Screw cutting problem

[phillip burbankParticipant @phillipburbank45787]

Hello everyone, I'm looking for some advice on a screwcutting problem that I have come up against.

I'm trying to cut a 3/8" x 24 t.p.i. on my Myford ML7. I have set the cutting tool height exactly using a DTI and a height gauge just as I have for all my other cutting tools. The compound slide is set at 30 degrees and checked using a friends vernier protractor, and the tool set to the correct angle using a Moore & Wright screw cutting gauge.

I put a piece of waste mild steel in the 3 jaw chuck with a dead centre in the tail stock lubricated of course. The cutting tool was moved to just a scratch cut using the cross slide (and the reading noted ).and the half nut engaged. The cutting was taken away from the material using the cross slide and the half nut disengaged etc. A new cut put on using the compound slide, cutting tool moved back to the original position and another cut taken.

I repeated this perhaps 4 times, only putting on a cut of 0.004" each time and then examined the thread cut so far using a magnifying glass only to find that it seems to only be cutting on the tailstock side of the thread not the headstock end, so doesn't seem to be advancing.

I haven't done any screwcutting on a lathe since I was an apprentice, but have looked in my old college work books, some workshop practice series books,L.H. Sparey the amateurs lathe and some videos on utube etc. They all do the same as I am doing, except their threads seem to be advancing, whereas mine don't, can anyone offer up any advice please, as I am at a total loss.

Many thanks in anticipation and advance.

Phillip.

[phillip burbankParticipant @phillipburbank45787]

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

It would help (perhaps) to check that the lead screw is turning, and that the half-nut is engaging properly. As soon as you engage the half nuts, the carriage assembly should move slowly towards the headstock. If you have set up the correct gears for the desired pitch, and they are engaged properly with each other, the only other factor is the toggle arrangement at the far left end of the headstock. This is operated by a lever (like the similar one at the other end of the headstock with brings in the back-gear for very slow speeds), This is arranged so that there is a central position which is 'neutral' – giving no drive to the leadscrew, and the two – up and down – give forwards and backwards rotation.

And – If gears are turning but no drive results, there may be a key missing in one of the gears.

Check that all these bits are working as they should, and if the leadscrew is still not rotating, come back with further details and more advice should be available.

Cheers, Tim

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by phillip burbank on 13/03/2022 11:53:32:

Hello everyone, I'm looking for some advice on a screwcutting problem that I have come up against.

I'm trying to cut a 3/8" x 24 t.p.i. on my Myford ML7. I have set the cutting tool height exactly using a DTI and a height gauge just as I have for all my other cutting tools. The compound slide is set at 30 degrees and checked using a friends vernier protractor

You can't set a standard ML7 topslide to 30 degrees from square to the lathe axis. It won't turn that far. When the graduations on the topslide say 30 degrees, it is 30 degrees from parallel to the lathe axis. Which is not where you want it for screwcutting.

With the ML7 you have to use the method common in industry, to save time resetting the topslide. Leave the topslide in the normal 0 degree position, ie parallel to the lathe axis. Then use the topslide to advance the tool by half of the depth of cut every time you put on a cut using the cross slide. So if you feed the cross slide in 10 thou, advance the topslide 5 thou,and so on. This by the miracle of sines and cosines and dumb good luck, moves the tool point in a path that turns out to be a very slight bit under 30 degrees, so perfect for screwcutting. It works for 60 degree and 55 degree threads.

For 29 degree Acme threads, you advance the topslide by a quarter of the infeed. So 10 thou on the cross slide and 2.5 thou on the topslide.

Super 7s and ancient Drummonds and just about every other lathe can pivot the topslide to the correct 30 degress from square, or 60 degrees from the lathe axis, but they forgot to do it on the ML7 for some reason. Cheapness of manufacture I would suspect. You can modify the ML7 with two strips of steel attached to the sides of the cross slide with holes drilled and tapped to take the topslide anchor bolts, putting them at 90 degrees from the original position. Too much faff. Everyone uses the above described method instead. Or just plunges straight in and hopes for the best.

Edited By Hopper on 13/03/2022 12:24:01

Edited By Hopper on 13/03/2022 12:28:21

[JAParticipant @ja]

Nothing really to add to Tim's and Hopper's advice.

Before I start machining metal on a lathe or milling machine I try to do a zero cut. That is with the tool a couple of thou away from the surface to be cut. This just confirms (or otherwise) that everything is correct and I am not about to make a mess of things.

JA

[phillip burbankParticipant @phillipburbank45787]

Thanks gents, it makes perfect sense to me now hopper, I have set it to 30 degrees from parallel, not from square to the job.

I wasn't a machinist back when I was an apprentice, but an apprentice fitter who had a good apprenticeship covering machining, welding, sheet metal work etc at a training centre for the first year with block release to college. Then back to the main company and put with a skilled man for the rest of my time, still with block release and day release to college.

All of this was 50 yrs ago and so a great deal has gone from my memory.

I don't think that I used the right word when I said advancing Tim, it's more not moving forward with the pitch of the thread, but seems to be lagging behind as though the cutting tool had been moved away from the headstock direction to the taistock direction all be it at an angle, with the compound slide rather than moved forward. If that makes sense, it 's rather difficult for me to describe it. Please forgive me.

JA, I indeed put a scratch cut on to check that all was as it should be, after 1 cut all seemed good, so after 4 cuts and a look at the thread using a magnifying glass showed the problem that I had.

Thanks again for the great help that you have given me, I can get in the workshop and get it sorted out now. It's nice to know that there is always someone out there who is willing to give their advice gained from experience and knowledge.

[Anonymous]

I don't mess about setting the topslide at an angle when screwcutting, but leave it set parallel. The cross slide can then be simply advanced by the required thread depth. Only one number needed, and one handle to twiddle.

Andrew

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I don't offset either but took these photos some time ago which illustrate Hoppers point about the angle as it crops up quite often

You want it like this

But I suspect you have it like this

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Though unlikely to be Phillip's problem, I'll mention a foolish mistake I made last week! After shimming the cutter for height in a 4-way tool-post, I forgot to tighten it. Thus the tool slid back in the holder when I thought it was advancing…

Like Andrew and Jason I rarely bother with the 30° or 27½° method. I prefer shaped carbide threading inserts and they don't seem to need as much help as HSS.

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 13/03/2022 13:51:36

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

I agree with Dave, Andrew and Jason; offsetting the compound slide seems a complete waste of effort to me.

And why only 0.004" cuts? You might just as well cut with a toothbrush

[phillip burbankParticipant @phillipburbank45787]

A 0.004" cut was taken to see if all was good after the initial scratch cut was taken, if your unsure or need to gain confidence taking it steadily is how you gain confidence, and experience.

As I said in the first post it's some 50yrs since I did any screw cutting in a lathe, so the toothbrush was my choice to try and get back to it.

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

I never offset the compound, and it could complicate matters when learning. A first skim is useful to check if the pitch has been set correctly. I start with large cuts and reduce the depth after each pass, as the cutter is removing more metal as it gets deeper. The last cut may be 0.001" followed by a spring cut at the same setting.

 It would be a good idea to practice with some aluminium bar, turning off each thread for another go, it is easier on the tooling when learning.

Edited By old mart on 13/03/2022 21:36:19

[HuubParticipant @huub]

Basically I don't use a 30° / 27°.5° threading infeed angle even when doing CNC threading. But if the lathe is reaching it's torque limit, I use the 30° / 27.5° angle so that only one side of the threading tool is cutting. This reduces the cutting force a bit.

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

if you have a retracting topside the set over method is a doddle and still only one knob to twiddle

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

I believe the advantage of setting the top-slide to 30° for 60° metric and Unified Threads (27.5° for 55° Whitworth), is that it reduces load on the cutter by causing it to cut mostly in the forward direction. The angle also allows finer depth control.

I suspect the technique dates back over a century to when cutters where made of ordinary tool-steel. These had to be treated gently because they needed frequent resharpening and were easily spoiled by overheating. Angle cutting became less necessary when HSS was invented because it's about 5 times tougher than tool-steel, and carbide is about 5 times better again.

Just a guess, but maybe threading with angled HSS improves finish? Carbide has many advantages, but I find it's fussier about depth of cut, feed-rate and RPM than HSS when finish really matters.

Dave

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

+1 for a retracting topslide (with carbide)

[HuubParticipant @huub]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 14/03/2022 09:35:34:

Just a guess, but maybe threading with angled HSS improves finish? Carbide has many advantages, but I find it's fussier about depth of cut, feed-rate and RPM than HSS when finish really matters.

The HSS cutting edges are sharper than (unpolished) carbide and give a better finish at the low RPM threading is mostly done. The sharper edges reduce the cutting force and allows a shallower cutting depth.

[Anonymous]

This is a 3/4" BSF thread screwcut with a carbide insert plunging straight in:

Can't remember at what spindle speed, but not fast, probably 125rpm. Finish looks ok to me. Finish cuts would have been a couple of thou DOC.

Andrew

[Mark Davies 4Participant @markdavies4]

That finish is perfect. Well done for getting a decent pic of that.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Er, i know lots of people like the topslide parallel but that's not what it is for. Lots of early lathes didn't have one so it was added to enable tapers etc, You should be able to set it over and leave it there, except for the infernal nuisance of Whitworth and BA being different from unified and metric.

[Pete RimmerParticipant @peterimmer30576]

Top slide set parallel to the bed is handy for doing coarse acme threads on a smaller lathe. Use a narrower tool designed for smaller pitch acme then when you get to your depth use the top slide to feed into one flank until you hit your width.

It's also very handy for picking up an existing thread.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

I just reminded myself that the Mach3 threading wizard has an infeed angle parameter you can set. For metric/UN threads this is set to 29 degrees. Obviously there is no topslide involved but the wizard will make a horizontal offset on each cut so the tool effectively advances at that angle.

Here's a thread I cut for an ER16 collet closer using a home ground HSS tool, speed ~215 rpm. Despite what they say Mach3 can thread perfectly well.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Bazyle on 15/03/2022 19:36:20:

Er, i know lots of people like the topslide parallel but that's not what it is for. Lots of early lathes didn't have one so it was added to enable tapers etc, You should be able to set it over and leave it there, except for the infernal nuisance of Whitworth and BA being different from unified and metric.

Except on the Myford the top slide handle gets in the way of the cross slide handle.

Standard American procedure is to keep top slide at 30 degrees from the lathe axis so it doez not foul the tailstock.

In industry in Oz and Africa I only ever saw the top slide left permanently parallel to the axis. Screwcutting was all done by advancing topslide by half of the infeed of the cross slide. It works for both 55 and 60 deg threads as you only need most of the cutting done by the leading edge, not all. The trailing edge, even with negative rake, takes a fine finishing cut on that flank.

Topslide was usually set once with a dial indicator and left there so it turned perfectly parallel on small jobs or measured distance to a shoulder etc. You only ever disturbed it on the rare occasion of turning a short taper. Certainly not for screwcutting which was a regular task.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Hopper on 16/03/2022 00:30:37:

Posted by Bazyle on 15/03/2022 19:36:20:

Er, i know lots of people like the topslide parallel but that's not what it is for. Lots of early lathes didn't have one so it was added to enable tapers etc, You should be able to set it over and leave it there, except for the infernal nuisance of Whitworth and BA being different from unified and metric.

Except on the …

Might have changed since the early lathes!

In Jason's picture, where he shows which way round the top-slide is angled for screw-cutting, it can be seen the QTCP hasn't been turned yet to present the cutter at a right-angle to the job. The QTCP is in it's normal position at right angles to the top-slide.

I have a 4-way tool-post rather than a QTCP and it's accurately positioned at a right-angle to the top-slide by a spring-detent. Definitely designed to be used at right-angles, with a positive lock. The tool-post can be clamped at any other angle to the top-slide but the friction grip is reduced and the detent inoperative : not ideal for heavy cutting, but plenty good enough for threading.

An advantage of having the top-slide at an exact right-angle is the tailstock is notched to clear it. The extra space is used to widen the saddle for extra stability.

There doesn't seem to be any advantage in angling the top-slide when screw-cutting with a 'modern' lathe. (i.e the boxy looking machines designed with an eye on carbide a decade or two after WW2.) You can either go straight in to screw-cut, which is what I usually do, or reduce the cutting load by periodically advancing the top-slide slightly on repeated passes.

Not doing a hard-sell on straight-in threading as being the best way to screw-cut on all machines! I think it depends on the condition and design of the lathe, the cutter type, and the material.

Dave

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Yep, it's all horses for courses. And every jockey has his own preferred riding style.

But every punter knows the winner of course!

[Author]

Posts