Rust on New Lathe

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Rust on New Lathe

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  • #620493
    SillyOldDuffer
    Moderator
      @sillyoldduffer
      Posted by John McCulla on 10/11/2022 10:10:27:

      Would it be fair to say then that the lathe should be fine going forward? In my head I have it that once metal has started to rust, it is more prone to it in the future. Is that true or am I imagining this? I think I'm going to struggle to get a replacement lathe from Warco, but I'll push for it if I feel it's merited. Obviously it would be simpler for everyone involved if I could keep this lathe.

      My feeling is the lathe should be OK, because the rust is cosmetic. And given that the lathe spindle runs on sealed ball-bearings, the 'oil-leak' is probably nothing, perhaps caused by oil splashing about in the gearbox during transit.

      Rust under paint gets worse once it's started, but not plain metal. It's not a disease. Lathe beds are always prone to rust and it's the owners job to control it. Much depends on how damp the workshop is and how much the temperature swings overnight. Normally, it's more than sufficient to wipe oil over the ways before and after each session, but some folk have to do more. Free-standing single skin garages and uninsulated sheds cause more trouble than a double-skinned garage that's part of the house.

      Based on the limited evidence of a few photos, I see a number of posters insisting the machine is 'unfit for purpose' and war must be declared. As starting a fight is easy to recommend when one is in complete safety, I'd take the advice with a pinch of salt! The customer has to deal with the hassle, not chaps on the internet with strong opinions but no skin in the game. Beware too, that some have an agenda in which nothing but an old-school Western made lathe is any good.

      My hobby lathe and mill are both Far Eastern. Neither is built to industrial standards, but both have done what I need and are still going strong after 6 years. The lathe needed minor tweaks, the mill was acceptable out-of-the-box. They're OK rather than wonderful, and it was no surprise to me that a fully accessorized hobby lathe wasn't finished to the highest possible standards when it cost less than a quarter of the price of a similar western industrial lathe with no accessories. Industrial machines are built for sustained hard work, that's rare necessary in a genteel home workshop!

      There's reasonable concern that water ingress may have caused unseen damage. If the machine runs properly this is unlikely, but a compromise might be to ask for the warranty to be extended. Warco might be unwilling because the machine is already covered for a year, but it could put John's mind at rest.

      Dave

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      #620495
      Ketan Swali
      Participant
        @ketanswali79440
        Posted by Steve Neighbour on 10/11/2022 10:02:50:

        Posted by Ketan Swali on 10/11/2022 09:13:35:

        Posted by Steve Neighbour on 09/11/2022 10:15:00:

        These Lathes are a generic type and offer good quality and specifications, almost all are made by the Weiss Group in Nanjiing, China and shipped worldwide as many different brands and colours such as Warco, Amadeal, Chester, Precision Mathews etc.

        Steve

        I would respectfully like to make a small correction to your comments Steve. These are a generic lathe (not made by SIEG group), but it is wrong to say that almost all of this type of lathe are made by Weiss. This is a myth spread by marketing people, and by people who have limited procurement knowledge. This lathe is made by at least four different factories, and the importers you mention do purchase these lathes from factories other than Weiss.

        I politely request you to be aware of this information before spreading this information in the future.

        Ketan at ARC

        I respectfully stand corrected by your greater knowledge. I have done extensive research, but obviously it was fake information embarrassed

        Steve

        No worries Steve, Weiss and their distributors have great marketing. smiley

        #620496
        JasonB
        Moderator
          @jasonb
          Posted by Hugh Stewart-Smith 1 on 09/11/2022 20:54:19:

           

          As for 'spec.', could you enlighten me as to how we differ from the OP's model? Apart from the colour, that is and that ours is 750mm between centres as opposed to 550mm Incidentally we do also more complete packages for several of our machines which I believe you weren't aware of (reference to an older thread on this topic) Best wishes, Hugh

           

          Hugh does your machine not have a brushless motor where as the Warco has an AC 3-phase motor and inverter. From many postings on the forum I would say a lot of people favour the inverter option over brushless and are willing to pay more for that option.

          Your 135rpm minimum speed may also put people off as Warco's 30rpm would be less but clenching when threading.

          Also not sure why you list it as a 250 x 750 (10x22) and you may want to alter what ctrs come with the machine as MT5 inti MT4 won't go neither will MT3 into MT2. wink 2

           

          Edited By JasonB on 10/11/2022 12:28:38

          #620503
          Jelly
          Participant
            @jelly
            Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 10/11/2022 11:51:46:

            Based on the limited evidence of a few photos, I see a number of posters insisting the machine is 'unfit for purpose' and war must be declared. As starting a fight is easy to recommend when one is in complete safety, I'd take the advice with a pinch of salt! The customer has to deal with the hassle, not chaps on the internet with strong opinions but no skin in the game. Beware too, that some have an agenda in which nothing but an old-school Western made lathe is any good.

            You have a point about the hassle, and so on…

            But the condition it turned up in is just not cricket… and Warco must be well aware that if they sent something in a condition like that to a business customer there would be a very real risk of them rejecting it out of hand and refusing the pay the PO until it was sorted.

            So I would absolutely think it reasonable to push for something from Warco by way of acknowledgement of the fact that they cocked up, without going overboard.

             

            Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 10/11/2022 11:51:46:

            Beware too, that some have an agenda in which nothing but an old-school Western made lathe is any good.

            I feel like they don't have a leg to stand on here, given the inevitable compromises of buying a used lathe…

            Short of happening on a Hardinge that's spent its life in a climate controlled university lab, now reselling for the mere price of a new car, or some equally infrequent and unlikely scenario… You're just not going to find a used lathe in as clean a condition as the WM250V in the pictures.

             

            FWIW I think the "old iron" approach is better value for money if you have the space, the ability to move the machines, and the skills/willingness to assess/patch up ailing machines, but that's more a comment on the compromises inherent to all small, value-engineered machine tools.

            I know a good number of people who were fortunate enough to be able to move from exquisitely manufactured Myford's with all the bells and whistles to modern full size lathes from Warco et. al. and found it to be a big step up despite the supposed superiority of manufacture/finish on a Myford; I doubt they'd see the same level of performance jump by buying a new Trens or Colchester to replace their new Warco or Chester.

            Ultimately engineering is all about optimisation problems, and choosing machine tools is no different; each user has to optimise for their use case and decide what the right balance to strike is. For me a WM250V or the like is a frustrating machine to use, but that doesn't make it a bad machine, just a slow one by the standards of a user who fully acknowledges their impatience…

            Edited By Jelly on 10/11/2022 14:21:07

            #620514
            Tim Stevens
            Participant
              @timstevens64731

              There are factors which do not seem to have been considered: The evidence shows (a) that damp (at least) has affected this machine, and no check seems to have been made about other (hidden) areas of steel which might also be affected, or on the effect on the switchgear and any electronic parts. Both these will require examination when both parties are present, and any subsequent acceptance by the new owner should be conditional – in writing – on any hidden faults being sorted without further question.

              and (b) that Warco (if they are indeed the supplier) have not complied with their own stated pre-delivery procedure. This makes it doubly important that Warco are invited to be 100% involved in any checks and rectifications. If another supplier, then it depends on what claims they make about checks, etc.

              I speak from experience in the warranty dept of a major manufacturer. Hope this helps

              Cheers, Tim

              #620516
              Tim Stevens
              Participant
                @timstevens64731

                A Q for Jason – can you explain what is the distinction you make between a brushless motor (for a lathe) and a 3-phase motor with inverter?

                I am aware that a brushless motor can be made for other phase details that three – but I'm sure that is not the factor in question here.

                I was thinking (until today) that the two descriptions which you distinguish here are just different ways of saying the same thing.

                Regards – Tim

                PS my Colchester has a motor without brushes and is run from an inverter via three wires of different colours (none of which is earth).

                Edited By Tim Stevens on 10/11/2022 15:57:59

                #620533
                JasonB
                Moderator
                  @jasonb

                  Tim, it's not so much the technical distinction so much as people being wary of "brushless" equiped machines.

                  Many still class them as no different to early far eastern offerings that may have go a bad reputation and think they will go pop as soon as you look at them and therefor prefer the inverter and AC motor route

                  Many are wary of possible problems with control boards and being tied in to really having no option than to replace like with like if they fail .At least with an inverter driven item it's relatively easy to get another generic inverter and replace.

                  In a similar vein the brushless motors will likely have to be replaced with a spare from the supplier as they are not so easy to come by and as a flange or foot mount motor that can be easily had and swapped if the Brushless motor gives up the ghost. The additional wiring for speed sensors etc that the brushless motors tend to have would need to match that of the board. Typically 9 wires to a brushless motor found on these machines.

                  dsc02186.jpg

                  Then we come to usability and getting the best out of the motor, Despite what different specs Amadeal have on their own site their brushless 250 has two speed ranges approx 50-1000 and 100- 2000rpm. Whereas the Warco has something like 30-500 and 120-2000rpm. From that you can see that for the same speeds in low range the Warco's motor will tend to be running faster and nearer to it's optium speed which means you won't suffer as much the loss of performance due to running the motor at less than ideal speed so less chance of stalling the lathe when turning larger diameters at slower speeds.

                   

                  Edited By JasonB on 10/11/2022 17:14:13

                  #620540
                  Mick B1
                  Participant
                    @mickb1

                    Jason,

                    Stalling at low speeds isn't a disadvantage. It's saved me a few broken tools and damaged workpieces on tricky work with small clearances and high collision risks. I gather you have to hit the stop button sharpish to avoid electronic damage, but in 7+ years' regular use I've never had a problem of any sort in that category.

                    #620544
                    JasonB
                    Moderator
                      @jasonb

                      I have the lathe so it will slip it's belt. The mills have a very good trips, almost too good. Neither results in current still going to the motor when it is not rotating maybe that is why I have not had problems with motors or boards in 15yrs of ownership and they do get used.

                      It can also be a disadvantage when you can't cut at the right speed for the cutter diameter/material for example having to run a HSS slitting saw at 50% or more over the ideal cutting speed may shorten it's life. Or having to take very shallow cuts at fine feed when turning a large diameter part on the lathe particularly if you are of the HSS turning tools are the only way school of thought.

                      #620546
                      Jelly
                      Participant
                        @jelly
                        Posted by JasonB on 10/11/2022 17:12:23:

                        Posted by Tim Stevens on 10/11/2022 15:55:36:

                        A Q for Jason – can you explain what is the distinction you make between a brushless motor (for a lathe) and a 3-phase motor with inverter?

                        Tim, it's not so much the technical distinction so much as people being wary of "brushless" equiped machines.

                        I was under the impression that "Brushless" refers to a Electrically Commutated DC Motor whilst a "3-Phase Motor" would be generally taken to as referring to an Asynchronous Induction Motor.

                        I suppose that the inverter drive (which is rectifying an AC input to DC then chopping it up with rapid switching to make a facsimile of a sine wave to produce the 3-phase AC output) is powering the 3-Phase offering does make the practical difference less clear; as it's doing a similar thing to create the waveform as the Control Board for the Brushless Motor is doing to "Electronically Commutate".

                        In practical terms the big differences are:

                        If you have a 3-phase motor:

                        • you can put a Red CEEForm (Commando) plug on it and it will run off mains 3 phase (or a converter supply) just like that, because it's a native AC motor.
                        • this also means that it's independent of the inverter used to supply it in a single-phase system, because it can use anything which gives a 20-400Hz three phase output (older motors are nominal 50 or 60 Hz but newer motors designed since the dawn of VFD's are usually rated to run between 20-400 without faults developing).
                        • it's a standardised interchangeable product in it's own right, which is widely available everywhere, with a solid secondhand market, but comparatively expenisive new.
                        • They last forever (life expectancy in the region of 130,000 hours of operation with new bearings every 25,000 hours, compared to a life expectancy of around 10,000 hours for a brushless motor).
                        • They're cheaper at high power outputs (£295 for a 7.5kW induction motor vs £3,091 for a 7.5kW brushless motor).

                        If you have a brushless motor:

                        • you need to have the correct control board and motor driver, in operable condition, for the specific model of motor, or it can't run and those electrical elements are not interchangeable parts so compatibility and manufacturer support become an issue.
                        • whilst some standardisation exists, especially at the lower cost end of the market they have a tendency to be proprietary, which can lead to supply chain issues if you have to replace it.
                        • there are a range of different speeds and speed-torque characteristics available, and you can select an appropriate model from a manufacturer's range to suit your exact use case (including picking one with embedded sensors which can be read to provide feedback to other systems as a cheaper alternative to a position/step sensor or servo for some NC/CNC uses).
                        • they're generally somewhat cheaper at the smaller end of the size range (£113 for a 1kW brushless vs £178 for a 1kW Induction motor, with the differential going up much higher in favour of brushless as the power goes down)

                         

                        So there's not a clear winner, just things which make both options more or less suitable for different users and machines, with induction being a natural fit for high-power or long runtime, and brushless a better fit for high speeds or reduced cost in low power applications.

                        In a Colchester lathe like Tim's the induction motor would be the only sane choice on cost grounds (I'm not sure what lathe Tim has exactly, but even on AliExpress a brushless motor suitable for a Student at 2.2kW is exceeding the price for an induction motor from a UK supplier).

                        Edited By Jelly on 10/11/2022 18:40:23

                        #620651
                        Hugh Stewart-Smith 1
                        Participant
                          @hughstewart-smith1
                          Posted by JasonB on 10/11/2022 12:10:18:

                          Posted by Hugh Stewart-Smith 1 on 09/11/2022 20:54:19:

                          As for 'spec.', could you enlighten me as to how we differ from the OP's model? Apart from the colour, that is and that ours is 750mm between centres as opposed to 550mm Incidentally we do also more complete packages for several of our machines which I believe you weren't aware of (reference to an older thread on this topic) Best wishes, Hugh

                          Hugh does your machine not have a brushless motor where as the Warco has an AC 3-phase motor and inverter. From many postings on the forum I would say a lot of people favour the inverter option over brushless and are willing to pay more for that option.

                          Your 135rpm minimum speed may also put people off as Warco's 30rpm would be less but clenching when threading.

                          Also not sure why you list it as a 250 x 750 (10x22) and you may want to alter what ctrs come with the machine as MT5 inti MT4 won't go neither will MT3 into MT2. wink 2

                          Edited By JasonB on 10/11/2022 12:28:38

                          Jason, thank you for pointing out the typos, we've corrected those. We do actually have the 10×22 arriving in January.

                          With regard to the two different lathes, I was actually comparing like-for-like as Warco do offer a version with a brushless motor and I still maintain the substantial saving with our offering £250). The difference in price between our brushless motor version and the Warco 250V with the AC motor with inverter is £700 with ours the cheaper.

                          The debate goes on about brushless versus AC/inverter motor with weight being mentioned. We've just weighed a 250 brushless motor – 3kg with a 290 AC motor at 19Kg. The wiring is also simple with the brushless electronics as the control board has spade connectors – petty but worth mentioning. We've also had a customer who had considerable difficulty setting the parameters on a replacement inverter which was causing problems with running his secondhand bought Amadeal lathe. Sorted with help from Weiss.

                          Best wishes, and kind regards, Hugh

                          #620667
                          SillyOldDuffer
                          Moderator
                            @sillyoldduffer
                            Posted by Jelly on 10/11/2022 18:30:16:

                            Posted by JasonB on 10/11/2022 17:12:23:

                            Posted by Tim Stevens on 10/11/2022 15:55:36:

                            A Q for Jason – can you explain what is the distinction you make between a brushless motor (for a lathe) and a 3-phase motor with inverter?

                            Tim, it's not so much the technical distinction so much as people being wary of "brushless" equiped machines.

                            I was under the impression that "Brushless" refers to a Electrically Commutated DC Motor whilst a "3-Phase Motor" would be generally taken to as referring to an Asynchronous Induction Motor.

                            That's my understanding too, and the main physical difference is the way the rotor is magnetised.

                            A typical 3-phase motor has a stator with three windings and a solid rotor with shorted copper straps running end to end. When the stator is energised, creating a rotating magnetic field, currents are induced in the straps, causing a magnetic field in the rotor late compared to the stator, so the rotor spins trying to catch up. RPM is related to the AC frequency except the rotor slips so the motor is asynchronous. Many advantages, notably simple reliability. but power is 'wasted' generating the magnetic field in the rotor, and doing so by induction across an air gap. It's possible to do better.

                            A brushless motor also has a stator with three windings, but the rotor's magnetic field is provided by permanent magnets. Thus no power is wasted by induced currents and the motor is synchronous. This type is relatively new on the scene because they depend on powerful permanent magnets that can take heat. Not easy – although super-magnets were invented in the late 1970s, they took nearly 30 years to become affordably bullet proof.

                            Early brushless motors with older magnet technology couldn't compete with 3-phase induction motors because the magnets weren't powerful or permanent enough, plus the electronics needed to drive them were expensive in 1970! Now good affordable super-magnets and electronics are available, brushless are supplanting 3-phase induction motors in many applications. In comparison brushless are lighter, more reliable, more efficient, and have better power, torque and speed control characteristics.

                            Another difference is 3-phase induction motors prefer to be powered with something approaching a sine wave, which limits how much oomph they can take. Brushless are powered by DC pulses with a higher power density. In the graph, the area coloured green is the additional power delivered by a square wave compared with a sine wave, about double:

                            sinevssq.jpg

                            Dave

                            #620670
                            Tim Stevens
                            Participant
                              @timstevens64731

                              It seems we have another confusing term, or two, to add to my list.

                              Brushless doesn't just mean it's got no brushes, it means it also runs on DC.

                              And the drive for my lathe, which has a brushless 3-phase motor, is not called brushless, but an Induction Motor – an expression which actually covers almost all electric motors, from Faraday onwards, and tells us very little to distinguish one type of motor from another. It is fortunate indeed that electricians don't write dictionaries.

                              It seems that it is all a plot to prevent people who try to speak and write accurately, so they can be understood, even by those whose English is a second or third language, from succeeding. Well done, I say – but when I say well I mean a deep hole with water in, and done is what you call toast when it is brown.

                              Cheers, Tim

                              #620680
                              Anonymous
                                Posted by Tim Stevens on 11/11/2022 17:27:22:

                                Brushless doesn't just mean it's got no brushes, it means it also runs on DC.

                                In my day, brushless motors were properly called "brushless dc motors" …you wouldn't have expected an ac motor to have brushes.

                                #620681
                                JasonB
                                Moderator
                                  @jasonb

                                  I suppose it all depends on who you are speaking to or writing for as to whether they will understand you. I would say most people under 30 will take a brushless motor a being what gives their drone, RC model, CNC router, etc better performance than a bog standard DC motor and that a 4S Lipo has nothing to do with weight loss.

                                  #620688
                                  Robert Atkinson 2
                                  Participant
                                    @robertatkinson2

                                    No electro magnetic motor will run with DC applied to its coils. Regardles of what the supply is, at least one of the coils musthave alternating current flowing through it to rotate. On a brushed DC motor (permanaent magnet or wound) the brushes do the switching. This makes it simplier to switch the rotor and have (in permanent magnet versions) the magnet in the fixed part. With solid state switching it is pointless to pass the current through slip-rings and brushes so the magnets go in the rotor. So the full name is "electronically commutated permanent magnet rotor DC motor". Brushless DC is easier. Lets not go down the rabbit hole of how stepper motors, permanent magnet AC motors and AC servo motors differ).

                                    There is nothing to stop you having a polyphase AC (sine or switched current) stator with a wound DC rotor. I've run a car alternator as a motor on 400Hz 3 phase with the rotor current cotrolling the maximum torque.
                                    The "universal" brushed motor is a form of this.
                                    There was a class of large AC machines used in aircraft systems that used a wound rotor carrying DC but no brushes. A small coil carrying DC was part of the stator and was coupled to a 3 phase winding on the rotor. There was also a rectifier on the rotor that converted the AC from that to DC for the main rotor winding.

                                    Robert.

                                    #620689
                                    Tony Pratt 1
                                    Participant
                                      @tonypratt1

                                      As usual we have drifted 'off topic', I personally don't care about a 'polyphase AC (sine or switched current) stator with a wound DC rotor. ' .

                                      Tony

                                      Edited By Tony Pratt 1 on 11/11/2022 19:40:14

                                      #620692
                                      Howard Lewis
                                      Participant
                                        @howardlewis46836

                                        Off topic or not, it is good that differences, and correct terminology is known;and more importantly used.

                                        Such discussions add to the reader's store of knowledge (This one has, to mine)

                                        Without precise description and identification,

                                        The question posed will ,be misunderstood by the well intentioned and knowledgeable, meaning that the questioner will receive responses which will not solve their problem, and even worse, possibly confuse them.

                                        Let us not forget that clarity in question,and the answer to it are important.

                                        Now; where were we?

                                        Howard

                                        #620693
                                        Michael Gilligan
                                        Participant
                                          @michaelgilligan61133
                                          Posted by Howard Lewis on 11/11/2022 20:03:31:

                                          […]

                                          Now; where were we?

                                          Howard

                                          .

                                          Discussing Rust

                                          MichaelG.

                                          #620703
                                          Howard Lewis
                                          Participant
                                            @howardlewis46836

                                            Yes, Rust on a new machine and drifted off into electric motors, and their semantics

                                            Howard

                                            #620705
                                            Anonymous

                                              … but was it delivered corrosion (DC) or acquired corrosion (AC) and do you need a brush to remove it?

                                              #620713
                                              John McCulla
                                              Participant
                                                @johnmcculla
                                                Posted by Peter Greene 🇨🇦 on 11/11/2022 21:47:09:

                                                … but was it delivered corrosion (DC) or acquired corrosion (AC) and do you need a brush to remove it?

                                                Hahaha! Well done sir, you've tied that all in nicely!

                                                I'm still in communication with Warco, they gave me an apology and offered an amount of credit to spend with themselves if I keep the lathe, however I felt the amount was a bit low, so I've asked for a higher amount, or else a replacement lathe. I'll let you know what happens.

                                                #620723
                                                Sakura
                                                Participant
                                                  @sakura

                                                  If all new Warco lathes come coated in preservative, why didn't this one? Two possibilities spring to my mind – ex demo or returned machine. Not a new machine in either of those possibilities.

                                                  #620729
                                                  jaCK Hobson
                                                  Participant
                                                    @jackhobson50760

                                                    The rust seems cosmetic only – very little practical impact on performance. I had something similar (cosmetic) on my mill which I soon forgot. It would have been a huge bother for me to return the mill. I'm happy with the £50 credit I was offered (without negotiation).

                                                    My experience is also that Warco should try and keep you happy… the lathe is just the start of the expenditure.

                                                    However I have huge sympathy for the few reputable importers that we have – with supply, prices, and exchange rates fluctuating so wildly it must be a worrying time at the moment for them to be confident they can stay in business. So personally I'm happy to compromise to help out the supplier for pure cosmetic issues (even if that implies I subsidising those who are not so happy to compromise).

                                                    Do Amadeal/Arc/Warco/chester hobby actually make much money over last couple of years? I suppose I could look that up at companies house. Or they could tell us while they are engaged! That might inform how much we should compromise. I was getting very frustrated at one point in lockdown where all machine tools were out of stock – it would be terrible if that was a more permanent problem!

                                                    Edited By jaCK Hobson on 12/11/2022 09:53:20

                                                    #620730
                                                    jimmy b
                                                    Participant
                                                      @jimmyb

                                                      John,

                                                      It could be worth pushing for tooling etc rather than a credit/refund?

                                                      For what it's worth, I had hassle with my Chester Crusader when I got that. The upset soon fades once you start cutting metal!

                                                      Good luck.

                                                      Jim

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