Sandown photos and thoughts on the show

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Don't underestimate the huge effort that goes into organising and promoting the exhibition, particularly by Mike law and Steve Eaton, but also by the dozens of judges, stewards, clubs etc. Only a handful of MTM staff are able to contribute, and our input has to fit around full-time jobs. personally, I'm amazed that it all comes together so well at all!.

But there's no complacency, we understand the need to work hard to keep the Exhibition going. What we really, really, need is for those who enjoy it to evangelise and encourage others to go, the one thing that will secure the future of the exhibition is FOOTFALL!

Neil

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Again Neil I totally agree and I am very greatfull for all the hard work that is done. Footfall is everything which is what I have been saying. Maybe you could start some sort of discussion as to a strategy to help this.

regards Martin

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Neil;

If it matters – the show door made 40 quid off of my wife and I; two days. That's double the take.

I did pre-order some metric fine and LH taps from Tracy Tools, and picked them up then.

On Friday AM, the card lady sold my wife some cards; I think she said that most of the people that stopped by were foreign; NZ, Canada, etc.

Would have liked to pick up some 3-1/2" gauge jewellery, but nobody selling locomotive castings and small parts like that. Still, left about 100 quid lighter in the pocket, and a KG or two heavier on the luggage for the flight home.

I did put up some pictures with a quick description; **LINK** – that I (we) went back for a second day speaks that it was a good show, at least for me.

John.

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 18/12/2014 09:49:49:

> Ally Pally is VERY expensive to rent a stand.

It's INCREDIBLY expensive to rent an exhibition venue, and the trade stands and door also have to pay for the club and competition space.

Other than that I'm not going to comment on costs, for obvious reasons, but suffice to say running an exhibition or attending one is not primarily about making lots of money, its about profile, and in the case of the model Engineer Exhibition, supporting and promoting the hobby, particularly through the competitions.

Neil

So what makes that show what it is compared to Sandown? Is Sandown the wrong venue or the wrong time of year or just geographically bad? Not having a pop (I like Sandown) so much as trying to analyse how to improve things.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 18/12/2014 09:49:49:

> Ally Pally is VERY expensive to rent a stand.

It's INCREDIBLY expensive to rent an exhibition venue, and the trade stands and door also have to pay for the club and competition space.

 

Other than that I'm not going to comment on costs, for obvious reasons, but suffice to say running an exhibition or attending one is not primarily about making lots of money, its about profile, and in the case of the model Engineer Exhibition, supporting and promoting the hobby, particularly through the competitions.

Neil

If it is about profile & supporting the hobby does not say much about MHS/MTM if they could not muster a stand

As I said earlier and Chris has said above someone needs to look at Ally Pally and see why 3 times as many traders go to that than Sandown. Forget all the arguments about web trading, costs etc 200% more still can afford to do a show in the South East but choose not to make that one show Sandown.

AP has a similar number of club stands and the display/flying area to teh left is as large if not larger than the competition/loan section at Sandown so they can also support the same non monymaking floor area.

J

 

PS I have altered the title as the thread has changed direction.

Edited By JasonB on 19/12/2014 08:02:12

[Michael CheckleyParticipant @michaelcheckley34085]

This was my first trip to Sandown with the intention of entering the competition. Fortunately Neil and Mike made it possible for me to post my exhibit the week before and I would visit the show on the Sunday to both enjoy the show and collect my exhibit at the end, so a big thankyou to them for making it possible!

Being a 500 mile round trip we combined the visit to the show with a day in London making a fantastic weekend away. I had looked at the show website beforehand so wasnt expecting the show to be huge. Home and Workshop were there so I was happy! I always try and purchase something from these guys (and have not failed yet!) in the hope they continue to support the shows.

My experience with shows in the model aircraft circles is that the trade bring in the people and what puts the trade off most is the high cost of their pitch. Clearly the organisers have to make enough money to make the show worthwhile but in my opinion bringing the costs to the traders down is the only way to build up a show. Having heard what some of the smaller traders pay I`m amazed they make any money at all and it is just a case of keeping their name fresh in peoples minds.

From an exhibition point of view I would like to see more going on in the way of displays outside and this also applies to Harrogate and the Midlands show. For me its seeing models working that gets me thinking about my next project.

I was really pleased to come away with a certificate from the show but disappointed they did not present the certificates with the rest of the awards due to time constraints. The chap giving out the awards made the point a few times that a certificate of any kind was a prestigious award at Sandown so I think he could have found a few extra minutes to hand them out.

All in all it was a good show and a great weekend away so I will hopefully be doing the same next year!

Mike

[Alan JacksonParticipant @alanjackson47790]

I agree with Mike that the main reason I go to the show is to see the models, especially the new competition models. While seeing the older models displayed is quite interesting, if you have been before they become a bit jaded (saw them last year, sort of thing) The real problem is taking and collecting your exhibit which can be time consuming and expensive. The show, if you exhibit becomes quite a performance, you have to take your exhibit on Thursday before the show starts and then you have to go again on Sunday to take your exhibit away. The Judges are under time pressure to get round and judge the exhibits. This means that if you go on Friday you will probably not see their comments etc. I think Sandown is much more interesting than Ally Pally because of the competition exhibits. while there are only the good efforts of the clubs at Ally Pally which often tends to be a bit samey. Why is it so impossible for the two separate organisations to converge and make one bigger slightly longer show? There must be cost savings in doing this.

Alan

[john jennings 1Participant @johnjennings1]

Having moved North twenty years ago the London shows have been to far and too expensive with on costs. The london venues I went to include: Marylebone Baths, Wembley, and Ally Pally, (The Horticultural Hall strikes a memory but it might have been another show) The more out of town venues like Sandown had not then been included.

If I was nearer London I would want to go to a fairly central location like ALLY Pally (my favourite) and not trog out to Sandown although if using the M25 as access would make it more attractive. I guess this would be true if travelling by train from a distance.

Now when I attended, I wanted to see the models etc and stands showing tools and equipment for real.

But I also regarded the entry fee as a mere start on the days spend. I suppose I must have bought a few items as per catalogue, avoiding the bother of post or telephone ordering (this was ye stone age!). The bulk of my purchases however were off catalogue, either special offers, being cleared at the exhibition, (eg a neat little Myford surface plate) a host of one off items and bits of material and items I never saw or saw listed (like refractory, breeze block size, bricks that were friable enough to cut up to make a mini hearth. The increasing size of Web listings may reduce the range of goods becoming available in this way and hence the attraction of the exhibition.

John

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

I did not visit Sandown for a variety of reasons this year. Thank you all for the photographs and comments made here on the Forum.

Years ago when the show was a Olympia as the Model Show including Model Engineering, there was everything including boats, cars, aeromodelling, etc.. It was at a better time when all the family could and did attend. MTM and MHS have a wide range of Titles, aeromodelling, woodwork, boats etc. Why not do the obvious and bring back a better more general show with wider appeal, including MEX as part of it?

Come to think of it, is that not what Aly Pally has become? The other modelling fraternity also need materials and hence the traders attend in greater number.

Just a suggestion!!

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I recall reading a back-issue with the enthusiastic response from readers of MEW to the move back to the 'Model Engineer Exhibition' from the 'International Model Show'.

That said, I think we have forgotten how much engineering is part of the best of all those other hobbies. My Dad continually bemoans cheque-book boat modellers, but the exhibition proved that there are still brilliant boat modellers about. There was a fair bit of engineering in the Tiger Tank too!*

I do agree that we could widen the net and provide something for the distaff side and younger folks. But we must make sure that the competition remains the core.

Neil

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Neil:

Remember that there was the Makers corner at the MEX – it seemed very busy when I was there.

You are creating the next generation of Model Engineers.

You are also creating the ties between generations, as (as I have found, showing my CNC Unimat at a Maker Faire here) that the younger ones know the computers, but not the tools in use. The reverse for the older generation.

I think it is very astute to bring the Makers into the MEX. Somehow, integrate them better, though!

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, I don't think the Sandown Park venue itself is the problem, but it's geography maybe. It is probably great for those south and south west of London but as you get north of the big London car and lorry park (M25) it gets a very time consuming journey. From my home Harrogate and Esher are more or less the same distance, yet it takes me about 3 hours to get to Harrogate and at least 4 hours to Esher. When going to Harrogate, I have to travel for about an hour to get onto decent speed roads, when going to Esher I can get onto a decent speed road in around 40 minutes. Going clockwise or anti-clockwise on the M25 from my point of entry is the same distance more or less but takes around the same time. I've tried the north/south circular, big mistake, although the distance is sorter it takes at least a half hour + longer.

I had two exhibits in this years exhibition and yes I went down on the Thursday which was not to bad of a journey but returning home took a little longer, as the slow progress of the variable speeds along the M25 down to a number of different parking places along the way put another half an hour on my journey. The distance I've never really been that concerned about but the constant changing fast and slow pace that I incurred this year along parts of the M25 I found very tiring and I'm not getting any younger, this years visit to Sandown may be the last one I do. I do think that many of the traders north of the M25 may find the journey to Sandown more expensive and slow which they can ill-afford, time is money and all that.

Ally Paly is reasonably easy, usually a couple of hours or so for me, but it could be just as easy on the train, which I'm considering doing in the new year. My personal favourite venue was the years at Olympia, which I used to do part car and part train/underground.

I do agree that the competition and the exhibits are of paramount importance, but if the trend of dwindling traders continues, I may not think the journey worthwhile, this year I spent the least amount on tools, so the saving on postage was insignificant in my view. I will just add that I think even the recent Midlands show was down on traders but not as bad as Sandown.

Did get a nice little chat with Neil this year though.

Regards Nick.

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

I'm the opposite. I go for the trade stands because I can try or at least look before I buy and it's nice seeing some of the ingenious ceations of the SMEE members.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

The 1978 Model Engineer show combined the Woodworker show and areas for aircraft flying,RC cars,gem craft and war gaming. As many people on this forum have wide ranging model interests maybe a super model show would increase footfall and the traders would come as they would only have to come to one show instead of three or four. The model engineer show has become quite narrow in its focus, although engines are displayed for boats and aircraft they are not shown in their final application. Boating lakes and flying areas used to feature at shows in the past but now we only have traction engines and locos. Sandown has plenty of open space for outdoor flying weather permitting.

Mike

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Or find a venue with enough indoor flying room, if they can do it at AP and the old Olympia then don't see why not elsewhere especially with the move over to electric flight. A straight run of track to give rides would also help as they used to have upstairs at Wembly. The Elmbridge club that put on the RC show at sandown had flying along the finish straight, control line in the winners circle and cars/ boats out on the grandstand terraces

Again it comes down to too many shows, in the past MAP had several titles that covered Engineering, model flying, boats, cars, plastic modeling so it made sense to have one 9 day show that featured them all. To do the same now would just stretch the number of punters even further as there are now shows for each of these different branches of the hobby

[magpieParticipant @magpie]

I don't make locos or traction engines, but I do love to see and admire the workmanship in both. I have a good machine shop and very much like to see the trade stands (even if they do always relieve me of much cash). In my youth I built many model aircraft and still enjoy every aspect of modelling, so I would love to see an exhibition like the one staged at Manchester in recent years, however that only ran for two years due to the lack of traders attending. I will NEVER attend any show in or around London as A) I no longer have the patience to deal with traffic jams, and B) all support services (IE catering Etc.) are a total rip off. So I will stick with the best of the lot, Harrogate.

Cheers Derek.

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

My local club is the NDSME and every year they organise a coach trip to the AP event.

I've only been to AP twice in 28 years, the first in 1988 when living in Bucks, with a car load of work colleagues, nearly killing my calf muscles walking up that bl@@dy hill from the car park and having to do so backwards a few times much to the hilarity of my work mates, and the other from darkest Norfolk courtesy of the club.

The first was memorable in that it was my first, having read and devoured all info about it that was published in ME whilst living if Jo'burg.

Seeing the miniatures in the flesh was something to behold, but the drool inducing sight was the castings and material that was so plentiful. I did my best when I had my shop, but coud never come close choicewise

From an exhibitors viewpoint, I can confirm that it takes a huge amount of effort and considerable cost to have a stand as I found out the first time I did so.

I was fortunate that in SA at the time, all shops had by law to close at 1300h, the afternoon being the province of paid to attend sports, Sunday being very religious and only free to attend sport allowed.

So come Saturday 1330h the rush was on to get whatever stock we though would interest punters loaded into the VW Combi, its centre seats removed, and then to the Exhibition centre to get everything on display ready for Sunday.

I don't remember how much it cost, but it was free for the general public to enter being a Sunday, so exhibitors beared the cost.

Up early on Sunday to collect helpers & staff and of we went, to make any changes we though of overnight.

Then what I can only describe as a totally exhausting day, dealing with the pressure of punters buying and asking questions, with nary a break.

End of day, and the reverse of Saturday afternoon, getting back to the shop and putting all the stuff back where it came from, then a thank-you to helpers, offering them a discount of course, and all we could then was think of was bed.

Exhibiting is a mammoth undertaking and the decision to do so not taken lightly, especially if the concern needs to close shop for that period.

With the Internet now, I would most definitely NOT now take an exhibition stand, as with a well designed website, I could attract a much much wider audience.

All I could do back in the '70s & '80s was to sent out 2000 newsletters three times a year, to people who had ordered goods, or visited the shop and entered their details in our Day Book.

How I wish both the colour laser printer and the Web had been available, and on occasion daydream about the possibilities it would have offered.

Geoff – A11 dualled all the way, so no longer darkest Norfolk.

[Michael CheckleyParticipant @michaelcheckley34085]

Did the show at Manchester run for 2 years? I thought it was only 1….I remember emailing the organisers the following year to see if the show was on as there was nothing advertised but I did not get a reply.

The 'first' year the Manchester show ran I remember it being very busy with regards to visitors so I would be surprised if footfall was an issue for this show. There was not many traders but for the first year this shouldn't be unexpected as people will be unsure as to how well attended the show will be. I`m guessing the organisers did not give this one long enough to establish itself before they pulled the plug.

How about sending a survey out to all the 'usual' traders that go to the main shows and seeing if there is any feedback that would reveal what changes needed to be made to help traders to attend.

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

Why don't we ask some of the traders here to tell us why they choose not to attend? It might prove constructive in making the event more attractive to vendors. Would a less expensive venue turn things around? I don't honestly think the venue makes much difference providing the basics are provided. The cost is important to punters and traders so are people prepared to pay more for one venue over another?

[mike TParticipant @miket56243]

We seem to be in a viscous circle. The traders are no longer attending because the visitor numbers are reducing and the visitor numbers are reducing because (among other reasons) the traders are staying away.

What then are the other reasons for the falling attendance? Could it be the very nature of model engineering? Model engineering is a different to most other hobbies, in as much as most models require years of dedicated effort to produce so a new one each year for the visitors to admire is unlikely. Also the model engineering hobby appeals more to the white haired generation because of the skills required, the equipment required and the years of dedication required. The younger generations have become accustomed to instant gratification thanks to the Internet et all, and the long hours in a cold workshop has little or no appeal to that generation.

If you look at the visitors to the MEX, you quickly notice they are mostly the white haired generation and over the years the numbers of this generation visiting the show are gradually reducing in number, without the influx of younger visitors, we enter the viscous circle described above.

In my view, if the MEX is too survive, (and I do hope it does for all of my remaining years) then it must broaden it's appeal to embrace a wider and younger audience. Perhaps the only way forward it for it once again to become A Model Exhibition rather than a finely focused Model Engineering Exhibition. I know that not everyone likes model aircraft and model race cars and plastic kits but they do appeal to a wider audience and a younger audience. So, isn't sharing the MEX with a wider audience a small price to pay to encourage a greater number of visitors and in turn to encourage back the much needed traders. I worry that if we continue the way we are, it will not be long before the M E Exhibition and all that the Model Engineer Competition stands for, will drop below critical mass and disappears forever.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

We do spend a lot of time talking to traders, but I'm sure forum members will understand that these are conversations with commercial sensitivities.

Neil

[magpieParticipant @magpie]

ArcEuro was one of the first to stop attending the shows, and Ketan has explained his reasons for no going many times on this forum. It would seem that the main reason is cost of stand space for which the venue owners / organisers take the blame. However no one has yet mentioned the cost of the RATES on venues which is also a major factor in most of the empty shops in the high street. Just a thought !!

Cheers Derek.

P.S. Also the VERY high cost of heating and lighting ?

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Ketan from Arceurotrade explained on this forum why he has withdrawn exhibitions and I expect thing are much the same for the other trade suppliers to our hobby. Just as the High Street and Pubs are dieing the suppliers to our hobby are changing. I bought my Myford on eBay and was more than happy with the price and condition, I bought a VMC mill from Warco after research on the Internet viewing at shows and finally visiting their showroom and discussing with Mr Warren my requirements in a less frantic situation than a show. With specialist forums available there is a vast pool of knowledge and experience to help make a good decision. I think supply of tools and materials is better now than it ever has been, without leaving my seat I can view good quality photos of my next purchase, order from my chosen supplier and it arrives in a few days. In the last ten years I have attended most of the model engineering shows in London the midland show most years and abou six Harrogate shows and one Bristol show. I think the model aspect of the shows has held up very well but there is no doubt traders are not there in the force they used to be. I went to Sandown on the Saturday this year and it felt quiet this year, definitely not the crush around stands and stalls. It is nice to see the models as it brings the drawings to life if you are building something that is being displayed.

I would think the Internet has had no small part to play in the changes to the hobby but the future generations of model engineers are going to grow up with the Internet and have no fear of forums or online purchasing. The Internet is perfect for male shopping as we know what we want before we shop so to not have to get in the car and drive to an extortionate car park and queue to buy what you want, a few clicks and its on its way.

Mike

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Hi Derek,

I suggest you revisit Ketan's posts, it's not just stand costs that caused Ketan to stop attending shows there are bigger costs involved.

Your point on venue costs is well made.

Neil

[Michael CheckleyParticipant @michaelcheckley34085]

I`m not sure the traders airing their views on here would be a good idea but 'one to one' discussions as Neil is doing will definitely help. Friends of mine who trade at model aero shows say that attending a show is as much about keeping their name known as it is selling as people come back after the shows and remember where they had seen items previously (usually high value goods). We know who the traders are that no longer visit the shows and we know how to contact them but those new to the hobby will not know that they exist.

This year I attended Harrogate and Midlands on the Friday and both shows felt packed so are there less people attending the shows? or are they just not parting with their cash….The Midlands show had a smaller space for the exhibits this year which I thought was worse than previous years so I hope they go back to the larger space for future shows.

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