Secrecy…within the workshop?

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

So, i just watched this BBC clip online, where some sociologist made the claim that secrecy, within ANY organisation structure or workplace, is what keeps it going, he made it pretty clear that he meant any kind, regardless of what it did there would always be a few people at the top who don't want the grunts to know whats going on. (He even used a cafe during his example)

Yet as someone who's only working life has ever been related to engineering, I find that very hard to believe, as through all the people i met whilst i worked many of them were only too happy to have someone to share their knowledge with, it definitely wasn't witheld in any sense. I was definitely struck by the kindness of which these so called "secrets" were given to me.

I myself, would say even from a logical standing point, you can't expect someone to work in a practical environment without giving them instruction in how you would like the work to be done. And the sharing of information and it's subsequent discussion with the recipient is actually what moves knowledge and technology along.

And certainly outside the workplace i've had the same experience on this forum of knowledge and wisdom being given regardless of who it was intended for, the altruistic way that people want their knowledge to be heard regardless of whether or not they were worthy of it.

Can anyone else relate to that? Is it just "techy" people who are more trusting of others?

Michael W

Edited By Michael Walters on 20/06/2016 21:24:29

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

I have worked in engineering all my working life and have found most people very willing to share knowledge, but I have also met the 80-20 men who keep a bit back and even one guy we called the human diode who always wanted info but never gave any.

Mike

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

I didn't see the program but suspect the secrecy refers to aspects of business rather than actual work. My own business we all shared knowledge.. and i trained my staff to hopefully go on and become better than myself at the work: learning, thinking around the problems and having the tenacity to go that bit further and to research new techniques. However i certainly kept aspects of the finances, competition and plans for the future away from employees who may well move on to working for rivals.

[the artfull-codgerParticipant @theartfull-codger]

I worked in the glass trade for a large proportion of my working life & the silverers were very secretive about the mixes for coloured silvering, the embossers who did all the decorative work on glass with acids/sand blasting,brilliant cutting etc were very secretive about formulas as were the stained glass artists, the leaded light dept wern't bothered, I was only too pleased to show young lads if they were interested which is why I loved the latter yrs as technician in d & t dept at my local high school helping students,after all they're the next generation of craftsmen.

Graham.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

The secrecy outlined by Graham above has been vital for many trades to keep their job, and wage rates. Once the procedures and formulae were written down, as required for Iso9000 accreditation, the management becomes free to sack the skilled workers and get in cheaper labour. I remember in the '80's everyone being shown a special video at work intended to show the importance of writing down the procedures ostensibly for safety reasons in a drive to document all our procedures. That company shrank, is now owned by an Italian company, and the original factory site is houses.

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Well, I used to be paid to write and promote open-source 3D Virtual Reality rendering software. Great gig if you can get it.

I used to help companies when questions came up in email or in person, as to how/why I did certain things in my computer code. Of course, of those that incorporated my ideas, NOBODY gave attribution, but published it as their own work, including bugs in my code and all. (yes, I'd check, and did have my own little bit of fun with this issue!)

One of these companies that I directly helped by email and in person morphed into one that I read about on here once in a while. (it is a highly regarded company)

I don't really mind (remember, I got paid, anyway, by my organization) but a public "thank you" might have gone a long way to letting my organization continue this work. Of the millions of downloads of this software, I got incredibly few "thanks" – it was, literally a one-way stream, like Michael Poole's "Human Diode".

Oh well, it was incredibly fun at the time, no matter what…

[Bill PudneyParticipant @billpudney37759]

When I worked in a technical environment (drawing office etc) I found it to be very open. When I "progressed" to a job with more management content it became clear that politics was an essential subject. Knowledge became power. A classic example of playing the person, rather than the ball. It's partly why I retired early.

cheers

Bill

[john carruthersParticipant @johncarruthers46255]

>>of my working life & the silverers were very secretive about the mixes for coloured silvering<<

Seemed to be widespread in the glass trade. Mr Stanners who set up Folkestone glass paid a lot of money for the secret for silvering.
Even had one cutter who knew how to cut holes in wired, but shut everyone out while he did it. (simple enough once you now )

How apprentices were supposed to learn I don't know…. ??

[Martin Botting 2Participant @martinbotting2]

Unlike most posters here I guess I am in a dead or dying trade, it is a trade as I had to serve a 6 year apprenticeship with oral examination to gain the licence to work, I found out this week that the powers to be have made changes that will render my licence useless, a dumbing down if you like. through out my career I have worked with apprentices and given them the benefit of my limited knowledge which it seems is bigger than I thought.

apprentices (so called) now only have to get 2 years under their belt to pass exams and where as before you had to get the signatures of 6 qualified (freemen) before you were examined as proof of having done the job to the standard required, it was a matter of pride for me as a freeman to say I would sign a boys papers, those that did not come up to scratch would not get the scribble.

The passing of knowledge is important for safety reasons and while every trade had its high-jinks I firmly that tradesmen are very aware of the importance of training as it keeps standards high, my personal beliefs that many employers much prefer a dumbing down and the death of trades as this makes for bigger profit. In our hobby there are small factories in every poster and readers back yard we are in isolation a lot of the time and producing things we would like not to fill a market or make a profit and we share our thoughts on how to, best practice etc. LONG MAY IT LAST, its just a shame that the world wants it yesterday and 10times cheeper.

As my closing thoughts, don't let your secrets die with you if there is a pair of ears /eyes/ hands and mind wanting to improve then help them and share.

[MikeParticipant @mike89748]

Some "trade secrets" add to the mystique of a product, don't they? For instance, what's the secret ingredient in Coke? I once came across this attitude in, of all things, fish hooks, but it backfired on the maker. One of the world's leading manufacturers flew me to the factory in Norway to write an article for an angling magazine. I was entertained wonderfully well, and allowed to see people packing hooks of many types for world-wide distribution, but I wasn't allowed in the factory because the manufacturing process was "secret". Daft, really, because anyone with a bit of engineering knowledge could deduce how the hooks were made. Result, no article of any consequence because there was nothing to write about. But it was a nice free holiday…

[WearyParticipant @weary]

And…. The OP didn't give us a link to the transmission nor share 'the secret' of the title of the programme, nor give us any other information that would allow us to find it easily………….. keeping this information to himself!

I suspect that 'some sociologist' (Actually Christopher Gray, a University Professor) who took part in the programme would be nodding and smiling!

Here is the transmission for those interested.

Regards,

Phil.

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

Posted by Michael Poole on 20/06/2016 21:45:06:

I have worked in engineering all my working life and have found most people very willing to share knowledge, but I have also met the 80-20 men who keep a bit back and even one guy we called the human diode who always wanted info but never gave any.

Mike

Very similar scenario to myself Mike; Met one who I worked alongside abroad, will never forget his name, neither will a few other guys, we nicknamed him ' the poisoned dwarf'…apart from not imparting 'secrets' to colleagues he was known to take credit for other peoples problem solving abilities / repair solutions, or go running to the manager after overhearing ideas when a problem was encountered. Finally heard on the grapevine much later that he'd got his just rewards… . Proves the adage… 'careful what you say & do as it will always come back & bite you on the arse'

George.

[davebParticipant @daveb17630]

ISO9000 meant that trade secrets became public knowledge, the value of experience became zero. A qualified person today has taken an examination to demonstrate knowledge of the relevant Standard, no experience necessary.

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Well there are many secrets which are valuable to my occupation – and, in time, you will all need to learn them!

I am a fully qualified and experienced OAP – I recommend it!

Norman

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

When I served my time as an apprentice fitter and turner/toolmaker, it seemed to be the norm that the "old blokes" (over 40!) taught all they could to any of the young lads who wanted to learn. A tremendous wealth of knowledge was passed down generation to generation.

Later in life I graduated from university and went to work in the media and found it was every man for himself and don't expect any of the old hands to help you out with tips or techniques. You were viewed as a potential competitor and so deliberately stonewalled wherever possible, with a few notable exceptions, usually from editors who had a vested interest in their staff doing well and making them look good.

I certainly enjoyed working in the former environment rather than the latter. I think you find a better class of people on the shop floor than in the office world.

Edited By Hopper on 21/06/2016 13:03:13

[Yngvar FParticipant @yngvarf]

Posted by Mike on 21/06/2016 08:54

One of the world's leading manufacturers flew me to the factory in Norway…..

And now the factory is closed and moved to China.

Guess the secrets are still safe.

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Posted by daveb on 21/06/2016 12:16:32:

ISO9000 meant that trade secrets became public knowledge, the value of experience became zero. A qualified person today has taken an examination to demonstrate knowledge of the relevant Standard, no experience necessary.

Not convinced that aligns with my own experience. I look for "somewhat more" from my candidates.

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

I to met that brick wall head on, the man who overhauled the Ariel cameras was asked to give me tuition and he would not, later I had to follow through using the manuals and had to re-do his work as he ignored certain details that were vital to its operation. He said later that he feared for his job. as he was a lot older than i.

I have always tried to pass on detail and methods by example and showing techniques. I found that the ability to retain such knowledge was very low and apprentices invariably upped sticks and left as soon as they qualified so we no longer had apprentices.

Clive

[Martin CottrellParticipant @martincottrell21329]

I find secrecy in the workshop as with secrecy in the shops is conducive to a happy marriage. SWMBO has absolutely no idea what goes on in my workshop nor the value of the strange parcels that our overworked postman frequently hauls down the garden path to the front door! Likewise she makes frequent trips "shopping" and returns with bags that are hurriedly stuffed in various cupboards. Occasionally I will notice a new dress or bag and she might notice a new tool, in either case the question "new tool/dress dear?" will lead to the stock reply "no,I bought it ages ago, haven't you noticed it before?!". We'll then exchange knowing grins, happy that our guilty pleasures are safe to continue!

Where secrecy in the workshop is concerned, I'm very much in favour!

Regards Martin.

[MikeParticipant @mike89748]

Hi Martin,

My experience exactly!

[NJHParticipant @njh]

" SWMBO has absolutely no idea what goes on in my workshop nor the value of the strange parcels that our overworked postman frequently hauls down the garden path to the front door! "

Exactly and, whats more, if I comment on something I see in the mag or on line she will say " why don't you get it!"

Very cunning of course because I then feel duty bound to indulge her evry whim and fancy!

Norman

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

I'm amazed at your naivety chaps. I don't have a workshop and strongly recommend that you don't have one either…

Cheers,

Dave

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Secrecy ?? what's that ??

Couple of months ago very excited girlfriend steams in with a parcel saying look what I've just 'won' on Ebay and proceed to unwrap a pristine set of carbide grade 1 metric slip gauges to add to the imperial set she already owns.

Then spends an evening cleaning and calibrating all the metric micrometers she can find.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

The knack is to make sure the distaff side of the family have an account with Very. It's quite easy to lose extra parcels in the tide of parcels going back and forth.

Unfortunately this can prove to be an expensive strategy.

Neil

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