Sad consequence of rising costs

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Posted by Martin Kyte on 27/06/2022 14:02:16:

Whilst I dislike the idea that hospital visitors have to pay to park it's not actually the hospitals (at least in Cambridge ) that are doing the charging. The entire car park burden was handed over to NCP to run the thinking being that the NHS was there to spend money on patients and not on car parks and their associated running costs. Patients themselves when attending appointments do get I believe free rates and the same goes for A and E. Vistitors however pay full wack. I am fortunate in that our Lab is on the same site as the hospital (my wife has many clinics to attend) so I get to park in our Lab car park. Difficult to see a way out of the problem. If you want free parking you won't get any help from the commercial parking sector and without a charge everyone and his wife will park at the hospital and then get a bus into town taking all the spaces. In order to restrict usage to hospital visitors you have to police the car parks and users which costs money the NHS can ill afford.

Airports? well there is a different fish entirely.

regards Martin

Not at Addenbrookes. If you have an appointment you get a fixed fee for up to 1 day. If you are there less than 2 hours it's cheaper to pay the public rate.

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

JA, Although, at this point in time, I definitely intend to go to the Midland show but I too am not buying tickets in advance. Last year I was taken in by the early publicity for the show and booked a non-refundable hotel room and non-refundable advance railway tickets to Leamington only to be informed later that the show had been cancelled. I accept that it was an exceptional time but the show should never have been announced if there was the slightest chance that it may have to be cancelled. I do not intend to get caught out again, which is unfortunate for the organisers because they may be partly depending on their advance ticket sales to evaluate whether the show will be viable or not but, if this is the case, I think they have only themselves to blame by trumpeting last years show and then cancelling.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

When I went to pick up #2 son at Liverpool you were actually on the one way approach road to the car park before they told you the charge. I just started reversing out (it was late at night and very quiet) and the security van rolled up, all lights flashing. He was a bit nonplussed at my Yorkshire determination not to be ripped off, and opened the barrier to let me through without paying. These charges really are a rip off and should be made illegal. You can't legally park anywhere near Manchester or Liverpool airports without paying because everywhere is festooned with yellow lines. Liverpool has a free drop off, a bit further away, but not pick up. I wouldn't mind paying say £1 with a time limit of 10 minutes, but £4 for 10 minutes is £24/hour, which is taking the mickey

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

Pardon me, but wasn't this thread supposed to be about the effect rising costs are having on our interests rather than petty gripes about hospital car park and airport charges? If you don't like the charges at hospitals and airports use public transport like my wife and I do although we both have cars. We live in a very rural village with minimal public transport links and either leave a car at the nearest station, which is 7 miles away, or park it on a relative's drive nearer to the larger town and then take the bus because its 'free' for us senior citizens (which only means younger people pay for us) and a senior railcard is a good investment too.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 27/06/2022 21:02:47:

Posted by Martin Kyte on 27/06/2022 14:02:16:

Whilst I dislike the idea that hospital visitors have to pay to park it's not actually the hospitals (at least in Cambridge ) that are doing the charging. The entire car park burden was handed over to NCP to run the thinking being that the NHS was there to spend money on patients and not on car parks and their associated running costs. Patients themselves when attending appointments do get I believe free rates and the same goes for A and E. Vistitors however pay full wack. I am fortunate in that our Lab is on the same site as the hospital (my wife has many clinics to attend) so I get to park in our Lab car park. Difficult to see a way out of the problem. If you want free parking you won't get any help from the commercial parking sector and without a charge everyone and his wife will park at the hospital and then get a bus into town taking all the spaces. In order to restrict usage to hospital visitors you have to police the car parks and users which costs money the NHS can ill afford.

Airports? well there is a different fish entirely.

regards Martin

Not at Addenbrookes. If you have an appointment you get a fixed fee for up to 1 day. If you are there less than 2 hours it's cheaper to pay the public rate.

Ok. I stand corrected (I did say "do get I believe free rates &quot. I always use our car park or my wifes disabled badge so I didn't know for sure. At least they make some attempt at reducing costs for patients.

regards Martin

[mark costello 1Participant @markcostello1]

If it digs into My wallet, it is not petty.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by mark costello 1 on 27/06/2022 23:53:38:

If it digs into My wallet, it is not petty.

Hence hospital parking charges do arguably contribute, for many of the older generation particularly, to the effect rising costs are having on our interests.

I can see no need to defend hospital parking charges, especially when some hospitals charge disabled badge holders whose disability means they cannot use public transport.

Life in the UK today is not just about rising costs but costs for more and more things that previously were free.

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

"Life in the UK today is not just about rising costs but costs for more and more things that previously were free."

Absolutely nothing is 'free'. You may not pay for some services at the point of delivery, like NHS treatment or the use of a bus pass but this just means you or someone else has paid for it elsewhere, i.e. yourself if you are under state retirement age and still working or younger working people through their National Insurance Contributions, again maybe even yourself through your council or income tax in the case of a bus pass. You can watch quite a few subscription-free television channels but in reality they have been paid for by the advertisers, so should you buy one of their products or service, it will have an element of this cost factored into the retail price.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

But there is a difference between paying (even if indirectly) for what something costs such as NHS service, and paying as much or more again to cover a profit-making venture such as commercially run parking lots.

We've seen it here in Oz with the privatisation of formerly government owned services such as electricity. Oh yes they touted, there will be more suppliers, more consumer choice, and more competition which will drive electricity prices down. I don't even have to tell you how that worked out. Same as everywhere else, prices skyrocketed and the various corporations who took over from the government made a fortune by adding on massive profit margins at consumers' expense.

Totally unfettered free markets work wonderfully at increasing efficiency — efficiency at making a profit as the expense of all other factors, which is not necessarily what you want for essential services such as health care and electricity, or hospital parking. Just look at the American example. More money per capita spent on healthcare than any other nation in the world. But one of the lowest standards of overall healthcare in the Western world — as evidenced by their ultra high covid fatalities — all due to the amount of that money that gets sucked up as the massive profit margin in their unique privatised healthcare and insurance system.

Jeez, don't get me started…

[B TulleyParticipant @btulley]

Posted by duncan webster on 27/06/2022 21:32:03:

You can't legally park anywhere near Manchester or Liverpool airports without paying because everywhere is festooned with yellow lines. Liverpool has a free drop off, a bit further away, but not pick up. I wouldn't mind paying say £1 with a time limit of 10 minutes, but £4 for 10 minutes is £24/hour, which is taking the mickey

A few weeks ago I got caught by the Gatwick Airport drop-off charge – I was looking for the long stay parking and missed the turn off, so had to "go around". As soon as I saw the drop off charge sign I was committed, with no way out; it cost me a fiver for a "didn't even stop" drive-thru' that took seconds, literally. Wasn't a happy bunny.

[RMAParticipant @rma]

This is an interesting topical discussion which affects all of us, one way or another. Unfortunately assets and essential services in the UK have been allowed to be sold off, piece by piece, to foreign governments, foreign companies and syndicates, who are all in it for profit! Government spin would have us believe it's for our own good!

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

"Government spin would have us believe it's for our own good!"

This thread is in danger of descending into a political debate which may attract the attention of a moderator. However, the above quote is very subjective as it depends on whether you view the unfettered 'free market' as a self-regulating mechanism that brings its own benefits or whether you believe a more regulated economy would protect those with the least economic assets, i.e. low skill labour etc., or going even further whether you think that a centrally planned 'command economy' would be a good idea. And that's as far as I dare go on this subject.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Without getting political, but sticking to economics, the big fly in the ointment of free market theory is the unsubstantiated assumptions that consumers always make choices that are 1. Informed. 2. Rational. And 3. In their own best interests.

If that were the case, the advertising industry would not exist.

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

"Without getting political, but sticking to economics"

I would contend that economics and politics are one and the same. Exactly the same as war is a continuation of politics by other means as someone once said, "an act of violence intended to compel our opponent to fulfil our own will".

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

They were taught as two different classes when I went to school. War was studied in the playground at lunchtime.

But it's hard to tell these days. Do the politicians control the economy? They like to take credit for it when its going well. Or do the corporations control politics through donations and backhanders? Now, that's getting political so I shall stop there.

Edited By Hopper on 28/06/2022 11:24:18

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

Sadly, school is not the real world. A better and more useful education is only obtained by attending the University of Life but even there some people fail to obtain the necessary qualifications, I may be one of them as I have had to apply for a few resits in order to progress to the post-graduate level.

[Anonymous]

Posted by Martin Kyte on 27/06/2022 14:02:16:

Whilst I dislike the idea that hospital visitors have to pay to park it's not actually the hospitals (at least in Cambridge ) that are doing the charging. The entire car park burden was handed over to NCP to run the thinking being that the NHS was there to spend money on patients and not on car parks and their associated running costs.

That's not unique to the UK, in fact I dare say it happens in most jurisdictions. The parking here is part of and owned by the hospital but like yours is subcontracted to a third-party to run. Doing it that way is full of advantage to the hospital:

– although the hospital owns the parking (it's part of the hospital) they don't have to get involved in day to day running, charging parking fees, problems with users etc. They just take a periodic stipend from the third party.

– if you don't like the parking fees …. talk to the third party, not the hospital.

– problems at the automatic checkout …. talk to the third party

– insufficient parking to handle the volume of patients? … talk to the third party.

– got charged a $50 parking fine (by the third-party) for parking in a non-approved (but non-blocking) spot because your appointment time had gone by and there were no spaces left? Nothing to do with the hospital ……. talk to the third party.

– Don't think the third party has any legal legitimacy to level fines anyway? …. talk to the third party.

Why would any hospital do it any other way?

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Posted by Peter Greene 🇨🇦 on 28/06/2022 22:11:35:

Posted by Martin Kyte on 27/06/2022 14:02:16:

Whilst I dislike the idea that hospital visitors have to pay to park it's not actually the hospitals (at least in Cambridge ) that are doing the charging. The entire car park burden was handed over to NCP to run the thinking being that the NHS was there to spend money on patients and not on car parks and their associated running costs.

That's not unique to the UK, in fact I dare say it happens in most jurisdictions. The parking here is part of and owned by the hospital but like yours is subcontracted to a third-party to run. Doing it that way is full of advantage to the hospital:

– although the hospital owns the parking (it's part of the hospital) they don't have to get involved in day to day running, charging parking fees, problems with users etc. They just take a periodic stipend from the third party.

– if you don't like the parking fees …. talk to the third party, not the hospital.

– problems at the automatic checkout …. talk to the third party

– insufficient parking to handle the volume of patients? … talk to the third party.

– got charged a $50 parking fine (by the third-party) for parking in a non-approved (but non-blocking) spot because your appointment time had gone by and there were no spaces left? Nothing to do with the hospital ……. talk to the third party.

– Don't think the third party has any legal legitimacy to level fines anyway? …. talk to the third party.

Why would any hospital do it any other way?

Because they're supposed to care?

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

In my direct and recent experience:

– the doctors care about the patients.

-the nurses and nurses' aides care about the patients, and go WAY above and beyond to help them.

-the volunteers care about the patients and visitors.

-the receptionists and clerks care about the patients and visitors.

-the administrators and accountants care -ONLY ABOUT MAKING / GETTING MONEY

[Anonymous]

Posted by blowlamp on 28/06/2022 22:53:10:

 

Posted by Peter Greene 🇨🇦 on 28/06/2022 22:11:35:

Why would any hospital do it any other way?

Because they're supposed to care?

 

It may well be different in the UK but hospitals here are (forced by politicians to) run as a business as well as providing health care. Not that I think that excuses the parking issues.

And +1 to Jeff's comment

(note the edited quoting )

Edited By Peter Greene 🇨🇦 on 29/06/2022 01:33:39

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

ON the other hand, if they did not charge for hospital parking these days, the car park would be chock full of local businesses' employees enjoying free all-day parking and many hospital visitors would miss out on a park at all.

[RMAParticipant @rma]

Posted by Jeff Dayman on 29/06/2022 01:31:18:

In my direct and recent experience:

– the doctors care about the patients.

-the nurses and nurses' aides care about the patients, and go WAY above and beyond to help them.

-the volunteers care about the patients and visitors.

-the receptionists and clerks care about the patients and visitors.

-the administrators and accountants care -ONLY ABOUT MAKING / GETTING MONEY

Referring to the NHS and the UK, if the management structure was pruned to an effective level and waste management implemented, they wouldn't have to resort to parking charges, or shopping franchises.

[Anthony KendallParticipant @anthonykendall53479]

Posted by Hopper on 29/06/2022 03:54:37:

ON the other hand, if they did not charge for hospital parking these days, the car park would be chock full of local businesses' employees enjoying free all-day parking and many hospital visitors would miss out on a park at all.

Mr. Hopper, I think you've been taken in by the incompetent ramblings of administrators Jeff Dayman talks about. I have seen them put up this argument, which, on the surface appears logical.

EXCEPT – even I could set up a system which ties parking to appointments. I know admin people are notoriously poor at admin, but they could, if they wish, have this kind of system.

Please lets not hear the NHS is short of cash and is in dire need of the parking cash! There's enough grief in going to hospital without stress created because parking may overrun or you do not have change.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Anthony Kendall on 29/06/2022 09:23:43:

Posted by Hopper on 29/06/2022 03:54:37:

ON the other hand, if they did not charge for hospital parking these days, the car park would be chock full of local businesses' employees enjoying free all-day parking and many hospital visitors would miss out on a park at all.

Mr. Hopper, I think you've been taken in by the incompetent ramblings of administrators Jeff Dayman talks about. I have seen them put up this argument, which, on the surface appears logical.

EXCEPT – even I could set up a system which ties parking to appointments. I know admin people are notoriously poor at admin, but they could, if they wish, have this kind of system.

Please lets not hear the NHS is short of cash and is in dire need of the parking cash! There's enough grief in going to hospital without stress created because parking may overrun or you do not have change.

Yes you and I could set up a system to tie parking to appointments but that doesn't mean government bureaucrats could! And still does not help visitors coming in to see family and friends inside. I can't think how I would set up a system to cater for them, especially oldies and others not very internet savvy for online bookings etc.

The real scalpers though are at the airports. What used to be government-owned providing a service to taxpayers has now become a merciless commercial monopoly preying on a captive audience with no choice. Prices make hospital parking seem benign.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Posted by RMA on 29/06/2022 08:14:04:

Posted by Jeff Dayman on 29/06/2022 01:31:18:

In my direct and recent experience:

– the doctors care about the patients.

-the nurses and nurses' aides care about the patients, and go WAY above and beyond to help them.

-the volunteers care about the patients and visitors.

-the receptionists and clerks care about the patients and visitors.

-the administrators and accountants care -ONLY ABOUT MAKING / GETTING MONEY

Referring to the NHS and the UK, if the management structure was pruned to an effective level and waste management implemented, they wouldn't have to resort to parking charges, or shopping franchises.

The the NHS do not resort to parking charges. They have shed the cost of running the car parks and in our many cases building new multi story car parks. I would rather see money being spent on patients rather than on car parking costs. Our Lab has it's own car parking but the barrier system and charging which is supplied and supported by an external company costs us around £70,000 a year. That's just for the software and the barriers.

A large hospital car park costs must run into millions, which is a lot of nurses.

As for shopping franchises I dont see what the problem is. All the costs of maintaining and refurbishing the concorses is on the franchise and shop space is rented out to individual retailers so the hospital, it's staff and the visitors get the benifit of the facillities with no burdon on the NHS.

regards Martin

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