Seconds Pendulum Hipp Clock

[David Thompson 1Participant @davidthompson1]

Dear Folks

I am intending to design and make a seconds pendulum Hipp clock. I have the usual books, "Electric Clocks and How to Make Them", "Electric Clocks and Chimes", Hope-Jones titles, and John Wilding's "3/4 Second Pendulum Clock". The problem is that I can't find any specific advice for designing the electromagnet. I have some 12mm soft iron rod for the cores, which could be reduced of course, and some suitable soft iron flat for the magnet yolk The things that I need to know are what size should the cores be, what qauge of copper wire should I use, how many turns should I make and what voltage should be used? The theory and maths concerning magnets of this type is a bit beyond my ability. I envisage the pendulum having a heavy regulator type of bob. If I make the magnet to J. Wildings design for the 3/4 Seconds Clock would it be too weak? Any advice on design or sources of information will be gratefully received.

David Thompson

[David Thompson 1Participant @davidthompson1]

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

I'll ask my mate Chris for you, he's made one. It's not going to be too critical, you don't need much of a kick so anything that looks about right size wise and tweek the system with a series resistor to reduce the current to acceptable operation. Basically select on test. If you want your Coil to look nice then you should get hold of some transformer winding tape to wrap each layer as you go otherwise the wire tends to infiltrate the previous winding and it all starts to look lumpy. When I did my synchronome coils I finished off with green sticky backed beize. Depends what look you are going for. You could pot the whole lot with epoxy or shellac and leave the wire showing or even tar paper or pitch if you want it to look antique.

Regarding your comparison with the 3/4 secs clock and your comments about heavy pendulum. The impulse has only to compensate from the energy losses in the clock itself and so the mass of the bob is immaterial to a very great extent. The impulse is also intermittant so if it triggers say every 20 seconds it will do so after 20 beats of the seconds pendulum or 26.6 beats of the 3/4 which will be actually 28 in practice assuming it toggles on even beats.

So providing the clock itself is not too dissimilar going with Wildings design will not be far off. As I said select on test for current. Hope that helps.

regards Martin

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Hi'

I made what I describe as an inverse Hipp clock, because it pulses the pendulum every swing unless the amplitude is excessive, in whch case it misses the pulse out. Swing of the pendulum is measured using photo switches. It worked first time, which is not usually the case for conventional Hipp toggles, and has been running for more than 3 years non stop. It doesn't keep brilliant time as it has a steel pendulum, so I've set it to run a tad slow, it's easier to advance the save a few minutes a week than have to switch it off then back on. It's all controlled by a micro-processor, and the time is displayed on a Gents alternating polarity slave, although I made my own slave for another clock. One of these days I'll make a fused quartz pendulum, re-do the electronics on an Arduino and write it up properly.

All this is preamble to my source of electromagnet coils, which was a couple of old relays. I actually used 24v AC coils as I had some, but they are running on only a few volts DC. If you want some photos send me a pm.

[Alan Wood 4Participant @alanwood4]

Hi David

I built Bill Smith's Gearless gravity arm clock which had a hip toggle sustaining mechanism. I tried to bypass his ideas by using readily available solenoids from the internet but in the end reverted to home made.

The design had two coils.

I used B&Q 'black' steel rod for the cores.

For the former end plates (1.25" diameter) I used discs of double sided printed circuit board Araldited to the core ends and with the copper hack removed to leave appropriate lands for the wire terminations. I used 0.55mm copper self fluxing wire for the windings and covered the core before I started with a layer of copier paper.

I built up layer upon layer in an even manner while rotating the former slowly in the lathe. Every second or third layer I put a single layer of copier paper. This gave a flat surface to start the next winding onto if I had messed up the previous layer. I finished off with a layer of self amalgamating tape which doesn't look pretty but made sure the wire was held firmly.

I had one clang while winding where the wire snagged and broke. I drilled a couple of holes in the end cheek as close to the winding depth so far and took the broken end out through the end cheek. I feed the broken end of the feed reel out and jointed it and then continued. This kept the joint outside of the winding mass so there was no exposed joint to cause shorts. That might sound a bit confusing and hopefully you won't have cause to do the same.

When complete the two coils had significant magnetic pull with little residual hysteresis. The current consumed at 12V was around 100mA and with the short period of activation (100ms) this was quite good to run from a battery for around 12 months.

Image below shows the development lash up. Ignore the curly wurly coils, they are just for effect. The cardboard shroud is to stop stray light affecting my Microset timing device light sensor.

Recommend Bill's book not just for this section and the concept of the design but also for his wealth of information on workshop techniques and tools. This is enhanced with his videos. Sadly Bill is no longer with us.

Kind regards

Alan

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Looks like a fascinating clock, so I Googled for the book, $45 available only from the author, who has passed away. Is it available in UK?

[Peter BellParticipant @peterbell11509]

Yes looks really interesting, never seen that before.

Am I right in thinking its using the Hipp Toggle to drop a gravity arm as used in Synchronome and other master clocks?

Thanks Peter

[Alan Wood 4Participant @alanwood4]

Bill's wife still offers all his documentation but I think Ian Cobb also offers them in the UK.

The whole clock is interesting in the techniques used and includes a pin wheel and Dodd Daisy mechanical divider.

You are right that the Hipp Toggle causes the arm to drop which in turn causes the ball race to run down the slope and push the pendulum away. Subsequently the contacts close and the arm is reset. It is tricky to set up until you grasp what is going on and the interactions that occur. I have pushed resets out to around 90 seconds through tweaking.

Alan

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

In my ignorance of Hipp Triggers, I ask: is there any similarity to the ratchet oilers used on traction engines, etc?

One day I will save up and buy a proper book on clocks and their escapements …

Cheers, Tim

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

The Hipp 'toggle' [sometimes known as a butterfly, from early implementations] is a delightfully ingeneous self-regulating device, Tim … Well-worth looking at.

MichaelG.

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

I have a Hipp clock.

It is relegated to the workshop as the 'clonk' when the trip and magnet kicks in is not good for household duty, especially an upstairs landing or bedroom.

Frank Hope-Jones was a great publicist. I am not sure this type of clock has any application these days and rather ought to be confined to the dustbin of history.

I certainly would not waste time building another.

Cheers,

Julian

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Julian,

With respect: I doubt if it's the Hipp mechanism, as such, that is noisy … That element of the clock should be almost silent.

MichaelG.

.

P.S. … This page is worth a look **LINK**

http://www.rogerj.co.uk/clock.htm

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Tim Stevens on 02/10/2016 17:10:34:

In my ignorance of Hipp Triggers, I ask: is there any similarity to the ratchet oilers used on traction engines, etc?

One day I will save up and buy a proper book on clocks and their escapements …

Cheers, Tim

It's a clever little device that only engages when the pendulum doesn't swing far enough to move the pawl right across the ratchet. When it catches, it switches on a solenoid that tugs the pendulum so it swings further and so on…

Neil

[David Thompson 1Participant @davidthompson1]

Dear Model Engineers

Many thanks to all who have responded. I have almost decided to make magnets similar to those described for J.Wilding's 3/4 second Clock.

Julian, my Dad made a Synchronome when I was a kid in the early 1950's. He built it from scratch (to utilise a slave movement that a friend had liberated from a German factory at the end of the war), no lathe, just a Woolworhs drill from the 1930's and a vice that he attached to the dining table, and hand tools. The "clunk" was dreadful, I remember people who visited used to jump every 30 seconds, but of course we lived with it and and had ceased to hear it!

You say, "I am not sure this type of clock has any application these days and rather ought to be confined to the dustbin of history." A bit like steam engines!

Once again many thanks to all of you.

David

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by David Thompson 1 on 03/10/2016 10:01:21:

(a) Julian, my Dad made a Synchronome when I was a kid in the early 1950's. He built it from scratch (to utilise a slave movement that a friend had liberated from a German factory at the end of the war), no lathe, just a Woolworhs drill from the 1930's and a vice that he attached to the dining table, and hand tools. The "clunk" was dreadful, I remember people who visited used to jump every 30 seconds, but of course we lived with it and and had ceased to hear it!

(b) You say, "I am not sure this type of clock has any application these days and rather ought to be confined to the dustbin of history." A bit like steam engines!

.

David,

(a) For info. … As I hinted to Julian last night, the Synchronome doesn't use a Hipp regulated pendulum, and nor does the usual type of Gents Pul-Syn-etic master clock [the 'Waiting Train' turret clock is a different beast] … The disturbing noise made by these clocks comes from the electromagnetic re-setting of the gravity arm.

The Smith clock mentioned earlier is an unusual arrangement, of a Hipp pendulum mechanically re-setting a gravity arm.

(b) … I think it's about time Julian started building Turbines …

.

MichaelG.

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

Hi Michael,

I didnt say I have a synchronome clock ala Hope-Jones, but have a Hipps clock.

We wont argue over miniature steam locos I hope!

I think it is about time the Claude B Reeve regulator clock was re-serialised in ME. This to my mind would be a much better project than a Hipps clock, and far more valuable when finished and far more interesting.

Also no 'clonk'!

Just a thought!

Cheers,

Julian

 

Edited By julian atkins on 03/10/2016 22:26:03

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by julian atkins on 03/10/2016 22:25:06:

Hi Michael,

I didnt say I have a synchronome clock ala Hope-Jones, but have a Hipps clock.

We wont argue over miniature steam locos I hope!

.

Julian,

In reverse order:

I trust you noticed the accompanying my comment about Turbines.

I would like to know [please] what Hipp clock you have that is noisy … The Hipp mechanism is a gentle sort of thing, so I'm genuinely confused by your remark about the intrusive noise.

MichaelG.

.

P.S. … Here is Hipp's Patent of 1869

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?CC=US&NR=90841A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=&date=18690601&DB=&locale=

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 03/10/2016 22:41:20

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 03/10/2016 12:36:49:

.

… The disturbing noise made by these clocks comes from the electromagnetic re-setting of the gravity arm.

.

For clarity, I should perhaps have written electromechanical ^^^

… obviously it's the mechanical impact that generates the audible noise.

MichaelG.

.

Edit: Found a brief video showing the resetting action of a Synchronome:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U961TNPP3AE

and, for comparison; the Gent's Pulsynetic:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OhAOsCUvkfo

Spot the conceptual similarity, but note the design changes which allowed Gent to avoid infringing the Synchronome Patents.

 

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 03/10/2016 23:13:43

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

Hi Michael,

Forgive me for ignoring the turbine comment.

I will take some pics tomorrow of my Hipps clock and post.

The magnets are run off an old fashioned type 12V door bell type battery.

The case is made out of bits of an old piano I was given including the marquetry panels.

Despite 2 bricks in the base, and quite a thick wooden backplate to the clock, and despite my best endeavours, that 'clonk' still remains when the trip kicks in.

If you can help out with a solution, I would be very grateful!

Cheers,

Julian

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

I look forward to seeing the photos, Julian

MichaelG.

[Tony JeffreeParticipant @tonyjeffree56510]

Posted by David Thompson 1 on 03/10/2016 10:01:21:

Dear Model Engineers

Many thanks to all who have responded. I have almost decided to make magnets similar to those described for J.Wilding's 3/4 second Clock.

Julian, my Dad made a Synchronome when I was a kid in the early 1950's. He built it from scratch (to utilise a slave movement that a friend had liberated from a German factory at the end of the war), no lathe, just a Woolworhs drill from the 1930's and a vice that he attached to the dining table, and hand tools. The "clunk" was dreadful, I remember people who visited used to jump every 30 seconds, but of course we lived with it and and had ceased to hear it!

You say, "I am not sure this type of clock has any application these days and rather ought to be confined to the dustbin of history." A bit like steam engines!

Once again many thanks to all of you.

David

David –

Probably a bit late in this thread, but…I built the Wilding 3/4 second pendulum clock – the electromagnets should be well up to driving a seconds pendulum. I bought soft iron bar of appropriate dimensions at the time but it is so long ago that I wouldn't be able to identify the supplier.

In making the Wilding design I introduced some improvements to the way the count wheel and associated ratchet/gathering pawl operate, which might be of interest if you are designing from scratch – documented in ME but also on my website here:

http://www.jeffree.co.uk/pages/3-4-sec-clock-improvements.html

Good luck with the build!

Regards,

Tony

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by duncan webster on 30/09/2016 12:10:13:

One of these days I'll make a fused quartz pendulum, re-do the electronics on an Arduino and write it up properly.

A very expensive pendulum sending time signals to a board running a cheap as chips quartz crystal clock that's a couple of orders of magnitude more accurate…

A typical ME project

Neil

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 03/10/2016 23:15:56:

I look forward to seeing the photos, Julian

MichaelG.

.

I would still be interested to see your photos, Julian

MichaelG.

[Maurice Cox 1Participant @mauricecox1]

I have an ex G.P.O. Hipp clock that was used for timing purposes in a telephone exchange. The noise from the pendulum part is very low level; what is noisy is the clonk from the slave dial every half minute. Not to bad in the day, but can be a bit intrusive at night.

Maurice

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by julian atkins on 03/10/2016 23:10:45:

[…]

Despite 2 bricks in the base, and quite a thick wooden backplate to the clock, and despite my best endeavours, that 'clonk' still remains when the trip kicks in.

If you can help out with a solution, I would be very grateful!

.

Maurice,

Thanks for your comment:

Your experience confirms mine … but Julian's statement ^^^ seemed to indicate otherwise; which is why I wanted to discuss his actual clock.

MichaelG.

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