Safety

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Firstly let me apologise to the other fori members for likening two to Laurel and Hardy, it was an insult to them (L & H) and at least THEY were funny.

 

  OK, how magnanimous of you Mr Griffith-Jones to draw a line under something YOU deem to be missinformed and a personal opinion. Thankfully free speech and opinions are not restricted or the patent of your goodself.

 

  As we’ve all had your carreer and qualifications stuffed down our throats, I’m surprised you have the time to waste on us lesser mortals, especially the F***wits you obviously abhor. One of the ways to communicate the safe operation of, as I mentioned in another post, this HOBBY, is for those without a lifetime in the trade to ask what some may class as stupid questions, so when you try to quote the periodic table to show the distance or not of various elements to each other perhaps you would like to consider Alumin. and Iron?

 

  Now ANY F/wit knows not to grind Aluminium? or perhaps NOT if you have just entered the hobby. Same with Iron.  Perhaps you could enlighten the assembled throng on how Railway lines were welded or even cut?? and Steel doesn’t burn? A dry cell and wire wool disprove THAT misnomer. I can only repeat, tell those that have had Titanium fires that it doesn’t burn, and as far as its use in muddle ingineering wasn’t a series of pikkies at the top of the page showing clock wheel cutting using Ti.? More and more “Exotic” materials are being used daily by amateurs whose mates have given them a piece of metal cos they use it. IIRC some of the lowly Beetle castings were Magnesium?

 

  One or two safety prickorshuns save a lot of tears before bedtime so either think about some wise words or pre warnings to help the lesser knowledgible or in THIS topic, you don’t have to reply.

 

  As far as the minimal use of Ti. in the UK aerospace industry, Lockheed pioneered many of the usages and manufacturing techniques in the production of the SR71 very many years ago. Seem to remember the Russians made a submarine out of it too.

 

   Regards  Ian.

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi There

I doubt model engineers will ever got titanium hot enough to burn.

 

I believe that if you don’t know the answer, no question is stupid.

Can we cut the arguing out a bit and get on with constructive posting.

regards david

 

Edited By David Clark 1 on 19/11/2009 19:28:01

[Martin CottrellParticipant @martincottrell21329]

Hi all,

 

I have to say that I have found this particular post both informative and highly entertaining! A heady mix of science, wit and sarcasm so eloquently delivered through the rich and colourful verbage that is our English language!

 

As an aspiring “model maker”  and someone with more than a passing interest in all things mechanical (I dare not label myself “Engineer” in present company!), I have gleened from this post that certain precautions should be taken when machining titanium but that I am not likely to cause too many problems in a “home workshop” environment. More pertinant to me were the comments regarding grinding of steel & aluminium as both materials are used liberally in my workshop.

 

Keep the helpful tips coming chaps and please don’t stop the heated debates (arguements?!) on my behalf!

 

Regards, Martin.

[chris stephensParticipant @chrisstephens63393]

Hi Martin,

Don’t worry you will be an old hand soon and as long as you keep an open mind, listen to reason, not dogma, try out things you feel confident with and be careful with things that you don’t, you will have a lot of pleasure and satisfaction from your hobby. Remember the more you know, the more you can do!

It is not Aluminium and Steel that is the problem, it is fine Aluminium dust,  and rust, again dust. The two when mixed and then lit produce copious amounts of heat and molten iron,( not steel). Its use is/was for welding things like railway lines as someone else tried to say. The moral is, don’t grind or belt sand the two without cleaning up the first one first. You do clean up after yourself of course, don’t you. Just a another tip, if you use a vacuum cleaner to suck up the dust, don’t. You are just mixing them in a different place,  where there are electrical sparks.

I am glad you were entertained by the “differences of opinion” but it served no purpose at all, if you didn’t learn something useful from it. Something like “I have heard two sides, I shall now go out and do some research for myself”. Here I could go into the different attitudes fostered by the education systems, trade v academia, that prevailed for a long time in this country, but this is an engineering site not a philosophical/history one. 

chriStephens (Stan)

[Robert MullanParticipant @robertmullan69263]

Why do model engineers have to be so rude? And the babyish use of words like “muddle ingineering” and “prikorshuns” is not actually very clever or funny.

 

In my other hobby (building model ships) people are gentle, supportive and polite. I have been speculating about the reason and have concluded that one possibility is that model shipbuilding is  international and the forums are frequented by many people (particularly North Americans) who seem to understand the whole fellow-traveller ethos. Model engineering, at least on this website, is parochial and populated by old men.

 

No doubt some of you will want to jump to the defence of the beleaguered old English gentleman. If you do, please can you try to be well-mannered and informative, a strategy that Stan and Ollie seem to have managed reasonably well in the circumstances…. 

 

By the way, I think a forum for health and safety is an evidently good idea but if anyone uses the word ‘elfins’ in the mistaken belief that they sound friendlier… well!

 

Buster Keaton 

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Sorry Chris, I’ve separated it to make the point I was trying to make more understandable, :-   “and Steel doesn’t burn? A dry cell and wire wool disprove THAT misnomer.”

 

  Just to give the correct name for the Alum. / Iron “mixture Martin it’s called Thermite, and NO referance to Steel should be inferred on that sentance.

 

  Oh dear, Robert/Buster, Firstly, as a “Boatie” I’m sure that you have been classed as a “Boy with a Toy boat”???  ALL strands of the modelling hobbies wether boats planes or trains attract dispariging remarks by the uniformed observers, so in bringing our hobbies descriptions down to terms THEY can comprehend, it saves people like yourself ( NO insult intended) getting uptight due to THEIR ignorance of whats involved in generating/making a miniature replica for them to tut.

 

   You obviously haven’t come across some of the bloated beachmaster /pondside Admirals in your chosen other interest???

 

   Regards  Ian.

[Peter GainParticipant @petergain89847]

To The Moderator,

Is it possible to have two separate forum theads? One for sensible augument, debate, and information exchange and a separate one for the sarcastic, supposedly funny, and downright childish out pourings.

Peter Gain.

[Robert MullanParticipant @robertmullan69263]

[quote]Oh dear, Robert/Buster, Firstly, as a “Boatie” I’m sure that you have been classed as a “Boy with a Toy boat”???  ALL strands of the modelling hobbies wether boats planes or trains attract dispariging remarks by the uniformed observers, so in bringing our hobbies descriptions down to terms THEY can comprehend, it saves people like yourself ( NO insult intended) getting uptight due to THEIR ignorance of whats involved in generating/making a miniature replica for them to tut.

 

   You obviously haven’t come across some of the bloated beachmaster /pondside Admirals in your chosen other interest??[/quote]

 

Actually the only person who is insulting about ‘toy boats’ is my wife, who is a special case and hasn’t done it for a long time. I only build static models, which by and large are nice objects in themselves when finished. This also explains why I never run into the pondside admirals (no pond…).

 

i have to say I find the Model Engineer website by and large very interesting and helpful, apart from the occasional insults and facetiousness, which sometimes make me feel uncomfortable.* Can I propose the Lady Chatterley Test? When you post a comment ask yourself ‘would you like your wife or servant to read it?’ If the answer is ‘No because they would laugh at me or think I was stupid’ then perhaps the comment ought to be changed.

 

I really don’t mind differences of opinion forcefully expressed – these exchanges are often illuminating. They are better when they are written with the thought in the back of one’s mind that they will be read by people other than the contributors, in particular beginners like me!

 

*Because of the Test.

[chris stephensParticipant @chrisstephens63393]

Hi Robert,

What a splendid idea, a forum/post for Health and Safety, there is nothing wrong with Health and Safety, despite some peoples opinions to the contrary. The excesses attributed to H&S are more likely to be the result of over zealous “Risk Assessments”.

 So, if we can keep a sense of proportion and stick to the subject/facts, barring a few humourous anecdotes, I for one, am all for it.

Re your third paragraph, may I say “thank you kind Sir.” I am sure I speak for M G-J , too.

chriStephens

PS You might not believe the following but, I will come to Circlip’s defence, well partly, the reference to “Muddle” engineering does have a precedent in Model Engineering mag. There was for many years a cartoon strip depicting the exploits of a slightly inept , IIRC , called Chuck, the Muddle Engineer. The “Ingineering” I shall not comment on.

c.

Edited By chris stephens on 20/11/2009 12:57:49

[ChrisHParticipant @chrish]

By and large I have enjoyed reading through the posts in this threads even though some seem to be a bit on the acrimonious side – saucers of milk to all concerned I’d say – and found the actual safety information re working various materials interesting and informative.

 

However the effect today when I had to purchase a couple of 2mm dia drills from my local hardware store and on the way home found they were HSS Titanium was to immediately think ‘ gosh, I do hope it doesn’t burst into flames when I use them, tricky stuff this titanium, read all about it’.

 

And before anyone jumps in to a reply – ONLY JOKING !

 

ChrisH 

Edited By ChrisH on 20/11/2009 14:27:00

[mgjParticipant @mgj]

MGJ is not getting drawn further on this one.

 

I have said all that I need or wish to say, and I think it would be much wiser if hatchets were buried.

 

Edited By meyrick griffith-jones on 20/11/2009 17:51:48

Edited By meyrick griffith-jones on 20/11/2009 18:14:07

[RichmondParticipant @richmond]

Gents,

 

I have tried to keep out of this thread so far ( free speech and all ).

 

Everyone has differing opinions….. but I think some comments might be becoming a little personal.

 

Please refrain, and restrain yourselves

 

Heath and Safety is an emotive subject, but I am sure it can be discussed in a civilised manner.

 

I wont lock this thread yet…..but I wont have any hestitation should the comments not be reined in somewhat.

 

Rgds

 

[Ian AbbottParticipant @ianabbott31222]

A couple of things.

 

First, safety.  Of the models. 

In my early teens I built a couple of ship models, rigging, sails, all meticulously rendered.

My mother “dusted” them and then put “them away” in a big “toy box” along with balsa and paper aeroplanes.  Then put books on top.  My wife is also a “stacker”……

I’m making sure that she can’t see the screen as I write this. 

 

And, more seriously.

Something which hasn’t been around for many years is carbon-tetrachloride.  I don’t think that you can buy it any more, but poking around the old barn the other day which the owners are converting to a cottage, reminded me that there may still be some of those old Pyrene pump fire extinguishers which had carbon-tet in them.

This stuff is deadly.  It puts fires out by depriving them of oxygen.  It can also put people out the same way.

When I was an apprentice, carbon-tet was used by electricians for washing motors out.  No ventilation of course, bare hands.  This stuff is do deadly that we could shoot flies out of the air with a squirt oil can.  It killed them in flight!

Anyway, like lacquer thinners, it destroys brain cells and the nervous system from inhalation and through the skin.

Lesson, if you find an old fire extinguisher at the back of an old workshop, get someone from the fire station to take care of the contents.

 

Ian 

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Aw Ian,don’t be a spoilsport, the heavy solvents and cleaning fluids you mention were commonplace when we were kids and most of us have managed to survive  with one or two brain cells intact.

 

  We can’t uninvent things, (Sadly in the case of mobile phones) but given a common sense approach to their use and KNOWING the hazards involved, why treat them any differently. Water is a dangerous liquid, you can drown in it and if you pour it into a strong acid??????

 

  I would be the last to scoff at Safety issues, why would I have started this thread, the only problem is the younger generations ignorance to what WE learned in normal day to day usage. I only needed to be informed that smoking over a trike tank (Trichlorethylene, later changed to “Safer” trichlorethane????) formed Phosgene in the smokers lungs. I already KNEW what Phosgene was.

 

  Banning or shying away doesn’t solve the problem, but education allows us to use things safely.

 

   Remember, only some of a “Certain” age know how to fix a plug onto a cable correctly?? Thanks Lyyne Fawls-Wood, thanks a bundle.

 

  Regards Ian.

Edited By Circlip on 20/11/2009 20:29:10

[mgjParticipant @mgj]

Yes- and heated carbon tet turns into something very very nasty. I have been told variously both mustard gas and phosgene, (hopefully at different times!).  I’m not enough of a chemist to know the truth – but nasty it is.

 

However it was used as a dry cleaning agent, and a number of workers had lungs badly, and permanently  affected when garments were ironed too soon. 

——–

On a more mundane sort of level, I was always taught never to wear gloves or loose clothes while tuning or milling, for fear of entrapment. And always to wear gloves when cleaning down milling machines, because of the needle type swarf..

And although its fun, on a drill press, with sharp bits you can get wonderful long curls of swarf – but if they catch and spin with the bit, you can get a very nasty cut. So its not good to keep ploughing on, but keep stopping and break up the swarf. 

With apologies to grannies.

[chris stephensParticipant @chrisstephens63393]

Hi Guys,

Not that I wish to be seen to be starting up our double act again………

When I am drilling holes on the lathe, I always stop the in feed every few moments, so that the long curls are not too long, I take satisfaction in getting nice even but short lengths of swarf, makes a boring job (yes, pun fully intended) a challenge. Makes clearing up easier, too.

Regarding Safety.

If I might enter into the wonderful world of semantics, always a dangerous place to go, some of today’s warnings are a little bit OTT. Take the one about smoking for example, the warnings on packets say categorically that cigarettes WILL kill, whereas it should say MAY harm or in extremis kill. There are many people who have smoked for years without ill effect. I myself was a forty a day man for about twenty years, stopped about twenty years ago, got bored with it. My lungs have been X-rayed many times since and there is no noticeable damage. I know many people HAVE been harmed by and in fact died from smoking related illness, ( in a past life I trained in a Respiratory Physiologist lab at Guy’s and at Harefield hospitals) and I would never suggest that anyone should start. My point is that the warnings should be truthful, not emotive. 

chriStephens

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Twenty years ago,not long after starting to do a bit of lathe work,I started building hot air engines.The hot end I desided should be stainless steel, I went out and bought some,a lump of 316 and started into it,drill it out then bore it to size,the swafe came of in great streamers with an edge like a razor,I managed to avoid getting caught in it and didn’t get too many cuts(it cut the gloves I was wearing as I cut the stuff up),I now use a chip breaker when cutting non free cutting metals.IAN S C

[Ian AbbottParticipant @ianabbott31222]

I have to admit to being a little shy of solvents.  About twenty years ago, a university (place of higher learning and integrity) cheaped out of venting their artists studios.  Now, I can’t feel my hands and feet, with varying levels of sensory and motor control in between them and my head.  This was supposed to be a change of career from the engineering stuff and I was working in theatre design.

I don’t work in theatre now, I don’t walk with a stick any more, and I can stay upright on the Enfield, but drawing is hit and miss and anything other than a flat road means frequent stops to let the legs catch up.

Think multiple sclerosis without the inconvenience of having a disease.  I take a cocktail of drugs every day (and for the rest of my life) to control the pain and other symptoms.

 

I like to think that others may learn to avoid crap like this by being very, very, careful.

 

Removing curmudgeon hat. 

 

Ian 

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Will it be all right to go into the workshop today.

 

The reason I ask is that I have just done a risk assessment and I have 440v electrics up to 200 amp per phase, some multi coloured machine with whirly peripheries like chucks and cutters that can’t be fully guarded, a drum of original trichloroethane, various drums of transformer oil, loads of neat cutting oil, some titanium, 17 2 BA screws, 20 foot of 3″ diameter magnesium stored opposite the welding bench for safety, God knows how many cubic feet of aluminium, 3 MIg welders, three stick welders, 2 Tig welders and a plasma cutter.

 

Do you think the BA screws are a safety risk ?

 

John S.   

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi John

Screws are not safe.

You might swallow one.

regards David

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Only if you can climb over the other bits to get to them.

[chris stephensParticipant @chrisstephens63393]

Hi Ian,

I am truly sorry to hear of your health problems and you do have my sympathy but if I may play Devils Advocate for a moment, do the others from your class suffer in the same way? It is a fact that there are some people who are more susceptible to certain stimuli than others, witness the child who is allergic to sunlight. Hindsight is not a very good teacher, but who knew.

Hi John and David,

Screws are not safe, think of Herpes, Aids or pregnancy. Someone had to say it and I drew the short straw.

chriStephens

[BobParticipant @bob17059]

(Second attempt to post this, I was sure I was logged in, hit the post button only to be informed that you must be logged in to use this feature so here is a much shortened version)

 

One or two points of fact (I hope)…

 

Almost any metal will burn if it is sufficiently finely divided and mixed with air or oxygen. The classic chemistry demonstration was pyrophoric lead made by heating lead tartrate and excluding oxygen as the lead dust cooled. This powder would spontaneously burst into flames when poured from the phial ito the air. The white sparks seen when F1 cars bottom out are the result of titanium being abraded away from the underside skid plates. (probably see lots more of those next season with the banning of refuelling during the races)

 

So I am not surprised to learn that titanium swarf can catch fire. I know of an incident in a local engineering firm (now, alas, closed) where an expensive CNC lathe was destroyed by a magnesium fire.

 

I suspect there are more issues than inflamability surrounding machining titanium as I have tried drilling holes in the stuff and find it work hardens like some stainless steels.

 

Minor point, but when magnesium burns in air the main product is white magnesiun oxide ( and smaller amounts of magnesium nitride and possibly trace amounts of carbon) I would not worry too much about the basic nature of this oxide as it is the active ingredient in many antacids used to treat indigestion (Milk of Magnesia)

 

Carbon Tetrachloride is very nasty and should be avoided at all costs. It is thermally decomposed to carbonyl chloride, also known as phosgene. The mustard gas reference is an understandable misconception as both were used in chemical warfare. The long term dangers of carbon tetrechlorde include cancers so find another safer solvent.

 

In general, treat all organic solvents with respect. They are miscible with the fatty membranes that surround cells, especially nerve cells in your body so it should be no surprise that they are bad news. I remember seeing glue sniffers at Birmingham New Street station in the late 1970s. An image that should serve as a reminder of the dangers of solvents.

 

A couple of things that have not be mentioned yet in this thread are cadmium (found in Easyflo No.2 silver solder) and the dangers of welding galvanised steel.

 

I remember a lot of information in the Model Engineer about the nature of the dangers from cadmium in silver solders. As I recall there was a fatality where the engineer had been engaged in silver soldering, but I don’t know if it was the cadmium to blame. I think the advice at the time was to avoid cadmium bearing alloys, but if you needed to use cadmium bearing alloys to not use oxy-acetylene (too hot for silver brazing anyway) and to work in a well-ventilated space. I think Tubal Cain published some estimates of the air-bourne levels of cadmium that seemed very low as long as common sence precautions were followed, but I wonder how they stand up against modern advice. Cadmium is a nasty cumulative poison and suspected carcinogen.

 

Welding galvanised steel is another bad idea.

 

Bob

[chris stephensParticipant @chrisstephens63393]

Hi Bob, 

You mention common sense, if only it were as common as the name suggests.

I find it a shame that there are not Degree level courses at Uni in “common sense”, much more useful to the world than say “Media Studies”. Such a Degree would be able to negate a lot of safety warnings and some machine guards. 

I know a lot of warnings have to be for a worst case scenario, i.e. say using Cadmium silver solder all-day, every day in industry. Not the occasional use for five minutes, twice a year, in our home workshops, where exposure levels are minimal. Should we be denied the use of useful products because of possible abuse in commercial situations? I only pose the question for you guys to ponder.

chriStephens

PS  Re your lack of posting ability. When you are asked to login, despite clearly being logged on, go to top of the page and login, then hit the left hand pointing arrow on your browser, do this till you get back to the page you were writing on, your words of wisdom should be there still, (might take a second or two for them to come back) you can then hit “add posting” and all should be well. Happens all the time to me, at first I thought it was censorship, now I know it is a flaw in the system, designed to make people write speedy replies!

[mgjParticipant @mgj]

Bob – if you want to see uranium burn- take a look at some of those shots of  Iraqi  tanksbeing brewed up.

 

Those white feathery plumes are very typical of the pyrophoric effcts of DU, and the U turning into an oxide under extremes of temp and pressure.

The bright white sparks from Ti are a positive identifier. I don’t think its dodgy to grind it particularly – its just that the sparks are very white, in the same way that tool steel sparks are a fairly dull red.

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