali on 01/01/2015 13:30:21

[daz nosworthyParticipant @daznosworthy]

Hi Nick, yes, brushless 1000w DC…

as said, I suspect Les's ideas about the board are correct, tho I am happy to send one out for a breakdown in design, it may also explain why all the boards seem to be fried, the main L1 connection to the PCB reads as live all the others dead, whether its possible to have a leak via earth that would blow thru all the 5V at once I have no idea, also a motor short issue may feed earth and perhaps the board??

I am far from an expert on this stuff, cant see this going any further without expert investigation, I am going to take the motor off and see what Ketan can do to help

gotta say this to be fair…ARC have been great from the start, I explained myself, told them it wasn't there's, expected to get a 'bugger off..' but they were very helpful and professional, never heard of Arc at the time of purchase, but forward facing companies are hard to find nowadays and I respect Ketan's involvement here and it may be rare but I for one want to know what is causing the issue.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Hope to speak with you on Monday Daz, or pm me your telephone number and postcode and I will call you later today or tomorrow.

Ketan at ARC.

[VicParticipant @vic]

A friend of mine has an X2 type mill and he got through 3 circuit boards in under a year. Sadly his was out of warranty at the time and the boards weren't that cheap as I remember. I wonder if these motor control boards are a bad design electronically or whether Chinese components are not very good? It was a common enough problem though that you would think someone would have identified the problem by now. I wonder how many small machines are sitting unloved because of a few small burnt out components?

[daz nosworthyParticipant @daznosworthy]

Hi Ketan,

I don't want to say anymore cos its not helping my situation, and no, none of this is directed at you or ARC, I respect your opnion and right to defend your products, from the start I simply asked if anyone has any ideas on whats happened, it seems on the face of it rare, I have stated what was said..

we cannot know without looking whats happened, and that's the way forward

I will PM my contact info, feel free to call later or send me ya mobile

 

regards, Daz

 

Edited By daz nosworthy on 01/01/2015 13:56:47

[daz nosworthyParticipant @daznosworthy]

Hi Vic, don't know mate…I have no idea if there is a problem or if I have just been unlucky

on balance Ketan and others say this is rare and I don't disbelieve him, they sell em all day …

if this gives a wrong impression to those watching I apologize, cant say for sure till we look into it…but I defend the right to comment on my findings with this mill which has been less than ideal, but TBF I have also stated why I like it : )

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by Vic on 01/01/2015 13:47:48:

A friend of mine has an X2 type mill and he got through 3 circuit boards in under a year. Sadly his was out of warranty at the time and the boards weren't that cheap as I remember. I wonder if these motor control boards are a bad design electronically or whether Chinese components are not very good? It was a common enough problem though that you would think someone would have identified the problem by now. I wonder how many small machines are sitting unloved because of a few small burnt out components?

.

 

First off let me say that this is just a reply from how I see the Chinese machine market, partly a reply to Vic above but has no direct bearing on the problems put forward in this post, any of the users or suppliers.

 

.

 

We are dealing with a hobby market here and as usual in hobbies we have to use what money is left over from the results of living. Paying bills, expenses etc and in many cases this is not much.

So what this does is to generate a market that is very, very cost driven.

 

Most of the western manufacturers have had to bow out of this market for this very reason. A 3 1/2" centre hight lathe costing in excess of £8,000 is not going to sell in bulk, pure fact of life.

 

So the Chinese with their far lower operating costs have been able to get into the act but they have the same problem in keeping the prices low to get the bulk sales needed. So lets examine a small centre lathe like the Mini- lathe as sold by many agents in many countries.

 

It consists of a set of castings that can be produced very cheaply, various turned components like spindles, screws, gears etc that can also be produced very cheaply in bulk and a handful of bearings which at cost are absolute pence. But to make it go we need a motor and because a gearbox adds cost and complexity to the machine it's more cost effective to fit a variable speed board.

 

Now these two components probably cost a third of the total cost of the machine. So if any cost savings are to be made it is in this area.

If you examine a Chinese speed board and compare it to say a British or German board the number of components is a fraction of what is on the British or German board, but so is the cost. A decent DC control board is well above the cost of a VFD because VFD's are now bulk consumer items. So the Chinese board has been built to a price.

 

So the next question you want to ask is why don't they improve these two components, increase the price slightly to get better reliability ? Well the answer to that is very simple and it's over here in the west and it's down to the purchaser and some of the dealers.

 

Contrary to popular opinion these lathes are not all made in one place, because they are very popular there are large factories, small factories and sweat shops all over making these, all to different standards.

So will will take a big responsible factory called XX who decides to do what the customer wants and fits a better motor / control system and sells this at the old price plus £Y to an agent who then sells it for £Y%

 

 

At the same time a less reputable agent or one trying to claw his way up finds out he can still buy the old model at the old price and puts this on the market for just less than £Y% but tells everyone it's the same as the other model.

Usually stating it comes from a better factory. You just need to look on Ebay for the proof of this or Alibaba where they use this avenue to get rid of older model or obsolete stock knowing there is no redress.

 

Believe me, hand on my heart [ if I had one ] this does happen.

So all the effort of trying to improve the product is wasted and everyone still gets tarred by the brush of the lowest common denominator.

 

Long, short is if any costs need to be cut it's always on the motor / speed board as these are the most expensive components and in many cases a bought in component so internal quality control doesn't cover these.

 

So are the Chinese to blame ? No, sorry it's we as the consumer who are to blame.

Edited By John Stevenson on 01/01/2015 14:40:06

[Les Jones 1Participant @lesjones1]

Hi Daz,
I have downloaded the Grizzly and Axminster versions of the SX3 manual to try to understand the problem. The first thing that puzzeled me was your comment about the 10 pin connector to the "speed reader input". I could not understand why a speed sensor (Hall effect, optical sensor or variable reluctance sensor.) would need 10 connections. From both manuals and the pictures an Arc's website the only 10 pin cable I can see is the one between the main board and the touch control panel. Is this the cable you are referring to ? If the mark next to the pin on this connector is related to the fault then if that conductor in this cable shorted to earth it would cause the RCD to trip and probably destroy the keyboard decoding and possibly the microcontroller. A very close up picture of this mark MAY help to decide if the mark is just a mark from manufacturing or caused by a short to ground.
2 When you say there was no power at Terminal N1 what was the refference point ? (What was the other meter lead connected to ?)

3 Had either of the fuses in the mill blown ? (One on the main PCB and one in line fuse according to the manual.)

Les.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Vic on 01/01/2015 13:47:48:

A friend of mine has an X2 type mill and he got through 3 circuit boards in under a year. Sadly his was out of warranty at the time and the boards weren't that cheap as I remember. I wonder if these motor control boards are a bad design electronically or whether Chinese components are not very good? It was a common enough problem though that you would think someone would have identified the problem by now. I wonder how many small machines are sitting unloved because of a few small burnt out components?

Hi Vic,

This is not meant to be a dig at your friend:

1. X2 type mill: brushed geared head or brushless belt drive SX2/P? – two totally different animals. Tarring everything with the same brush is wrong!

2. You have quite rightly questioned the electrical components competence of the X2 type machine – whatever it is, but is it possible to respectfully question the competence of the specific user too?…Yes certain control boards from different manufacturers of X2 type brushed motor clones are questionable, but there are definitely questionable users too, who either fail to understand the limitations or overload an X2/X2 type brushed motor machine.

3. Again, for the Super X2 – SX2 in short, I have seen very little machine related electrical failure, for any brushless motor belt drive SX2 and SX3 machine sold by ARC. You only have my word on this, which is up to you to decide if I am right or wrong.

So, I kindly request you to reconsider before tarring everything with one negative statement. There are enough forums out there dedicated to the good, bad and ugly for specific machines, with enough solutions. Consider also that the forums are there because these are the 'cheap' Myfords of this generation with thousands sold worldwide due to low price.

Ketan at ARC

[daz nosworthyParticipant @daznosworthy]

Hi Les, yes, that’s the cable, goes to the touch panel, and mounted on btm lh side, it’s the blk one that’s got marks on the board, I will take a pic when I take the board out, main fuse and board fuse OK, I just simply put the meter on the main earth on the bus bar at the top and to each of the 6 terminals in the main infeed to the board, L1 has a live feed only, but I don’t know what is supposed to be live tbh I just wanted to see if there was any power going into the board.
Tbh the whole point of the post was to check if I have missed something obvious..as I said if your interested I can send a board for you to look at
I just wanna sus out why its not working, as the mill is heavy its not easy to move to test, so me thinks motor out and test is a good base..

[Les Jones 1Participant @lesjones1]

Hi Daz,
I would not expect to see any or much of a reading between earth and neutral. They are normaly connected together where the mains cable entering the house is terminated. The only reading you would get is the voltage drop on the neutral wire between that point and the point you are measuring. I'm not sure I could do much testing on the board by itself. I could probably trace the schematic but as it is probably microproccesor controled it would be very difficult to work out exactly how it works. One thing you could look for is damage to the 10 core cable that might short one of the wires to earth. Also the fact that the emergency stop button was locked in is not relevant as it does not disconnect the power from the control board. Another question. Is the item on the main board underneath the board mounted on pillars a transformer ? If it is then the control electronics may not all be at mains potential.

Les.

Edited By Les Jones 1 on 01/01/2015 16:45:44

Edited By Les Jones 1 on 01/01/2015 17:03:30

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I have one of the first half-dozen X2s (the old brushed ones, not super X-2) Arc brought into the UK. I was also probably one of the first people to blow one up within a week or two – one of the screws holding the controller box to the column came loose and shorted the board out. Not a design fault, just bad luck. Ketan swapped the board for a new one by return of post, which greatly impressed me at the time – I was only starting to learn that (despite the smaller margins!) most of the reputable ME suppliers (i.e. not the web-cowboys) do put the customer first.

I can also testify that the current brushless. solid column X2 machines are a completely different animal. I have had to do a fair few mods to bring my X2 to the state where I can really get the best out of it, but the new machines have most, if not all, of these nailed straight out of the box. I do prefer the old-style table though, even if it has less travel

The replacement board is now 12 years old, and (touch wood) still running strong, but if it does go pop, a 3-phase flange mount motor and VFD will go straight on to replace it!

Neil

[MalcBParticipant @malcb52554]

 

 

.

 

Daz, Lez, Ketan, thanks for the info guys,

I note your comments and watch this post with interest.

I am not actually without machine shop knowledge having served my time in the tool room, then been a planning/production/ programming engineer and works manager for over 35 years. Conventional, but mainly CNC in all machine shop disciplines, many multi axis with live tooling plus Laser Cutting and white metal lining. Taking semi-retirement a couple of years ago with retention on consultancy and CAD work basis. I was able to just go into work and use machines as I chose if no setup present. Consequently I have had to start up again setting up another home workshop after a break of 15 yrs since having my last one.

I do find that after doing quite a bit of research that the hobby machine/ equipment market ( rightly or wrongly ) is trying hard to replicate/shadow industry in its advancements. The situation with industry is now such that as I was buying new CNC machines, a critical part of the purchase price was always negotiating a much extended warranty and service agreements. Most cases being 5 yrs. The complexity of the equipment and obscenely high spares and labour costs made it a must. In fact a few machines had dedicated phone lines to them for 24hr round the clock monitoring and diagnostics with corrections.

My current bias towards a more simplistic approach to equipment, i.e simple belt driven for a Miller and without or limited use of PCB,s is based on many yrs experience in dealing with equipment that does have these and knowing all their traits. It's not going to be on one or two forum articles.

My research also indicates problems with gear driven hobby machines where gears have failed and some with excessive running noises. The fact that belt drive conversion kits are becoming available for some of these backs this up.

Along with its simplicity and versatility is probably why the Bridgeports have been such a popular choice for a milling machine ( and still is for many ).

As the hobby market equipment gets more complicated then if they want to sell these machines then it's up to suppliers to start pumping out better warranty and service packages

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited By Malc Broadbent on 01/01/2015 17:30:47

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by Malc Broadbent on 01/01/2015 17:28:42:

As the hobby market equipment gets more complicated then if they want to sell these machines then it's up to suppliers to start pumping out better warranty and service packages

.

With all respect Malc it is already done.

Denfords sell a similar machine to what is available in the hobby market for about £15,000, service and maintenance is a further £1200 to £1800 per year dependant on model but this does not cover spares.

It's also very relevant that they will also not sell to hobbiests and will only deal with education.

Does this answer your question ?

[Les Jones 1Participant @lesjones1]

Hi Daz,
I have just received a PM from another forum member with some information on the design of the controller board. The low level circuitry is not a mains potential as I suspected. It is fed from a switch mode power supply on the main board. This means it is unlikely that the fault that tripped the RCD has damaged the low level circuitry. Could you check that you have 5 volts between the Gnd and +5V terminals on the terminal strip on the bottom of the main controller board.

Les.

[VicParticipant @vic]

Posted by Ketan Swali on 01/01/2015 16:14:16:

So, I kindly request you to reconsider before tarring everything with one negative statement. There are enough forums out there dedicated to the good, bad and ugly for specific machines, with enough solutions. Consider also that the forums are there because these are the 'cheap' Myfords of this generation with thousands sold worldwide due to low price.

Ketan at ARC

I was making a statement and asking a question not slagging anyone off. Hundreds, maybe thousands of X2 mills have needed replacement circuit boards, so much so that a guy in the states had a small business repairing them at one point. Do a search with "X2 circuit board" and you'll find plenty of posts. If the new models don't suffer this problem then that's good, although It would probably have been a good idea to give them a completely new name.

Thanks for answering the question John. I wouldnt have expected the motor and board to have accounted for so much of the price of a machine.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Vic on 01/01/2015 19:30:48:

Posted by Ketan Swali on 01/01/2015 16:14:16:

So, I kindly request you to reconsider before tarring everything with one negative statement. There are enough forums out there dedicated to the good, bad and ugly for specific machines, with enough solutions. Consider also that the forums are there because these are the 'cheap' Myfords of this generation with thousands sold worldwide due to low price.

Ketan at ARC

I was making a statement and asking a question not slagging anyone off. Hundreds, maybe thousands of X2 mills have needed replacement circuit boards, so much so that a guy in the states had a small business repairing them at one point. Do a search with "X2 circuit board" and you'll find plenty of posts. If the new models don't suffer this problem then that's good, although It would probably have been a good idea to give them a completely new name.

Thanks for answering the question John. I wouldnt have expected the motor and board to have accounted for so much of the price of a machine.

Thank you Vic. I am fully aware of the X2 story, and I am also aware of the X2 limitations unlike the 50% of the people who replaced the boards due to their lack of knowledge on limitations use/abuse ..I and my team speak to both type of replacement spares customers all the time. Thats how I make my statements with some authority. The fault is not always the board. Add the price of the machine and the ability of the customer into the equation too, which is the point I am making. I also agree that SIEG are not the best at naming their machines, just as much as I am aware of my competitors who use the name SUPER to tag their brushed machines to make customers believe that it is same/better than the SIEG brushless SUPER machines to gain sales, and/or confuse the issue!

I cannot do much about such factors, and the way people think. Both of these factors are outside my control. Everyone has their own opinion and experience on the bases of which they make their statements on here. Right or wrong is up to the reader to decide.

The guy in the States who had a small business of repairing these boards for the X2 – brushed motor version – if you mean Uncle Rabbit, Native American Indian, then I knew him well. He was a good friend who died a few years ago.

Ketan at ARC

[Don 1Participant @don1]

Hi all, I have an X3 mill which was new in a packing case and kept in store for three years because of short of space, I have new opened it and put it on a bench but it would not start. I went to Arc and saw Ian, He would not test the board and would not sell me a board because he says I did not buy the mill from Arc. So if anyone out there is looking to buy a mill don't buy from Arc as you might have problems if you need spares.

Thank Ian for your ignorance

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Don Gibbs on 13/01/2016 12:58:17:

Hi all, I have an X3 mill which was new in a packing case and kept in store for three years because of short of space, I have new opened it and put it on a bench but it would not start. I went to Arc and saw Ian, He would not test the board and would not sell me a board because he says I did not buy the mill from Arc. So if anyone out there is looking to buy a mill don't buy from Arc as you might have problems if you need spares.

Thank Ian for your ignorance

Hello Don,

I am sorry to read about your experience with ARC. In response, I would like to make the following comments:

If you read the original post from Daz in this thread, followed by the various responses, you will note that ARC assisted him, even though his machine was from some other supplier.

You asked Ian for the board, but you had not tested the motor. It was strange that the machine was in storage for a long time (even though not purchased from ARC). Ian asked you where it was from and you replied that that it doesn’t matter – it is from a second hand dealer. So, we have no clarity to make a judgement.

– Ian said that if the motor is faulty, it will blow the new board, so, the motor needs to be tested with the board.

– As a matter of policy, we do not get involved with testing motors and boards for machines which have not been purchased from us, unless we have some clear idea of its history, or the persons history.

– When Ian showed you the new board, you said that his board looks different. You purchased a speed pot and went off.

– As we refused to supply the board over the counter, you tried to purchase it through our website, and we declined the order, because, as we had stated, if the motor was faulty, it could take out the control board. Also, even if ARC could have considered your purchase, there was another issue, which we cannot discuss here, out of respect for you and for security reasons.

– Under the circumstances, it would be incorrect for us to get involved in an unknown situation. Electrical components are checked before dispatch, and we refuse to consider claims for replacement, especially when boards blow due to human error at time of fitting.

If you provide clearer information to Ian about the history, along with answers to all questions which he asks you, Ian 'might' be prepared to quote you for testing. By the way, you suggested that we insert your USB stick into our computer to look at the pictures of your faulty machine/board, but for security reasons we are unable to consider this.

If you still feel unhappy, that is up to you.

Ketan at ARC.

[daz nosworthyParticipant @daznosworthy]

Hi, I got a notice of this post, and wanted to reply, I dealt with Ketan a year ago now, even though I was upfront about the mills purchase not being from ARC I got a first class service from Ketan and Ian and would not hesitate to use them again

I purchased updated boards, and took the board at risk of the same motor problem, but the replacement hardware has been faultless, and night and day better in terms of performance

I am not being paid to say anything, I say things as I find them, my matters were discussed at length with Ketan and I found the response more than reasonable

1 year later the mill is going strong and I use it all the time, great stuff

thanks Ketan

[nigel jones 5Participant @nigeljones5]

I wanted to buy a replacement motor from ARC only last week for an X2…only to be told that there was no warranty what so ever, under no circumstances no returns what so ever regardless of whether the motor was even fitted or not, needless to say I went else where and recieved brilliant customer service…its only the truth. Can you think of any other retaier who refuses any notion of return or warranty?

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

Posted by fizzy on 14/01/2016 00:08:06:

.only to be told that there was no warranty what so ever,

I think it will be down to the fact that if either the motor or it's controller on this type of machine is faulty there is a chance it will ruin the other one.

As such ARC has no control over the destiny of one such part if there is a chance it will be paired with a faulty item or not. – I hazard a guess that ARC has been bitten more than once with this and thus had to adapt this policy to avoid good parts leaving them and being returned ruined and obliged to then also issue a refund and chuck a recently good item into the bin.

I have found Ketan to be a very easy going obliging guy. But a fool and a charity he is not.!

I will also have a guess that this policy has been forced to have been brought in by a few 'pi$$ takers' that have ruined it for the many.

Nick

[Simon CollierParticipant @simoncollier74340]

Getting back to the actual machine, I have a Super X3 which is now 9 years old. It is an accurate, capable machine which I really like. However the board for the speed controls failed and I had the service guy out to replace it (from Hare and Forbes, Sydney). Also, the touch panel plastic had broken up and was replaced. A couple of the plastic handles have broken off the feed arms, and the tapping function, operated by the buttons on the end of the feed handles, now doesn't work. It would require a new main board to fix, and being labour intensive, was going to cost about $1000 (half the cost of the machine). Just now, the LCD z axis display for the spindle fine feed has failed. On my lathe, the digital readout display failed and no boards are available for that model now, so I had no option but to pay $600 for a new one (after I had sulked for about a year). I don't know whether my experience is reasonable or not, given the price of the machines, but it is intensely annoying.

[Author]

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