Rust on New Lathe

[LathejackParticipant @lathejack]

But it is not just a Far Eastern hobby machine quality, or you get what you pay for, sort of issue is it.

If you pay for a new unused machine, in as new condition, then that is what you should get, regardless of its country of origin or build quality, or price.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

But, now, having received a satisfactory (To him ) refund the OP did not pay full price for the machine.

Again, it has to be said that you don't get Rolls Royce quality for a Lada price!

The air on the moral high ground contains less oxygen than at basic sea level.

Howard

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 16/11/2022 07:08:29:

But, now, having received a satisfactory (To him ) refund the OP did not pay full price for the machine.

.

… and so the Warco myth lives on

MichaelG.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 16/11/2022 08:22:21:

Posted by Howard Lewis on 16/11/2022 07:08:29:

But, now, having received a satisfactory (To him ) refund the OP did not pay full price for the machine.

.

… and so the Warco myth lives on

MichaelG.

.. and what is that?

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Mick B1 on 16/11/2022 09:04:09:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 16/11/2022 08:22:21:

Posted by Howard Lewis on 16/11/2022 07:08:29:

But, now, having received a satisfactory (To him ) refund the OP did not pay full price for the machine.

.

… and so the Warco myth lives on

MichaelG.

.. and what is that?

.

That they are a dependable supplier of high quality but reasonably priced machinery.

In the years that I have been watching posts about Warco, it has become quite clear that they “buy” that reputation by exchanging rejects, or providing spares or refunds.

Personally; I would prefer to see evidence of actual Quality Control.

[ just a little affectation of mine, don’t let it worry you ]

MichaelG.

[jaCK HobsonParticipant @jackhobson50760]

I don't see reason in this post not to still consider Warco a dependable supplier of reasonably priced machinery.

I don't consider any available hobby machine 'quality' at this price..

They seem to have offered a full refund. And £200 seems good if it really is just cosmetic. There will always be mistakes and disagreements. We don't know the exact details. I don't think I'm put off buying from Warco just for this.

I bought a rear parting tool post for the myford this month – clamp bolt didn't fit cross slide and I don't think it was on Centre height; initially annoying but I had fun correcting the issues. Tilting table from Vevor didn't go to 45 degrees until I took an angle grinder to it. I consider this is par for the course for buying cheap.

I know the bad taste in the mouth when you think you are being done over on a big purchase. But if the issue really doesn't impact function, it might be best to just get over it asap and enjoy the tool. Maybe I could help John by telling him I think he negotiated a good deal!

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 16/11/2022 09:16:00:

Posted by Mick B1 on 16/11/2022 09:04:09:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 16/11/2022 08:22:21:

Posted by Howard Lewis on 16/11/2022 07:08:29:

But, now, having received a satisfactory (To him ) refund the OP did not pay full price for the machine.

.

… and so the Warco myth lives on

MichaelG.

.. and what is that?

.

That they are a dependable supplier of high quality but reasonably priced machinery.

In the years that I have been watching posts about Warco, it has become quite clear that they “buy” that reputation by exchanging rejects, or providing spares or refunds.

Personally; I would prefer to see evidence of actual Quality Control.

[ just a little affectation of mine, don’t let it worry you ]

MichaelG.

Well, I'd say adequate quality, but I've found them so within the reasonable constraints of a commercial outfit. I can agree that in the case of my particular lathe the alleged QA tests didn't always appear to match the values I discovered with my own tests, but in the matters I thought important (eg. 3 jaw chuck hold concentricity) I found that the actual results were significantly better than declared. And other matters like tailstock alignment were easily corrected.

When I broke the crosslide leadscrew shearpin and it fell into, and jammed, the apron gearbox, they gave me useful advice on a suitable dismantling procedure.

So as far as I'm concerned it's not a myth – they're just a company with a good eye for cost-effective design in the field, and a pragmatic commercial attitude to resolving customer issues. There is no magic.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

jaCK

I am retired now [as I suspect many forum members are] … but when I was working, I would have questioned whether it was worth my time to negotiate that deal.

… and yes, when I mentioned “actual Quality Control” I was taking into account that the required quality might be relatively low in absolute terms.

No-one is suggesting that a Warco lathe is of Schaublin [or whatever] quality, but I still believe it should be supplied ‘as advertised’

MichaelG.

.

Edit: __ https://www.warco.co.uk/content/55-warco-customers

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 16/11/2022 09:51:14

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, I've used industrial machines my whole working life, and even some of them have had a shortcoming or two, but do get the job done, and some of them have been second hand which needed a little rust cleaning off when they have been in storage, but still work very well.

My first Warco machine is a 220 lathe that I bought second hand for around £300.00, and it had a fair bit of use, but I've made many things to a moderately very good standard and is still in very good condition. My second Watco machine is my Major milling machine, which I bought brand new and that is also a very good machine and there was no evidence of any rust on it when unpacking and just needed a clean-up of the protective grease and a little adjustment to the table X travel gib. The last one I bought brand new just a while ago is a bandsaw with the vertical option of use, and although it is clear that it is a budget machine and can't really come up to industrial types that I have used, it seems to be capable of the use that I will ever give it. In contrast, my Chester Champion mill/drill that I bought brand new back in 1997 had a fault, in that the gib in the Table X travel was too thin and with it adjusted to the maximum it would go, wouldn't take out all the slop, and also the motor pulley wasn't in line with the mill spindle pulley, so the motor and guard assembly had to have a 3mm shim put in-between that and the quill housing. I didn't realise these until it was too late to complain, but I just added a suitable thickness of steel shim stock between the gib and the base and it has been working perfectly well ever since. I also have a Clarke floor standing drill press which I bought from Myford's sell-up, which doesn't come anywhere near as good as any industrial machines I've used, but it is adequate for my needs.

So, most hobby machines will have shortcomings of a sort, but of course the price of these compared to like industrial standard machines is very wide as these are expected to be able to work, day in and day out, some of which will do or have done a three-shift pattern every week.

If I'd have been in John McCulla's position, I would have accepted the offer that Warco gave him and just clean that little bit of rust off, you can get some decent tooling with that offer, and it does save all the hassle of a replacement, but I do understand that's not everyone's opinion.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 16/11/2022 11:13:34

[jaCK HobsonParticipant @jackhobson50760]

£200 – get a decent QCTP and lots of holders. I'm not convinced how good the one recommended on Warco site is… maybe get some opinions. But maybe the 4 post will see you through for a while.

Stuff you need: boring tool, knurling tool, centre/spot drills

Stuff for speed: spare drill chucks? QCTP. DRO

Stuff for quality work: Collet chucks, measuring equipment (dial indicator, calipers)

[File HandleParticipant @filehandle]

Having followed this post it occurs to me that the rust on the lathe might be due to COVID lockdown in China. Production stopped, but product still on production line, possibly sprayed with disinfectant, rust starts. Production restarts and tries to meet demand. Lathe with surface rust not rejected on quality grounds due to not being able to supply demand.
£200 off does seem a very fair deal.
What would the equivalent Myford cost new now? 10x that of a Chinese import?

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Keith Wyles on 16/11/2022 14:59:16:

[…] not rejected on quality grounds due to not being able to supply demand.

.

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

Posted by Keith Wyles on 16/11/2022 14:59:16:

What would the equivalent Myford cost new now? 10x that of a Chinese import?

£7,450 to £10,900 Depending on the options you choose, so a multiplier in the region of 3.12× to 4.56×….

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

Posted by Jelly on 16/11/2022 15:31:54:

Posted by Keith Wyles on 16/11/2022 14:59:16:

What would the equivalent Myford cost new now? 10x that of a Chinese import?

£7,450 to £10,900 Depending on the options you choose, so a multiplier in the region of 3.12× to 4.56×….

One inflation calculator (the first of many that came up in Google) gives £100 in 1947 when the ML7 became available at £47 is now £4624.31 – so call it £2200 but of course that did not include a motor or stand – mind you most 3 1/2" lathes today come with a motor but do not include a stand however you do normally get a 3 jaw chuck which you didn't with a Myford.

Please don't come back with a Myford v. Chinese argument – I am only quoting from Google

A mini lathe can be 3" shorter in the bed but the same centre height as a ML7 and so at £799 10x seems about right.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Nick,

Jelly was quoting todays prices + vat, inflation does not come into it. Please use any links when provided both you comment.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Nick, I think you have this thread mixed up with another, the lathe in this thread has a price tag of £2359.50, not £799.

Regards Nick.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by Nicholas Farr on 16/11/2022 16:35:39:

Hi Nick, I think you have this thread mixed up with another, the lathe in this thread has a price tag of £2359.50, not £799.

Regards Nick.

I think Nick's point is that an ML7 isn't equivalent in size and spec to Warco's WM250V but to a smaller kind of mini-lathe.

It's mystifying to me why a discussion about a new WM250V arriving with rust on should ever have moved people to point out that the lathe, in spite of its rust, is still good value for money compared with [more] home-grown counterparts.

That, surely, is irrelevant to the present case. What needed to be discussed was whether it is acceptable for a buyer to receive a new lathe, whatever its size, spec and price, in the condition John's pictures suggest his was in on arrival, and, if it isn't acceptable, what choices the seller should offer to address the buyer's disappointment.

At this distance, Warco seem to have given John a satisfactory outcome in spite of not giving a very satisfactory explanation as to how it came about that he ended up with an unusually rusty new lathe in the first place.

Edited By Bill Phinn on 16/11/2022 17:39:30

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Nicholas Farr on 16/11/2022 16:35:39:

Hi Nick, I think you have this thread mixed up with another, the lathe in this thread has a price tag of £2359.50, not £799.

Regards Nick.

Good news for chaps happy to pay for the best because Myford are currently listing 3 new Super 7 variants costing £6588, £7800, or £8940 depending on features. Shipping extra, or collect from showroom.

Not possible to do an exact comparison with the £2359 Warco because the accessories and features are different. , All the Myford lathes come with a stand for instance. However, ignoring the accessories, I'd say the Warco 250V is roughly as feature rich as the £7800 except the Myford has a full gearbox for thread cutting. Others might value back-gear more than I do, so potential buyers should do a point by point comparison and decide for themselves.

Anyway, the price ratio is at least 3.3:1 before shipping and extras like steadies are included.

Personally I'm in favour of buying British, all that's necessary is for famously tight Model Engineers to cough up the cash. Sadly, it appears most Model Engineers are keener to criticise the quality of imports than they are to buy British lathes. Expressing strong opinions on the web is free and easy, perhaps too cheap. I'm far more impressed by folk who put their money where their mouth is! Go on, buy a new Myford!

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 16/11/2022 17:46:59

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

Dave, you are entitled to express your personal prejudices, but please don't try to convince me that mine (which are different) are any less genuine, or relevant, or based on facts, than yours. And be assured, too, that I am not reading this forum to impress you.

Regards, Tim

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 16/11/2022 17:45:48:

…

Personally I'm in favour of buying British, all that's necessary is for famously tight Model Engineers to cough up the cash. Sadly, it appears most Model Engineers are keener to criticise the quality of imports than they are to buy British lathes. Expressing strong opinions on the web is free and easy, perhaps too cheap. I'm far more impressed by folk who put their money where their mouth is! Go on, buy a new Myford!

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 16/11/2022 17:46:59

I can't let that pass without comment. There must be very many like me who simply would not be able to justify the cash to buy a new Myford even if we wanted to.

I would love to buy a British machine and support our own companies and workers, but I simply wouldn't be able to follow this hobby and provide voluntary machining assistance to a local heritage railway were it not for the price/capability mix of the machine I bought.

Spending triple the money on a British machine that has few comparative advantages and some drawbacks makes no sense at all. It is a huge shame that the British amateur machine tool industry didn't manage to compete effectively – any more than several engineering mass-market industries did – but that bus now looks to have gone and it's not clear it'll ever be back. Sorry, but it is what it is.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Mick B1 on 16/11/2022 18:20:51:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 16/11/2022 17:45:48:

…

Personally I'm in favour of buying British, all that's necessary is for famously tight Model Engineers to cough up the cash. Sadly, it appears most Model Engineers are keener to criticise the quality of imports than they are to buy British lathes. Expressing strong opinions on the web is free and easy, perhaps too cheap. I'm far more impressed by folk who put their money where their mouth is! Go on, buy a new Myford!

Dave

I can't let that pass without comment. There must be very many like me who simply would not be able to justify the cash to buy a new Myford even if we wanted to.

…

Including me Mick, I have a Far Eastern workshop…

Dave

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 16/11/2022 18:41:49:

Posted by Mick B1 on 16/11/2022 18:20:51:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 16/11/2022 17:45:48:

…

Personally I'm in favour of buying British, all that's necessary is for famously tight Model Engineers to cough up the cash. Sadly, it appears most Model Engineers are keener to criticise the quality of imports than they are to buy British lathes. Expressing strong opinions on the web is free and easy, perhaps too cheap. I'm far more impressed by folk who put their money where their mouth is! Go on, buy a new Myford!

Dave

I can't let that pass without comment. There must be very many like me who simply would not be able to justify the cash to buy a new Myford even if we wanted to.

…

Including me Mick, I have a Far Eastern workshop…

Dave

Duh. Then I think we need an emoticon to signify the writer assuming a persona with an opinion at variance to their own.

[Anonymous]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 16/11/2022 17:45:48:

Good news for chaps happy to pay for the best because Myford are currently listing 3 new Super 7 variants costing £6588, £7800, or £8940 depending on features. Shipping extra, or collect from showroom.

… but do they come with a rusty bed option?

[Clive Brown 1Participant @clivebrown1]

… but do they come with a rusty bed option?

Don't ask such a question. It will probably only lead to lots of speculation!

[Author]

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