Scroll saw advice

[merlinParticipant @merlin98989]

Advice please.

Having a rather unfriendly, even irritating relationship with my (hand) piercing saw I am thinking of buying a second-hand Sealey SM 1302 scroll saw.

It has variable speed, is cheap and looks solid enough for small brass clock wheels and bits. I don't envisage ever cutting wood.

Does the Sealey SM 1302 take both pinned and unpinned 5" blades? Are pinned ones far better than unpinned ones? I had never heard of pinned ones until I watched a YouTube video recently.

I have a stock of skinny unpinned blades for my piercing saw and I would like, if possible, to use them in a machine. Is this possible?

Many thanks.

[merlinParticipant @merlin98989]

[NJHParticipant @njh]

I bought a (variable speed) scroll saw with the idea that it would be good for crossing out clock wheels. I really didn't get on with it at all – far too rough and violent. I resorted to the piercing saw which when used steadily and with patience was fine. I would be interested to hear of any other folks experience with scroll saws on metal as I would like to use this – as it is it languishes at the back of a cupboard.

Regards

Norman

[Sandy MortonParticipant @sandymorton10620]

I have a Hegner scroll saw and I use it for cutting everything from clock brass to firewood! I have found when cutting brass a layer of black vinyl insulating tape underneath the piece being cut makes life very much easier. I don't know if the tape works as a lubricant or as a chip catcher but, for me at least, it most certainly works. hth

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Merlin,

I agree with Norman; with [lots of] practice, the piercing saw is a great tool.

That said, the Sealey scroll saw gets some good reviews here.

At the right price, it certainly looks worth a try.

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Here is what could be done with a piercing saw.

… if your name was Miles.

MichaelG.

[michael mParticipant @michaelm]

You will need to exercise some caution if buying a scroll saw for metal work. Whilst piercing out clock wheels some years ago I had the same thought and subsequently bought a Draper FS16V variable speed scroll saw which I assumed would expedite such jobs. At that time it was one of the few that had variable speed. It was a grave disappointment and after a lot of frustration and broken blades I came to the conclusion it was just too fast, even at lowest speed and gave up and stuck it in a cupboard. It's speed range incidentally is 850-1440. Early last year, having a clear out it resurfaced and after my first thought of taking it to the tip I decided to try to reduce the speed range by fitting a countershaft and pulleys. I settled on a ratio of 4:1 giving a speed range of 212-360. Should you go down this road bear in mind you'll need toothed pulleys and belt for the slow speed. It was much improved by the speed reduction but I felt still too fast and I intend to alter the ratio further. Another problem with these saws is that they tend to lift the work on the upstroke and especially with small parts it's very fatiguing and slightly risky to hold them down by hand so a further mod I intend will be some form of holding down bars as are found on some filing machines. The table is a joke, a very flimsy alloy casting and this is an application that really needs cast iron. Fortunately, in my junk box, I had a piece of 3/8 steel plate some 9" in diameter with a small hole in the middle and this fitted on the table improved stability considerably. I specifically mention a "small" hole because the original table has a rather large hole with an ill-fitting plastic bung into which the edge of the work piece will readily dig under the force of the blade. So now I have a saw which is just useable but find it's difficult to cut to a straight line. I think this may be due to a very sloppy bearing on the top arm which I also intend to resolve if possible.This brings us back to a previous post on some of the indifferent Chinese equipment clones sold and from the picture the Sealey looks pretty much identical to the Draper. Bear in mind also that with metal cutting a dust blower is essential and the one fitted is pretty pathetic at best and useless on slow speeds. I guide the work with one hand, not ideal, and use a rubber blower bulb in the other. I think the basic problem with most scroll saws is that they are designed for woodworking and for this they are probably tolerable. Once I've slowed mine down a bit more and sorted out the bearing I hope to report that I have a useful machine and anyone so inclined could no doubt do likewise. I appreciate that some people love buying a piece of equipment and then wasting time and money getting it fit for purpose, I don't personally but it's an individual decision. As to the question of blades I obtain better results with pinless blades though I had to make replacement holders as the diecast ally ones supplied were rather poor. It's true that the Sealey saw seems to get good reviews but no one mentions cutting metal with them, they really are designed for wood. Certainly at one time a scroll saw magazine was published and when I glanced at them in the newsagents I found them to be totally oriented towards woodcutting. I have no experience of the Hegner but being I believe German it's probably a far superior kettle of fish to the Chinese clones.

Michael

[magpieParticipant @magpie]

I have a scroll saw and would never dream of using it on metal, as Michael says they are far too fast even on the slowest speed. For as long as i can remember i have used a fretsaw rather than a piercing saw for cutting metal, i find i have much more control over the fretsaw than the others. The most important thing is to use the right blade for the job and put plenty of tension on the blade.

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Michael

Thanks – that is pretty much my take on cheaper scroll saws. I await your further experiments and will then decide if it's worthwhile modifying mine or maybe offer it in " as new" condition to the bargain hunters on that site!

From what I read it may well be that the Hegner is a very different animal – but I guess with the price difference that is only to be expected.

Working steadily with a piercing saw can be quite theraputic – safer for the fingers too!

Norman

[merlinParticipant @merlin98989]

Thanks very much for these comprehensive replies.

I have a very few wheels to cut and I remember using a piercing saw for my first clock, when the blade broke frequently. I would start by concentrating hard on doing all the right things – not too much pressure – then I would begin to think of what is for dinner and where to go for summer holidays and ping!

This clock is taking me years to make because I faff about on other things, so I had better not divert diminishing brain cells to a machine that might need modifying and which I will hardly ever use.

Thanks again.

[RJWParticipant @rjw]

Merlin, I can only agree with what everyone else has said about powered scroll saws for clock work, the best advice I could give would be to really get some practice in with your hand fret saw!

The secret really is 'slower is faster' when it comes to hand cutting brass or steel, and use a 'table' of wood clamped to the edge of the bench, a 6" x 3" rectangle around 1/2" thick or a tad less is good for most work, with a deep 'V' cut into the front edge.

I tried a powered scroll saw to fret out a steel hand I was making, it was a very harsh cutting action because as said, they run far too fast, and in this case turned the blade blue in a heartbeat, I was also damned lucky not to have a stray bit of blade impale my hand when it lifted the pattern off the table and went bang!
Not tried the power saw with brass, but the cuttting action will still be quite brutal and not a little scary!

The hand in the link below was one I made from scratch in steel, hand cut with a fret saw with no design to work from other than the hour hand, this was prior to bluing it, I'm certainly no Mr Miles, but the owner was happy with it, and considering I only make maybe a couple or three clock hands a year, I wasn't too disappointed with it either, but it shows what can be done with a bit of patience even with not a lot of regular practice!
I use the same method for crossing wheels too, so I suppose I do get a bit of practice there, but brass is a damn sight easier to hand cut than steel, you just have to be careful to ensure the blade cuts where you want it to cut otherwise it will run off very quickly!

John.

**LINK**

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by RJW on 01/02/2013 23:15:17:

The hand in the link below was one I made from scratch in steel, hand cut with a fret saw with no design to work from other than the hour hand, <etc.>

John.

**LINK**

Nice work John !

By the way, my own preferred "table" is a piece of 1/2" Tufnol with two different size "V" notches in it. [I find that the small "V" gives better support on small items]. It's firmly fixed to a "post" of timber, which is clamped in the big bench-vice.

MichaelG.

[RJWParticipant @rjw]

Thanks Michael, a second smaller 'V' is a good idea, although I've always managed with the 'V' in my table because it's mostly longcase stuff I get to hack around with, so even escape wheels are fairly big,
I tend to be cheap so an offcut of some old plywood suffices for my 'V' table, I'd imagine your tufnol table is easier to keep clean though, mine's looking decidedly disreputable now!

A table fixed into a bench vice would be luxury for me because I have to take the under bench drawer out every time to use the table, but my bench has to double up as a watch bench, so it's high enough with my office swivel chair set low for that work, but low enough for clock work with the seat set high, so a table set in a bench vice (has to be a clamp on type) would be too high unfortunately,
Hopefully when my garage extension is done I'll enjoy a dedicated clock bench and area so I'm not comiting the cardinal sin of fixing clocks and watches in both the same room and on the same bench and because it's in what was a spare bedroom, regular earache from SWMBO (clock work is unutterably filthy)!

This link shows the minute hand fettled and fitted up, and for anyone interested, the Avenell shown, is a high quality 5 pillar 8 day movement, it was a rare treat to get my paws on that one, but it was butchered beyond belief!

**LINK**

The link below is a minute hand for a Georgian 30 hour clock, fretted out of steel before any work done to it, again no pattern to work to as the original hand was lost!
People tend to push clock hands backwards, and when near the hour, the motionwork locks up on the lifting piece but they keep shoving anyway, and the hands being very thin in all cross sections, plus work hardened and brittle, snap like carrots!

**LINK**

John.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

For a cutting speed, think of the speed of hand cutting, about 80 strokes a min for steel, and you could proberbly double that for brass. A bit of candle wax to lub the blade can help. On a metal table, tape on the back of the work is a good shock absorber. Tufnel or similar would be a good surface, even a bit of MDF attached to the metal table could be of use. Ian S C

[peter walton 1Participant @peterwalton1]

Best thing I had was a Hobbies treadle scroll saw, took some geting used to but as slow as you like.

Sorry n ow I got rid of it.

I sup[pose you could convert a saw to foot control with the right motor, a sewing machine motor springs to mind!

peter

[michael mParticipant @michaelm]

Merlin, don't become too discouraged too soon with the piercing saw. It's a craft skill and like most if not all craft skills it takes practice and once you've achieved competence you'll do it almost automatically and with gratifying results. It's best done sitting down, with the sawing board at a height that you find comfortable and that gives you a good visual view of the marked line. For very small parts a narrow slot in the board, in addition to the vees is helpful. Carefully directed artificial lighting may also help. For myself I clamp the sawing board to the bench top and have a small halogen desk light though I know some people like to do it with the board almost at chin level. Just whatever works for you. Use a blade with the correct TPI (TPCm) for the thickness of the work and as has been said it needs to be well tensioned so that when plucked it gives a high pitched "ping", don't worry, they're surprisingly strong in tension. I've never been tempted to buy cheap blades blades from e-bay though they may be OK but get mine from clock and watch material dealers. Coming back to the use of scroll saws, the principle disadvantage of piercing saws is the shallow throat depth. John refers to use of a fret saw, which will obviate that problem but they are somewhat more unwieldy in use. My biggest problem with them is that you're further from the workpiece and having imperfect vision find focussing on the line more difficult. Notwithstanding that the same argument about learning a craft skill applies. Peter's suggestion of a sewing machine motor may not be applicable as they're not terribly powerful, usually about 90W and achieve the best torque running at high speed. Their top speed is often about 6000RPM so a considerable reduction ratio would be required for a scroll saw which may be difficult to fit within the footprint of the saw. If the latter wouldn't be an issue then no doubt it could be used.

Michael

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

The link below is a minute hand for a Georgian 30 hour clock, fretted out of steel before any work done to it, again no pattern to work to as the original hand was lost!
John.

That looks as if you marked it out on paper a stuck the paper to the steel. I've tried that and the paper always comes unstuck. What adhesive do tou use?

Russell.

[magpieParticipant @magpie]

Michael, you are quite right about blades of ebay, i bought some from an ebay jewller last year they were made in India and total rubbish, i find German ones the best. I have been using a fretsaw for over 60 years now and i allways use it with the frame tucked under my arm which makes it much more stable. I am trying to imagine how all you clock fans are reacting to my fibre optic clock which will ( when finished ) have NO HANDS ! with disstain no doubt.

Cheers Derek.

P.S. pics of said clock in "my photos" dont know how to put a link on.

[RJWParticipant @rjw]

Russell, I drew out a few styles before I got the shape I wanted, and they had to be the correct length from the centre to the outer line of the chapter ring,

To stick the template down, I first give the steel a good rub with 180 grit abrasive paper, then wipe it over with lighter fuel to degrease it, then spread the area for my template with fast drying liquid superglue, not the thick stuff!
You need to do it outside ideally because the vapour is a bit grim if you get a whiff, and the heat it generates is awesome, so keep you fingers off it,
I usually wipe the paper over with a lolly stick or something similar, enough to ensure the paper is stuck down all over and to squeeze out excess glue, I used a bit of scrap cotton cloth once, but the bugger stuck to the paper and I had to start over again, fortunately I'd scanned the template and saved it in my 'Clock Hands' pattern folder, so all I had to do was print off another, I'd recommend anyone do that!

If (when) the paper does come off during cutting, which it will when you get onto the thin neck of a hand, just put some more glue on it and dab it down!

Make sure you cut on the waste side of the line too, you can see I got a bit too close on one bit where I wasn't paying enough attention, which meant some extra filing to get the shape back, fortunately the neck was a bit on the thick side, the rest is 'eyeballed' once the paper is removed!

Derek, to put a link into a posting, if you look on the top toolbar, the third icon on the bottom row is the 'insert link' tab, it will open another box where you can paste the url, just open the photo you want to use and copy the web address shown in the browser address bar, there's also an insert image from album'  icon which i missed, it's the camera icon on the top row.

No disdain about the fibre optic clock BTW, I'm watching it with some interest even though I've no real interest in electric clocks (I'm a bit of a luddite and would make a clock the old fashioned way without jewels just because I can)
I just stand back in admiration anyway of everyone who is able to dedicate the time to their project whatever it is!

John

Edited By RJW on 02/02/2013 17:38:12

[Richard MarksParticipant @richardmarks80868]

Gentlemen

Use a piercing saw as opposed to a scroll saw as you can achieve a better standard of accuracy,I have tried both and still have the scars to prove it, I used to make silver jewellery and you learn not to make mistakes at those prices, regarding blades, obviously match the tpi of the blade to the work in hand also be aware that some blades are actually pressed out and wont cut in a straight line no matter how much you try, this is much worse with a scrollsaw than a piercing saw, even cutting wood it is difficult to cut a straight line on a scrollsaw it takes a lot of practise and some very expensive blades to even come near.

Regards

Dick

[Sandy MortonParticipant @sandymorton10620]

Almost all the scroll saw blades which I have used are biased in one direction because the set of the teeth is to one side only. I have had a lot of success with blades which have spiral teeth and will comfortably cut in any direction. imvho & hth

[merlinParticipant @merlin98989]

Wow! What have I started!

After having read all these miles of appreciated advice I have decided to be content with my hand-propelled piercing saw and try to concentrate better when using it.

Information like all this, though, is invaluable if it can be accessed in 'Search'

Thanks.

[speelwerkParticipant @speelwerk]

For me the best piercing saw blades are made by Herkules and Bergeon, they go were you want them to go, even in 3mm gaugeplate. Niko.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Merlin,

Not sure if you are aware but, the Search box on the home page of this site is much more effective than the one at the top of the thread.

MichaelG.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by speelwerk on 02/02/2013 18:30:58:

For me the best piercing saw blades are made by Herkules and Bergeon, they go were you want them to go, even in 3mm gaugeplate. Niko.

I find the swiss blades from Meadows and Passemore work well. They sell online and what's more they have a depot here in France.

Russell.

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