Rust Protection

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Concrete garages are renowned for "sweating".

May I suggest, if there is enough space, to fix 50 mm battens to the walls and fill the space with glass fibre behind 12 mm ply?

Give the door similar treatment if you possibly can. A metal door is NO insulator.

Paint the ply white and the place will seem much lighter.

If you can apply the same treatment to the ceiling, you will find the place much cosier, and almost devoid of condensation and the rust problems that it causes.

My shop, in East Anglia, is only 10'9" x 6'9" external, 19mm cladding outside, glass fibre between 50 mm frames, walls and ceiling.

The only uninsulated bit is the 3/4" ply floor standing on 8 x 2 bearers protected on three sides, on concrete slabs.

A 2 Kw fan heater rarely runs for more than 15 minutes before the thermostat operates. Then it runs, perhaps for 5 minutes every 30 -40 minutes.

When it is frosty, a 60W tubular heater under the bench produces a bench warm to the touch afetr about 24 hours.

Rust is almost never seen, despite no extra oiling / protection.

Howard.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Posted by Chris Suddell on 25/10/2021 05:41:55:

I think I'm done for because my Lathe and Mill are in a concrete garage with no insulation.

I'm going to clean them up again and apply some rust preventative and I'm going to have to keep on top of them every week. Unfortunately I only use them about every month. Most of my parts are 3d printed.

It looks like the long term solution is to get them out of the garage and into an insulated wooden shed.

Thanks for all the replies.

External garages like concrete ones seldom have a damp proof membrane under the floor, that might be your problem.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

It would be worth buying /making some duckboards to keep your feet off the cold concrete floor.

When Toys R Us were in business, they sold rubber mats 1 metre square. Cut in half, provided two metres of matting in front of a lathe or milling machine.

Sit down before you look at the price of mats from industrial suppliers, like Cromwell.

But look around for alternatives from cheaper sources.

Amazon do some Wellmax 60 x 40 cm barrier mats for £11.99 with free delivery on the first order.

Have a look on Google to see what is available.

Howard

[egaParticipant @ega]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 25/10/2021 15:19:44:

It would be worth buying /making some duckboards to keep your feet off the cold concrete floor.

Wear clogs and you will have "duckboards" with you wherever you go.

[BrevaParticipant @breva]

Lanolin does work well. It can be a bit slippy on something you work with every day but good for longterm protection on metal surfaces. Quite cheap also from the bay if you find it in jars for hair care and pleasantly smelling.

Regarding duckboards, farm supplies do what they call cow mats. Dense black foam an 1"+ thick and very durable.

Halfords also had packs of floormatting at a reasonable price. It doesnt like arc welding sparks though!

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

My bigger machines are in a 30 x 12 brick garage with no dpc and as I have mentioned before on similar threads that they all use hydraulic oil as coolant with no rusting in the last 25 years!!

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

When I converted my single skin brick garage I had the floor done with mastic ashpalt. Gets it very smooth and waterproof, ten 25mm foam covered with 22mm flooring grade chipboard. Cut holes in it and use solid packers for machine feet. The as others have said build an inside out shed inside with insulation in the walls. Vapour barrier between the inner skin and the insulation. Now as warm as toast and no rust

The white expanded foam isn't fire rated I believe, the pin stuff is, but is more expensive. You ca get rigidised rockwool as well, known as cavity bats

Edited By duncan webster on 25/10/2021 22:44:05

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

I always had rusting problems until I fitted a pair of 10W self regulating cabinet heaters from RS Components inside the lathe bed. Used to spray the lathe with WD40, and then had to wipe it off before using the lathe. Since fitting the heaters no more rust.

Downside, especially in this day and age, is that the heaters actually take about 38W so there is a constant electric current drain. But what the heck, it works and prevents all the messy cleanup I used to have to do.

The heaters keep the lathe at a temperature slightly above ambient, whatever ambient is, thus preventing condensation. When I bought my mill/drill, I wedged a piece of aluminium, about 200mm x 100mm x 13mm into the machine base, and screwed a 10W self regulating heater onto it. And again, no rusting to date.

Other people have done similar things, eg a small incandescent bulb under the lathe, or some of the self-regulating heating tape, designed, I believe, as a frost prevention device.

Peter G. Shaw

[Jonathon BywaterParticipant @jonathonbywater45041]

I bought some treated brown paper a few years ago which helped. Then I used slideways oil ,brown paper on top and had virtualy no trouble.

[File HandleParticipant @filehandle]

Hand tools I wipe with a rag in a can impregnated with 3in1 oil.

[Chris SuddellParticipant @chrissuddell31348]

Hi,

An update on this one, I have been trying some different ways to keep the rust at bay. I also have the go ahead for another shed in the garden which will be insulated. The Lathe and Mill have been coated with ACF50, I had some in the garage from a few years ago so lets see how that goes.

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

This is the dehumidifier I have. It has loads of options including a humistat and includes a drain tube.

It costs less than more basic ones from places like Screwfix and Toolstation.

http://www.appliancesdirect.co.uk/p/cd10l/electriq-cd10l-dehumidifier

Probably one of my best buys!

Neil

[Mike CrossfieldParticipant @mikecrossfield92481]

+1 for a dehumidifier. I use one in my unheated brickbuilt workshop (concrete floor), and I never see any rust. Cheap to run set to 70% humidity, and even generates a little heat. My wife also appreciates the endless supply of “distilled” water for her steam iron. I bought mine secondhand on eBay 10 years ago – best £30 I ever spent.

[John Doe 2Participant @johndoe2]

My garage is buried in the earth under the house, apart from the doorway, and never gets colder than 11°C despite no insulation. It has a membrane all around between the earth and the blocks and concrete. I have a dehumidifier with external drain and I keep it on 24/7. It ran for about 2 weeks initially while it dried out everything in the garage, but now only runs for a short while after I've opened the door – I keep the door closed as much as possible.

A bucket left with one cm of water in it was bone dry in a couple of days. But do buy a decent quality dehumidifier, not a toy one – mine cost about £250.

Have you tried Machine wax? Rutlands sell a 'Premium machine & tool wax' it and it has no silicon, so will not stain wood. It simply buffs on with a cloth and leaves a smooth dry finish. (I have no connection with Rutlands.)

[Trevor Drabble 1Participant @trevordrabble1]

Chris , You may find theundercoverworkshop on eBay may be able to help with more suitable covers . Also , in the past , people have put a low powered electrical heat source , such as a small light bulb , under their covers to help reduce the problem of condensation.

[DalboyParticipant @dalboy]

I have one of THESE in the workshop it just keeps the temperature above freezing reducing the risk of rust forming. This is a low wattage unit and can be set to turn off once a set temperate is set

I think I may now need a second unit as the new workshop is much larger area than the old one.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Trevor Drabble on 27/01/2022 09:32:28:

… Also , in the past , people have put a low powered electrical heat source , such as a small light bulb , under their covers to help reduce the problem of condensation.

Never been happy myself with light bulbs for this purpose because of the fire and shock hazard. Inflammable covers can get too hot and glass bulbs are easily broken.

Ignoring safety, filament lamps work for this application because they're a grossly inefficient way of making light – about 98% of their output is heat. As ordinary filament bulbs are big and getting hard to find, 25W oven lamps might be suitable: two in series would give about 12W heat.

In a practical build, I'd wire the bulbs with heat-proof insulation, use ceramic holders, protect the glass with an suitable enclosure, and fit some sort of thermal cut-out. I'd also use resistors rather than lamps.

I don't know of a source of ready made equipment heaters. Has anyone tried any of the modern alternatives, such as the thermostatically controlled heating pads used to warm reptile tanks, incubating eggs, and seedlings?

Dave

[Dave WoottonParticipant @davewootton]

I don't know where to purchase them but some of the switchgear we used to make was fitted with very neat low wattage 240v panel heaters in the control compartment to prevent condensation ( was used outside). About 159mm long looking like a finned resistor with a heat shield, I think they were about 40W connected via a thermostat and would be ideal, all the connections and very hot bits being safely enclosed. Never took much notice I'm afraid , was more on the HV side of things, they just used to appear from the stores, but must be available.

Dave

Should have taken some as part of my redundancy package, could do with them now!

It is possible to get low wattage tubular heaters which could be fitted under a metal lathe cabinet top or similar, seem to remember some about 250mm long and 40w ish.

Edited By Dave Wootton on 27/01/2022 12:28:46

[John Doe 2Participant @johndoe2]

I don't know what they are called but you can get background heaters consisting of a roughly metre long, completely enclosed metal tube, (i.e., no vents), containing a mains electric heating element.

They can be clipped to a wall and provide low level heat for greenhouses etc. to prevent frost. I imagine you could fix one under a lathe and after a day or so, the whole lathe would warm up to a few degrees above ambient.

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

The EU messed up all the electrical lighting and now one finds that LED lamps are the norm, But, if you go to an electrical retailer and ask for INDUSTRIAL bulbs you will get what you want. I think they may be ruggedised in some way?

Of course as lighting as changed the way of mounting the lamps has chamged so further expense fitting new mounting points for teh new lighting types.

As my kitchen lighting flourescent tubes started getting expensive with four in the holder I looked for the LED alternative. These I found in LE ligting's cataogue, I bought two round lights for bathroom use and fitted them and they are fine. Dont buy daylight type, buy the warm light ones.

[Dave WoottonParticipant @davewootton]

Had a google Farnell do a panel heater a bit like the one I mentioned above for £22 ish but TLC electrical do a 250mm long low watt tubular heater for £16 odd, which seems quite reasonable, The ones like we used at work all seem a bit pricey

HTH

Dave

[Danny M2ZParticipant @dannym2z]

Posted by Bo'sun on 09/10/2021 08:59:15:

Why Lanolin? I recall using it as an apprentice to protect measuring instruments in the metrology department.

I guess if it keeps sheep dry, it must have something going for it.

Yep, lanolin is excellent for protecting bare steel.

[Danny M2ZParticipant @dannym2z]

I use this to protect my machine ways, Inox MX-3.

A friend who owns a very expensive ocean racing yacht advised me many years ago to try this, so after a machining session I give the ways a spritz from a spray can and so far, not a trace of rust in 15 years.

It's also handy for machining aluminium if one runs out of kero

[andrew lynerParticipant @andrewlyner71257]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 08/10/2021 12:34:59:

 

Ventilate; with a vent as low as possible. Moist air is heavier than dry, so a low vent allows it to go outside.

Howard

There is a bit of confusion of what constitutes 'moist air'. School Chemistry tells is there are the same number of molecules in a given volume of a mixture of gases (Avagadro's Hypothesis). Water molecules are actually very light (just one Oxygen Atom plus two very light Hydrogen Atoms) that compares with O2 and N2 molecules which both have two heavy Atoms in them. So air that's above its dew point will actually be lighter than air with no H2O. However, when there are water droplets (when air is around its dew point), they will sink.

So it's not straightforward WHY any of the strategies that people use may work, although I believe what folks tell me about their methods.

Since this thread started there have been changes in 1. The opinion about the use of Energy and 2. The cost of it. That alters the situation. There's no way that heating a shed or even running a dehumidifier is an attractive idea now.

Are there any new views about the way to keep exposed tools rust-free? You can buy very expensive paper to wrap things in and that seems to work because most things you buy are not rusty. What's the magic liquid they put on the paper to make it work?.

Edited By andrew lyner on 25/11/2022 17:02:25

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Now that heating is off it is advisable to cover all tools and especially machines with an old cotton sheet, possibly a blanket if available to catch the dew that will now be dropping down in the shed on some days. NOT a plastic sheet which will sweat underneath exactly the opposite of what you want. Yes I know Myford sell a plastic lathe cover but that is intended for heated industrial users and schools, not your damp shed.

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