Saving energy

[John MCParticipant @johnmc39344]

As the cost of heating our homes rises I'm interested in any way I can save some money on, in my circumstance, solid fuel.

I came across this recently, https://heathero.ie/

If it does as claimed then I may well be interested. Thing is, after reading the description, trawling the web etc I'm none the wiser as to how it works!

I watched a YT clip of the device being presented on the Irish version of "dragons den", the inventor didn't seem to really understand how the device worked. That may have been nerves through being on the TV?

So, over to you lot, any ideas?

[John MCParticipant @johnmc39344]

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

It has some of the hallmarks of those gadgets you plug in to any socket to clean up the electricity supply or the magnets you put round the cold water pipe to stop limescale.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

From the simple description it sounds like it pressurises a vented heating system and claims to improve the flow by doing so.
I'm not convinced. Sounds like a good way of finding leaks and weak spots in a system.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Save 50 per cent on your heating bill? Sounds too good to be true.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 23/11/2022 08:05:18:

[…]

Sounds like a good way of finding leaks and weak spots in a system.

.

At the recommended head of 8metres, applied to a previously unpressurised system, I am inclined to agree.

MichaelG.

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Looks to be basically a temperature controlled flow restrictor dooby. I imagine the idea is to effectively stop the pump pulling water through the boiler if the boiler output temperature is lower than the set optimum value.

Theoretically an open vented pumped system can pull water through the boiler so fast that it doesn't heat up properly. So the radiators run at too low a temperature and heat is wasted from the fire because the water doesn't have time to absorb all the heat.

Sounds good but mostly pure baloney of the brain baffling variety if the heating sytem has been properly installed.

The latter being a fairly dubious assumption if the plumbers and heating engineers I've met are typical. They may be good on the pipework bit but lack a proper understanding of heat transfer effects. The how to do it guides they use seem very dubious to me. But back in the day Her Maj paid me on the assumption that understanding thermal signatures, infra red sensing and all the other hotter than background stuff was my business.

May have some effect on a cheap enclosed fire with back boiler shoehorned onto a system laid out for a pumped combi or gas boiler feed. But even then its mostly an edge of the performance envelope effect. Those things are so bad anyway that there are much more important things to sort.

On a proper pot boiler system with large bore pipe runs intended for thermo syphon operation you will make things worse.

The old style Crane et al pot boilers are remarkably efficient in a thermo syphon system given a decent two storey or more head. Messy and individual room temperature control is a total bitch but efficient. The old system we had when I were a lad would run over two days on one of those vertical "pour scuttles" full of fuel. Probably about a foot diameter holding maybe two foot of coal. My job to clean in the morning, top up twice a day and bank up for the night. Such joy when we went all modern with gas. Dad unimpressed that the heating bill went up.

Might be interesting to see what could be done with a pot boiler pump assisted thermo syphon system given modern controls on the radiators with engineered bypass loops and a servo operated damper on the boiler. Auto fuel feed too please.

Clive

[Clive IndiaParticipant @cliveindia]

I think it's like going back 40 years – circulation by convection.
Saves a little electricity by not having a pump – but then they add one in anyway.

I think it's another example of having a good website to give the impression of competence.
Does it help to have Paddy telling you how good it is? Oh dear – is that racist?

There are one or two others around – this one takes the biscuit for me – adverts crawling all over Youtube suggesting you can heat your home for very little.

 

Edited By Clive India on 23/11/2022 10:14:55

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Posted by Clive India on 23/11/2022 10:04:49:

– this one takes the biscuit for me –

Edited By Clive India on 23/11/2022 10:14:55

Blaupunkt! How the mighty have fallen…

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

I too am suspicious of strong marketing and obscure technical descriptions!

However, I think the claim of improved efficiency here comes from the system being able to send heat to direct to radiators rather than via a heat exchanger, which probably is a benefit because heat exchangers waste some heat.

An efficiency improvement of "up to 50%" is claimed; maybe, but remember "up to" claims allow for 0% as well! I think how well it works depends on the circumstances.

Solid fuel boilers have a fundamental fuel efficiency problem, which is that the flame can't be adjusted to match demand. The fire burns even when no heat is wanted and although some is stored in the heat exchanger, the system avoids blowing up by wastefully venting heat. In contrast, oil, gas and Electric systems all stop consuming fuel once water is up to temperature, and only come back on when needed.

Solid fuel works well when the system runs more or less continually, or when the operator fires it up and down as necessary. A common arrangement is for a solid fuel boiler to cheaply heat a tankful of water, and then have an electric element or gas/oil boiler to cover top up demand. Efficiency is improved by combining two systems.

Cost and efficiency aren't quite the same thing. In financial terms, solid fuel is cheaper per therm at the boiler than electricity because there are no conversion costs. But solid fuel is poor at providing heat when and where it's needed. Most of the thermal value of cheap solid fuel goes up the chimney. In contrast, electric immersion heaters waste almost no heat, – far more thermally efficient – but the fuel is more expensive. When comparing heating systems, the per therm cost of fuel can be grossly misleading – an electric system might be cheaper because it only delivers heat where it's needed. At the moment gas is the best compromise: moderately cheap fuel with good automatic control reducing waste.

I don't have to worry about it. My home and lifestyle are completely unsuited to solid fuel heating! But solid fuel works well for others, who might take a punt on it. I notice the device hails from Eire where there are plenty of isolated homes and peat is a popular cheap fuel.

Dave

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

We use the Junkie system when we're in front of the telly, a couple of decent sleeping bags

Good exercise for you getting into and out of one too

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Here's another one "the only aproved…..". (advertising garbage of course)

The only 'improvement' you can make to a solid fuel boiler is to fit one of the several expensive flow control systems that recirculate the warm water round the boiler until it reaches about 60C while ensuring a failover to gravity flow if the pump breaks or loses electricity. This is to reduce the period of low temperature combustion producing condensation (hence rust) and unburned hydrocarbons that rot even stainless flues.
This uses a thermostatic valve – normally the same as a car radiator one actually. Ideally they would close when hot but because they do actually use a car one the system gets a bit convoluted to make an open when hot one work.
They are called "charging stations" or "hear charger" eg this one. Or this one by laddomat who have probably been in the business the longest..

Anyway what you actually get is a few years extra life on your boiler and chimney liner before rot out and maybe a few % increased efficiency for an hour a day.

Nit pick. The diagrams fail to show the mandatory heat link radiator (water tank has valve so non-compliant) and injector-T and overheat vent. In theory if you make a change to the existing 20th century arrangement you have to fit the extra mandatory extras.

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

I take these wonderful claims with a pinch of salt, its a shame that some people waste money on them.

[John Doe 2Participant @johndoe2]

Sadly, a lot of folk have no technical knowledge or appreciation of basic physics, or how things work generally.

But you can't blame people for grasping at such things when fuel prices are so high and the energy suppliers are making BILLIONS in profits.

The price of fuel in Saudi Arabia is, or was, a few cents per litre, so why is our own North sea oil so expensive to us?

.

Edited By John Doe 2 on 24/11/2022 11:28:02

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

Posted by John Doe 2 on 24/11/2022 11:25:38:

Sadly, a lot of folk have no technical knowledge or appreciation of basic physics, or how things work generally.

But you can't blame people for grasping at such things when fuel prices are so high and the energy suppliers are making BILLIONS in profits.

The price of fuel in Saudi Arabia is, or was, a few cents per litre, so why is our own North sea oil so expensive to us?

.

Edited By John Doe 2 on 24/11/2022 11:28:02

Tax….. ?

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Saudi production volumes are enormous compared to UK, they make enough selling to the world to subsidise their own use.

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Posted by derek hall 1 on 24/11/2022 11:59:11:

Posted by John Doe 2 on 24/11/2022 11:25:38:

Sadly, a lot of folk have no technical knowledge or appreciation of basic physics, or how things work generally.

But you can't blame people for grasping at such things when fuel prices are so high and the energy suppliers are making BILLIONS in profits.

The price of fuel in Saudi Arabia is, or was, a few cents per litre, so why is our own North sea oil so expensive to us?

.

Edited By John Doe 2 on 24/11/2022 11:28:02

Tax….. ?

Yes mainly tax, and why are we so highly taxed?? I will stop there as it's political.

Tony

[Bruce NewmanParticipant @brucenewman56212]

It looks like it reconfigures the pump to pull the heated water through the stove instead of pushing cold water through and pushes hot water through radiators and HW cylinder instead of pulling. It may improve efficiency and it seems to be logical.

Incidentally when I installed my heating, I put the pump at the highest point pumping downwards and found that when I had to replace the pump, I had installed it in the one position that the replacement would not work, I had to drill a small hole internally to get it to prime itself.

[John MCParticipant @johnmc39344]

Thanks for the replies guys. I did so want this to be worth doing but my suspicions have been confirmed.

I think it may help in a gravity feed heating system, something from the days when a house had a cellar where the boiler would be sited, with all the radiators above then the water would tend to circulate without the encouragement of a pump. Having said that it would probably be cheaper to fit a pump!

I think pumping water around the (Soild fuel fired) system too quickly would be a bad thing. As has been stated, water needs to spend time in the boiler to pick up heat, passing the water through too quickly will cool the boiler too much. I wonder if the "designer" thinks pressurising the system will mitigate this?

When I installed my system I looked at various devices that would actually improve performance, Laddomat, I think, was one of them.

I fitted an additional thermostat to the boiler that switches the circulating pump off when the water in the boiler drops below a certain temperature. This does two things, allows the water temperature to "catch up", the pump intially cycles on/off a few time before running continuously. It also keeps the boiler hot enough to stop internal condensation. This is the same as devices such as the Laddomat does, more or less. Considerably cheaper, the bits cost a few pounds from RS.

I see that the designer got €60,000 from the the Irish version of Dragons Den. Are the dragons smarter than us, have we missed something?

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by John MC on 25/11/2022 07:52:57:

[…]

I see that the designer got €60,000 from the the Irish version of Dragons Den. Are the dragons smarter than us, have we missed something?

.

Speaking for myself :

What I had missed, originally, was the explanatory document that is linked just under the link to the video:

**LINK**

https://heathero.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Heat-Hero-Gravity-Manual.pdf

MichaelG.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Posted by John Haine on 23/11/2022 10:16:14:

Posted by Clive India on 23/11/2022 10:04:49:

– this one takes the biscuit for me –

Edited By Clive India on 23/11/2022 10:14:55

Blaupunkt! How the mighty have fallen…

They were bought out from Bosch then went bust and the brand name was bought. "The brand is now managed by GIP Development SARL of Luxembourg and is used on various product groups worldwide."
All too common these days e.g. Sports Direct.

Robert G8RPI.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

I'm not convinced by this needing time to pick up the heat idea. Surely the water will reach a temperature at which the heat lost by the radiators balances the heat released by the fuel, allowing for efficiency of the boiler. The boiler efficiency will actually increase if the water is cooler. Thermo syphon systems must be a challenge to control in a multistory house.

[John MCParticipant @johnmc39344]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 25/11/2022 08:21:48:

Posted by John MC on 25/11/2022 07:52:57:

[…]

I see that the designer got €60,000 from the the Irish version of Dragons Den. Are the dragons smarter than us, have we missed something?

.

Speaking for myself :

What I had missed, originally, was the explanatory document that is linked just under the link to the video:

**LINK**

https://heathero.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Heat-Hero-Gravity-Manual.pdf

MichaelG.

Read that before posting here. Still didn't understand the device. The suggestion is that the device is an injector, an expensive one at that, £20 vs £200+.

When I designed my system I made provision to fit an injector(s) along with motorised valve(s), the system works well without so never bothered. Without an injector my system takes longer to heat the hot cylinder when the heating pump is running. But, with an injector fitted the radiators would take longer to warm up.

The emperor's new clothes comes to mind…….

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