Safety

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

When I mentioned the grinder, it does have the standard metal end covers over most of the wheels. What I meant was those little perspex? bolt on screens above the exposed part of the wheels, presumably to deflect sparks. They are the ones missing and due to the apparent age of the grinder, probably not a requirement to retro – fit. Committee is anxious to be seen to make every effort at safety just in case….

Edited By DMB on 19/08/2023 21:10:44

[vintage engineerParticipant @vintageengineer]

When I was an apprentice I was told never to put your finger anywhere you wouldn't put your male member. After 45 years in engineering I still have all my fingers!

[BOB BLACKSHAW 1Participant @bobblackshaw1]

I worked in Germany for a few years from 1980,Krupp Atlas, at that time you were aloud to drink alcohol and most German's had a fridge next to the bench that was shared by a group. Being English and working nights these devices got robbed and this resulted in them being chained up , we could by Beck's beer and bring that in along as the security had a few bottles. Many a time I had seen Jock come in drunk for his shift and be sent home by the foreman. One night a chap was using the guillotine cutting straps, his both fingers on both hands went under the gripping bar and his finger ends got flattered like a four leaf clover. We were all skilled sheet metal workers but the jobs were broken down in stages ,you only worked on one stage at a time so the job was semi skilled, that's why the German's were more efficient and productive.

Bob

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

I have someone instantly dismissed for turning up drunk.

The printing-machine manufacturer I worked for had a CNC lathe and milling machine, both programmed and set by their operators. It bought a second, similar mill, and engaged a young woman to operate it. I don't know her previous experience, nor if she was also its setter or simply operator but I do remember she was rather conceited and not very pleasant, though friendly with the more bloke-ish blokes among the twenty or so machinists. (My role was cutting and supplying the raw materials blanks.)

One morning, less than half an hour past starting time, I saw her and the workshop supervisor, both grim-faced, head through the door to the rest of the building. Some while later, Jim, the foreman, returned alone.

We learnt later she had turned up still under the influence from a party the night before.

I don't know how she travelled to work but if by own car, I wonder if she had risked driving in that day….

.

Regarding German manufacturers being efficient by making the work un-skilled, I have heard from source of a different side to that. I knew a sales rep for a large, German agricultural and veterinary products manufacturer. He told me the company preferred British staff for such roles for naturally having a lot more initiative and willingness to help solve the unusual problems and enquiries that sometimes occur in their customers' industries. The Germans, their own employers found, were fine with straightforward sales but too hide-bound by "procedures" and petty office politics to be good at anything straying from the rigid script.

He didn't say how any French or Italian sales staff there, scored on that aspect, influenced by their own national cultures.

.

Incidentally the hacksawing machine I used in that printing-machine works was German made. It had two excellent features. One was the huge lateral bearing surfaces guiding the bow. The other, which I never knew it to need come into action, was that if the electrics or the hydraulic down-feed failed, massive tension-springs would return the bow to its rest position well above the work. Other than that…. high-quality construction, but oh, what a rubbish vice design!

(To be fair to it, that was in the 1980s. Its manufacturer's own web-site shows it now makes only two models, but fitted with proper flat-jaw vices in place of the awful pinch-rollers that had let ours down so badly.)

[James AlfordParticipant @jamesalford67616]

Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 20/08/2023 08:52:11:

Regarding German manufacturers being efficient by making the work un-skilled, I have heard from source of a different side to that. I knew a sales rep for a large, German agricultural and veterinary products manufacturer. He told me the company preferred British staff for such roles for naturally having a lot more initiative and willingness to help solve the unusual problems and enquiries that sometimes occur in their customers' industries. The Germans, their own employers found, were fine with straightforward sales but too hide-bound by "procedures" and petty office politics to be good at anything straying from the rigid script.

He didn't say how any French or Italian sales staff there, scored on that aspect, influenced by their own national cultures.)

A few years ago, I had to do a comparative study of the British, German and Italian education systems, with a particular emphasis on employability. One thing that sticks in my memory is that, irrespective of the relative academic achievements, feedback from employers of the respective countries was that the British system produced workers with much higher levels of problem solving skills and independent thinking than either of the other two, a skill that employers valued..

In a different job, one of my clients was a Japanese professor of industrial psychology who used to consult with and lecture to major employers. His view was the same: that the British system encourages much more independent thought and questioning than the Japanese system, something of which he was greatly in favour.

James

[James AlfordParticipant @jamesalford67616]

Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 20/08/2023 08:52:11:

Regarding German manufacturers being efficient by making the work un-skilled, I have heard from source of a different side to that. I knew a sales rep for a large, German agricultural and veterinary products manufacturer. He told me the company preferred British staff for such roles for naturally having a lot more initiative and willingness to help solve the unusual problems and enquiries that sometimes occur in their customers' industries. The Germans, their own employers found, were fine with straightforward sales but too hide-bound by "procedures" and petty office politics to be good at anything straying from the rigid script.

He didn't say how any French or Italian sales staff there, scored on that aspect, influenced by their own national cultures.)

A few years ago, I had to do a comparative study of the British, German and Italian education systems, with a particular emphasis on employability. One thing that sticks in my memory is that, irrespective of the relative academic achievements, feedback from employers of the respective countries was that the British system produced workers with much higher levels of problem solving skills and independent thinking than either of the other two, a skill that employers valued.

In a different job, one of my clients was a Japanese professor of industrial psychology who used to consult with and lecture to major employers. His view was the same: that the British system encourages much more independent thought and questioning than the Japanese system, something of which he was greatly in favour.

James

Edited By James Alford on 20/08/2023 09:17:57

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by James Alford on 20/08/2023 09:17:22:

Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 20/08/2023 08:52:11:

Regarding German manufacturers being efficient by making the work un-skilled, I have heard from source of a different side to that. I knew a sales rep for a large, German agricultural and veterinary products manufacturer. He told me the company preferred British staff for such roles for naturally having a lot more initiative and willingness to help solve the unusual problems and enquiries that sometimes occur in their customers' industries. The Germans, their own employers found, were fine with straightforward sales but too hide-bound by "procedures" and petty office politics to be good at anything straying from the rigid script.

He didn't say how any French or Italian sales staff there, scored on that aspect, influenced by their own national cultures.)

A few years ago, I had to do a comparative study of the British, German and Italian education systems, with a particular emphasis on employability. One thing that sticks in my memory is that, irrespective of the relative academic achievements, feedback from employers of the respective countries was that the British system produced workers with much higher levels of problem solving skills and independent thinking than either of the other two, a skill that employers valued.

In a different job, one of my clients was a Japanese professor of industrial psychology who used to consult with and lecture to major employers. His view was the same: that the British system encourages much more independent thought and questioning than the Japanese system, something of which he was greatly in favour.

James

…

Maybe there's some sort of comfort in that, but the all important financial numbers tell a different story!

Measured in Gross Domestic Product per working hour, British productivity has long been lower than that of similar economies. In the 2019 league table, Britain is 20th, with lower productivity than the USA, Canada and the rest of Europe. Not clear yet what Brexit has done for productivity, but so far leaving the EU has damaged rather than improve the UK economy.

Britain's relatively low productivity is despite considerable improvements in recent times. It was even worse in the good old days – UK productivity increased x2.5 between 1970 and 2015.

My advice: never believe your own propaganda! Faced with reality, it's unwise to take refuge in comfortable generalisations. Instead, get to work. Find and make immediate improvements and plan to make more in the future. Never assume that what worked well 50 years ago has any value in 2023!

Whenever Mr Foreigner does better than us, it's our job to get our act together and overtake him. Relying on comfy generalisations is unlikely to help.

Dave

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

In a country with a high service sector it’s perhaps not that surprising that efforts to increase productivity are somewhat ineffective compared to countries with higher industrial bases. I know the coffee shop is often quoted in this context, not much point in automation when your staff can keep up with demand already and you can only produce what is ordered. However to put forward a different sector, I work in a bioscience research lab doing primary research and it’s difficult to see how you would actually measure our productivity. I suspect the numbers for the nation are done on a gross scale of count the workforce and divide that into Gross National Product which is possibly a little meaningless on the scale of individual enterprises. It may suggest to governments that perhaps an economy that made more stuff would do better though. Returning to the Lab the return on our output which is essentially scientific papers often does not happen for many years. We produced the worlds first Monoclonal antibodies hybridised for humans and developed much of the science. Something like a third of all therapeutics are now monoclonal antibody based. (If it’s called somethingorotherMAB it’s a monoclonal antibody). All this happened years after Milstein’s original work so how do you count it productivity wise. You could show people the Nobel medal but they don’t appear on balance sheets.

I’m not suggesting that national productivity figures don’t matter but that jumping to conclusions about education or laziness or inefficiency etc just from the figures doesn’t work without a much more detailed look at what is actually going on. The most useful thing you can do as ask why.

regards Martin

Edited By Martin Kyte on 20/08/2023 11:06:19

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Posted by Martin Kyte on 20/08/2023 11:04:27:

In a country with a high service sector it’s perhaps not that surprising that efforts to increase productivity are somewhat ineffective compared to countries with higher industrial bases. I know the coffee shop is often quoted in this context, not much point in automation when your staff can keep up with demand already and you can only produce what is ordered. However to put

regards Martin

Edited By Martin Kyte on 20/08/2023 11:06:19

More automation means you can get rid of some staff, who would be released to do something more useful.

When I started my career the rule of thumb was if overheads exceeded 30% of costs you were in trouble. In my last position senior management were quite happy that only 28% of staff were engaged in doing work with a tangible result, and that was before we added in cost of infrastructure (buildings, power etc). We had imposed on us a 'culture of continual change'. When I queried this asking whether they meant continual improvement the big chief insisted on 'change', so even if we couldn't think of a way of doing it better they insisted on change. Then of course we could employ lots of 'change managers' and hordes of HR people to run around in circles.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

A German owned British car factory was something of an embarrassment to its owners, the productivity was best in group until a plant was opened in what was East Germany. That plant had a different rule book from the other plants, as did we.

Mike

Edited By Mike Poole on 20/08/2023 16:16:53

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

A machine tool used by a business does not have to be fitted with guards under uk law. The employer must ensure that they are safe. Of course if they think they are safe without guards and here is an accident they may be in trouble.

As the club mentioned seems to have found, one of the big drivers for safety complinace is insurance company inspections.

Robert.

[File HandleParticipant @filehandle]

The thermit reaction was a standard school chemistry demonstration. A piece of magnesium ribbon being used as a burning wick to start the reaction. Not sure if it is still done however.

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

We use guards at the museum for milling and turning and have a very good record regarding safety. The last accident was somebody falling off some staging and cracking a couple of ribs. We have the added responsibility to avoid adverse publicity by stupid actions in this enviroment.

 I am in the process of designing a chuck guard for the Atlas which is a bit of a challenge.

Edited By old mart on 20/08/2023 20:11:33

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

With regard to mindsets, the most frustrating was one found when a Russion delegation came, wanting to sell to us.

I abandoned a meeting on injectors when every question was answered with "We will do whatever the central Committee tell us to do"

Iniciative factor, less than Zero.!

In contrast, our UK amd US suppliers would try anything to give the desired result.. The German supplier tended to stick more closely to procedures, but would eventually produce the desired result, having gone through procedures.

(One of their UK Engineers was told off for knocking on an office door and entering before being bidden so to do! )

Maybe it was just him, but a Polish American Engineer with whom I worked was keen on procedures and box ticking. To get something done in less than a week, going to the shop foreman concerned would often produce the desired result in 24 hours!

Almost of my working life was spent in problem solving, or diagnostics.

Yes, I think that the British are good at "Thinking outside the box", but not as good at putting things into production as the US.

Howard

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

In a fit of idiocy, our works installed a 'chuck guard' on the 14' swing Craven travelling bed lathe in the erection shop. The lathe was installed in 1948 and didn't get the 'chuck guard' untill the mid 2000's. I don't believe that there had been any chuck related injuries in all that time…

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Never assume that what worked well 50 years ago has any value in 2023!

RUBBISH!

Literally AND metaphorically. Just finished strimming and de-weeding the footpath outside my property, didn't happen fifty years ago when the three man crew with the big metal wheelie bins cleaned the paths and gutters and how much litter is left AFTER the "Waste disposal operatives" have been? Didn't happen when we had dustbin men who weren't averse to actually PICKING UP rubbish.

No matter how 'Safe' you try to make machinery and processes, you'll always find a better idiot. Wouldn't want anyone else to suffer the 'Incidents' that happened to me over more than forty years in ingineering, some of which caused a slight loss of blood, but NEVER a repeat cause.

Used to be a term called common sense but that is an attribute lost in history thanks to the cotton wool attitude of today and that applies to ALL walks of life.

Regards Ian.

Edited By Circlip on 21/08/2023 09:28:16

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 21/08/2023 07:59:18:

Yes, I think that the British are good at "Thinking outside the box", but not as good at putting things into production as the US.

Howard

WW2 proved the superior ability of the US

It wasn't just the big stuff like 3 carriers on day 1 and 73 carriers by 1945, or the B29 program which was even bigger than the manhattan project and at the same time they sent shedloads of B17s, Liberators, Mustangs, shermans and merlin engines to Europe

They sent the USSR nearly all its trucks+ boots + food + clothing + whatever as well

The scope and quantity of US based outputs was mind boggling

[James AlfordParticipant @jamesalford67616]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 20/08/2023 10:19:26:

Posted by James Alford on 20/08/2023 09:17:22:

Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 20/08/2023 08:52:11:

Regarding German manufacturers being efficient by making the work un-skilled, I have heard from source of a different side to that. I knew a sales rep for a large, German agricultural and veterinary products manufacturer. He told me the company preferred British staff for such roles for naturally having a lot more initiative and willingness to help solve the unusual problems and enquiries that sometimes occur in their customers' industries. The Germans, their own employers found, were fine with straightforward sales but too hide-bound by "procedures" and petty office politics to be good at anything straying from the rigid script.

He didn't say how any French or Italian sales staff there, scored on that aspect, influenced by their own national cultures.)

A few years ago, I had to do a comparative study of the British, German and Italian education systems, with a particular emphasis on employability. One thing that sticks in my memory is that, irrespective of the relative academic achievements, feedback from employers of the respective countries was that the British system produced workers with much higher levels of problem solving skills and independent thinking than either of the other two, a skill that employers valued.

In a different job, one of my clients was a Japanese professor of industrial psychology who used to consult with and lecture to major employers. His view was the same: that the British system encourages much more independent thought and questioning than the Japanese system, something of which he was greatly in favour.

James

…

Maybe there's some sort of comfort in that, but the all important financial numbers tell a different story!

Measured in Gross Domestic Product per working hour, British productivity has long been lower than that of similar economies. In the 2019 league table, Britain is 20th, with lower productivity than the USA, Canada and the rest of Europe. Not clear yet what Brexit has done for productivity, but so far leaving the EU has damaged rather than improve the UK economy.

Britain's relatively low productivity is despite considerable improvements in recent times. It was even worse in the good old days – UK productivity increased x2.5 between 1970 and 2015.

My advice: never believe your own propaganda! Faced with reality, it's unwise to take refuge in comfortable generalisations. Instead, get to work. Find and make immediate improvements and plan to make more in the future. Never assume that what worked well 50 years ago has any value in 2023!

Whenever Mr Foreigner does better than us, it's our job to get our act together and overtake him. Relying on comfy generalisations is unlikely to help.

Dave

I wouldn't dispute that at all. The ability to solve problems is useful, obviously, but does not necessarily result in greater efficiency, especially if the underlying systems and processes are robust, effective and reliable in the first place.

James.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by duncan webster on 20/08/2023 15:35:53:

Posted by Martin Kyte on 20/08/2023 11:04:27:

…

…

We had imposed on us a 'culture of continual change'. When I queried this asking whether they meant continual improvement the big chief insisted on 'change', so even if we couldn't think of a way of doing it better they insisted on change. Then of course we could employ lots of 'change managers' and hordes of HR people to run around in circles.

Don't get me started on change management! My experience echo's Duncan's.

After building up an enormous problem by taking the easy way out for decades, the board often wake up in the Last Chance Saloon with no practical way of untangling a complicated knot. Staff who don't see the accounts think everything is fine, and see no reason to change anything, or they've been suffering for years and have no faith management will ever operate in their interests. Under pressure to deliver existing commitments with what they have, middle managers barely cope with day-to-day problems and have no time for bigger issues, even if they were listened too. (Middle managers upset the board by bringing bad news and making strong technical objections to grand visions; best not to ask them anything!) Senior managers focus on the 'big picture', and rarely understand how the business works in detail. They don't know how to re-engineer a large organisation haemorrhaging money because its riddled with thousands of minor inefficiencies.

Not realising productivity is maintained by good-will and arrangements evolved over decades, the board launch an ill-judged untested change programme. It's probably naive, seriously under-resourced, poorly planned, and has no fall-back. It will be dumped on a stressed workforce in hope they can solve a mass of unidentified complicated organisational puzzles and make it work. The attempt will cause a lot of waste and failures when the board are having a very difficult time negotiating money with banks, share-holders, investors and government.

Doesn't always end badly but it's not unusual for entire organisations to be demolished and restarted from scratch. Rather than sort out shattered labour relations in a tiny Victorian factory full of obsolete equipment, it's easier to build a big new factory abroad, fill it with all the latest equipment, and recruit new staff locally who can be trained to implement current best practice without having to deal with the sins of the father. Or sell the brand-name, turn the factory into a car-park, and reinvest the money in bit-coin.

'Big picture', back in the UK, staff released from the thrall of a dying organisation, are re-employed on more productive work by an up-to-date employer, who isn't burdened by what went wrong before. Whilst it works on average, the process is unpleasant: people suffer when it happens to them, in terms of stress it's up there with life-threatening illness. I had many friends who worked for the GPO / BT when it transitioned from copper and Strowger to fibre and digital. Although redundancy was generous, no joke for middle-aged men to find themselves looking for new jobs in a market that didn't value electromechanical communications skills. Horrible.

Today, young people do not expect the job security that became common after 1945. Many of us had it easy!

Dave

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

WW2 proved the superior ability of the US

Yep, a brief period in history when their manufacturing industry moved into gear AFTER 1941. Bit like the Brits inventing Football and Cricket, EVERY other nation seem to think them with the most goals/wickets wins. Thanks to the efforts of a Mr.Ford, I wonder how the residents of Detroit feel about their manufacturing efforts being thrashed by Japan/Korea and now China?

Innovation is the exploitation of invention.

Regards Ian.

Edited By Circlip on 21/08/2023 11:30:05

[VicParticipant @vic]

Time seems to be an important factor for some folk: “I’ve been doing this for 20 years and never had a problem”. This also includes things like food and smoking etc.

A guy on another forum knackered a piece of machinery due to not reading the manual. Having pointed out his error to him he continued to abuse the machine even after it was repaired. For some folks pride is more important than knowledge it seems.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Not everyone knows the maxim of "if all else fails, read the inmstructions"!

I know of a min lathe ruined by the user taking 3/8" cuts when the manual says that 0.010" for roughing.

WHAT did he expect from a 400 watt powered machine?

Personally, I think 0.010" is a bit cautious, but better safe than sorry.

Howard

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

There are two significant employment differences in the USA that probably improve their productivity.

They are very much Hire & Fire. Much less job security. demaond goes down, get rid of some staff.

They generally have much shorter holidays and less generous sick leave provisions. When I tell people in the USA how much leave and paid sick leave I get they are very surprised.

Robert.

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