Sandown photos and thoughts on the show

[Diane CarneyModerator @dianecarney30678]

There was only one announcement made (I made it). The problem we had was that the lectures were taking place adjacent to the food hall and all announcements interrupted the lectures so the window of opportunity to say anything was quite narrow. On reflection several things could have been improved, not least of which was ensuring the availablility of the Royal Box for lectures – but its non-availalbility was only advised on the Thursday morning. In future we will publish Neil's meetings times in the Show Guide.

Diane

[Diane CarneyModerator @dianecarney30678]

Posted by Chris Trice on 16/12/2014 10:53:14:

I agree with Martin. I love the show but it does seem to be getting thinner every year. I go for the trade stands but there were even fewer this year.

He who has never purchased goods on the Internet may legitimately cast the first stone…

Not wishing to sound cynical – and certainly not to criticise Chris – but anyone who has purchased goods on the Internet cannot really complain that there are no traders at a show. We can't have it both ways…. Is it not simple market forces? Traders can no longer afford to attend shows. It's the way it's going… for now.
I predict that the trend will reverse in time – but not for a while yet.

Diane

[EmgeeParticipant @emgee]

Hi Diane

I appreciate what you are saying about internet purchases but when speaking to a trader at the Midlands exhibition this year they indicated it would most likely be the last time they attended a show, it was fast becoming a loss making exercise because of the high price being charged for exhibiting stand space. Perhaps the apparent lack of support for Sandown is for the same reason.

I believe the firm in question had been exhibiting at the Midland Ex since the days when it was held in the Uni grounds, and any readers who remember that are pretty old !!!!!!

Emgee

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I waited until 2:45, but no-one turned up

I agree with Diane, the cost of attending shows combined with internet purchasing is a double whammy for show stands. People tend to come and look at larger tooling, then go away and hunt for a deal on line, rather than hoping for a good show price.

On the other hand, many commented that this was an exceptional year for the quality of the models.

The 'makers' added a lot to the show and their area was very busy throughout. I hope they will be more 'integrated' in the future, for example one exhibitor offered a talk on 3-D printing and was interested in offering a service where you email an STI file in advance, then come and see your object printed at the show.

Neil

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

I did go on the Friday,the selection of models was excellent and the enthusiasm on club stands was really great.

where you email an STI file in advance, then come and see your object printed at the show.

What an unfortunate file name!

Edited By V8Eng on 16/12/2014 13:15:23

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Internet shopping has certainly had an effect but can't be the only reason. Maybe MTM need to take a look at the Ally Pally show as they currently have over 50 traders listed for January which is at least 3 times as many as Sandown, so they must be doing something to attract the traders that MTM are not. Also that list is not made up of poundland, miricle drill bit, etc type traders there are a lot of ME specific ones there.

With a limited number of eager punters in the South East it can't make econonic sense for the traders to do both Sandown and Ally Pally with them being so close together both geologically and time of year so you can't blame them for chosing just one show but it would be interesting to know why so many more prefer the other?

Does not bode well if MHS could not even muster a stand, I would have thought they would have got it for free anyway or is it that a lot of the sales are now handled by third parties and not direct.

J

J

[Anonymous]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 16/12/2014 12:40:38:

The 'makers' added a lot to the show and their area was very busy throughout. I hope they will be more 'integrated' in the future, for example one exhibitor offered a talk on 3-D printing and was interested in offering a service where you email an STI file in advance, then come and see your object printed at the show.

Neil

That'd be interesting to see, if it isn't censored; I normally use STL files for 3D printing.

Andrew

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

would be interesting to know why so many more prefer the other?

I go to the Sandown show once in a blue moon and this year was to be one of the blue moons but the broken foot put pay to that, my main reason for not going often is that my job means I regularly use the M25 and M1 for work so doing it for leisure is to be avoided, I regularly visit the Ally Pally because I get to use a train from Sandy Bedfordshire to Ally Pally return for £6.00 ea group of four return and a Bus ride, I think there is more to see and I get to top up my stock with goodies from all the stalls there.

I emailed the venue this weekend and they are able to accomodate my wifes scooter and also parking for my mates car and trailer, all I have to do is convince both, one to take me the other to loan her scooter and let me go

Martin P

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Personally I wasn't really talking about trade stands but visitor numbers. The more visitors a show gets the cheaper the pitches for trade stand can be so potentially more traders. The show organisers function is to attract us the visitors and a large crowd with money in their pockets will attract the traders. Personally I feel each show, and that applies to all of them needs a showpiece item if it is to continue to attract a crowd. The shows I remember most is when something out of the ordinary happened. For example the Historic models for the Centenary show, the outside running track from Germany, the Tarmac Waggon for the first time, the 1/3 scale Bentley running to name but a few. I feel that all the material is there but it could be showcased and presented better to give a centre-piece for each show and a particular reason to go. In recent time much has been done to the magazines and the website with new contributors and a more hands on editorial which to my mind has improved things no end so well done Niel and Diane (and others). Something of the like needs to be done with the show otherwise its just going to drift.

Model Engineers are on the whole a pretty loyal bunch and we do tend to go to things we have always gone to so to see numbers dwindling this much to my mind shows that something is fairly deep rooted.

I would welcome further discussion and other peoples thoughts.

regards Martin

[Norman BarberParticipant @normanbarber28134]

I refer to Neil Wyatt's post dated 13/12/14 concerning the colour of my "Terrier". I can reassure Neil that the entry was not marked down because it was a loan entry! It was awarded a bronze medal and the Charles Kennion Memorial Trophy at the 2010 MEX, so the judges must have thought the colour was about right then!

Norman

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Hi Norman,

Yes I noticed it was loan on Sunday. I found the light very difficult, I think it was the very dark overcast skies.

That said, even real ones seem to have very different interpretations of the colour, I can understand why black locos are so popular…

Neil

 

 

P.s. congratulations on the award for the Lion!

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 16/12/2014 16:54:05

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 16/12/2014 12:40:38:

I waited until 2:45, but no-one turned up

Gosh Neil, I flew over from Canada to attend (not really, but it was one of my top couple of "things to do" at the show), and I was in the lecture hall, and I found out all about the history of motor bikes, but would rather have talked to you.

I did find it hard to actually navigate the show, and figure out what was where/ when. I can understand the changes, but when I saw "lecture hall" beside the cafeteria (where the show guide said the Gauge 1 was to be) I just assumed that all lectures/meetings would be there.

Oh well, once every 20 years I get to attend; hope you are still at it in 2034.

John.

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

as a bit of an aside re Stroudley's 'Improved engine green' as per norman barber's terrier 'Poplar' and the other terrier 'Bramley' on show at sandown,

the original paint pigments were supplied to the LBSCR by Robert Ingham Clark & Co,

being described a 'Golden yellow ochre' or 'mustard' or 'dark yellow ochre tinted with orange chrome with 2% of sage green'.

Dr J.Bradbury Winter's famous model of 'Como' in the Brighton Museum is regarded as the most accurate colour as painted by the foreman painter at Brighton works when the original paint was still in use. as a result the painting of Boxhill for preservation in 1947, and Gladstone in 1927 were heavily criticised as being the 'wrong' colour', and Clapham didnt get Boxhill the right colour in 1961 when repainted. Stepney on the Bluebell has been repainted twice using paint supplied by precision/pheonix paints, and Boxhill and Gladstone at the NRM are both now painted in the same colour as used on Dr J. Bradbury Winter's 'Como'.

norman's otherwise excellent model has the wrong shape cab roof and the colour of the inside of the cab is wrong.

cheers,

julian

Edited By julian atkins on 16/12/2014 22:30:52

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by julian atkins on 16/12/2014 22:29:47:

Norman's otherwise excellent model has the wrong shape cab roof and the colour of the inside of the cab is wrong.

cheers,

Julian

.

But has it got the right number of rivets in the inside furkle valve block ?

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

I visited Chronos today and they are not going to be at Ally Pally either.

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Bazyle,

From memory they haven't been the last couple of years, I think its the usual sales against rent.

Martin P

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Actually I was thinking today with a number of our suppliers now offering free delivery it does not take quite so many sales to break even. Just think of how many sales they make at a show, lets say 100 sales easily, say average postage £3 so thats £300 a day or £900 for the show. Add in how long it would take a member of staff to pick package all these back at the warehouse and you have taken care of one staff members wages. So could easily cover the cost of a stand if it were £1000.

Any thoughts?

J

[Jerry WrayParticipant @jerrywray14030]

Just a comment on Julian Atkins post referring to Robert Ingham-Clark & Co. I worked for RIC, as it was known, for around 12 years. It was known within as 'Rubbish In Cans' but we were very proud of our reputation even in the 50s- 70s and anyone referring to us by that monika would get short shrift. Being within Docklands we had some guys who were very handy in a 'sort-out'.

I still have a company tie. I have no recollection of the company making pigments, they were a paintmaker, some of the Ingham-Clark family were still involved even in the sixties.

It's no wonder that the colours used in 1947 were poor matches for the originals. The factory was in Silvertown E16 and was rebuilt and known as 'Minerva Works' as it emerged from the flames. While the factory was out of use the production was vested in another paintmaker, also in London.

Happy memories

Jerry

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

Ally Pally is VERY expensive to rent a stand.

[Chris TriceParticipant @christrice43267]

People forget that staff have to include hotel bills if they attend a multiday event. I'm betting that the amount of effort that goes in isn't justified by the reward. I know a lot of second hand plastic kit dealers who have abandoned the big kit shows because they sell more online.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Also remember transport costs. Warco and Chester bot run 44 tonne artics, believe me when I say these don't come cheap.

The bit a lot of people miss is say you do Alley Pally you have a catchment area of London and the South East because peole always make the excuse it's too far to travel.

So whilst you are at a show you are selling to your captive audience but the rest of the country is on hold.

And no matter how many shows you do at various venues you will always loose overseas orders. None of the traders are big enough to handle a show and keep the depot open as well. This also doesn't take into account just what you take as well so you will always get people wanting something you left behind as it didn't sell on previous shows.

And we won't mention the tyre kickers who just want to spend hours over a 10p order when you could be serving someone who is far more serious.

Another take on this probably no one else has though of and this from a time when I was just a member of Joe Public. I don't do shows for models, models don't interest me. I used to do shows to buy parts and materials and tools.

Now said tool man has paid very, very serious coin to stand this show and I roll up and some Herbert on the door wants to take £8 off me to enter.

WTF ?? I don't have to pay £8 to enter Warco's place, or Chester, or Chronos to spend my money why should I have to do it at a show especially when some of these traders are paying well into 5 figures [ no not a typo ]

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

John, do Warco and chester not run these artics anyway and use them for more than just a couple of shows a year, so the only additional costs are mainly fuel so they are better off if they had to hire in transport just for a show.

As for paying an entry fee I have always looked at it like this if the fee covers what I would have had to pay for delivery on one purchase then I haved broken even, No I bought from at least 9 different traders at last weeks show so that would also have covered my petrol and more. Only one of those offers free delivery and a couple of the others have a flat rate which would is about the same as an entry fee.

Agree with the number of possible customers in one area which is what I said in an earlier reply

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Ally Pally might well be very expensive to rent a stand Chris but there are over 50 trade stands listed for the January show. What that show does get is VISITORS. If you don't have a crowd you wont get traders. Therefore the primary task in putting on a show is visitor attraction. If Sandown Park is to continue into the future and I do hope it will there needs to be greater visitor numbers. The economics of traders are not really anything anyone can do about except lower stand prices and ensure there are more customers. Sandown Park is shrinking not growing.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

> Ally Pally is VERY expensive to rent a stand.

It's INCREDIBLY expensive to rent an exhibition venue, and the trade stands and door also have to pay for the club and competition space.

Other than that I'm not going to comment on costs, for obvious reasons, but suffice to say running an exhibition or attending one is not primarily about making lots of money, its about profile, and in the case of the model Engineer Exhibition, supporting and promoting the hobby, particularly through the competitions.

Neil

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

I totally agree Neil. But do you think that enough was done to showcase and promote the hobby in the light of falling attendance? I really don't think things are critical yet but they will be on current trends.

regards Martin

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