Rust on New Lathe

[Hugh Stewart-Smith 1Participant @hughstewart-smith1]

Posted by Pete. on 09/11/2022 01:48:43:

Posted by Hugh Stewart-Smith 1 on 08/11/2022 23:24:24:

hello John, it's possible that the lathe has been around in their store for some time and without having been well coated in grease. We've had two milling machines in stock from July 2021 date of manufacture with rust spots on the table, so I've been busy with 280, 400 then 800 grit wet and dry paper. The sea air on the way from China probably doesn't help.

I've sent a PM to you – regards – Hugh – Amadeal Ltd

Attacking the ground surfaces on a new machine with abrasive paper doesn't seem like good practice in my opinion, are these machines sold at knock down cost and the customer informed about abrasives taken to parts of the machine?

I'd rather the rust was left in place so I can judge properly if I would purchase it.

I take your point Pete, but as we sell such machines at up to £300 or so cheaper than elsewhere it wouldn't be economical to replace the table, the only other option. In this instance the rust is minimal , almost cosmetic with no pitting and with a lot of elbow grease as opposed to factory applied grease! We do also sell 'shop soiled' or refurbished machinery occasionally.

Hugh

Amadeal

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Is this a Warco or Amadeal machine? I am guessing the first post on the thread was misleading?

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by not done it yet on 09/11/2022 09:07:04:

Is this a Warco or Amadeal machine? I am guessing the first post on the thread was misleading?

.

I think you should have another guess

MichaelG.

[Steve NeighbourParticipant @steveneighbour43428]

Hi John,

Any updates on this issue ?

I would concur having purchased the same machine from Warco back in 2019, that on delivery it was plastered (and I mean absolutely covered) in a very sticky gooey 'grease' that took ages to thoroughly clean off with a solvent cleaner.

I completely dismantled down to almost every component, cleaned, fettled, oiled/greased and re-assembled, and so far the machine has exceeded my expectations and has proved to be very accurate and reliable.

These Lathes are a generic type and offer good quality and specifications, almost all are made by the Weiss Group in Nanjiing, China and shipped worldwide as many different brands and colours such as Warco, Amadeal, Chester, Precision Mathews etc.

I would certainly NOT accept the one you have in that condition and ask that Warco either:- replace like for like with a brand new one OR give a full refund so you can order a nice shiny new one from MEW site sponsor Amadeal !!! (I have no affiliation btw)

Steve

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

It looks like light rust to me too, but from the photos it's mostly on parts of the prismatic bed that don't matter!

This lot is under the chuck where the saddle never goes:

And this patch is at the tailstock end; no effect on the tailstock which runs on the opposite prism, and unlikely to effect the saddle unless it's taking a very long cut:

The bit to worry about is on the centre of the front prism which aligns the saddle in a normal position.

My take:

• This amount of rust on a second-hand lathe wouldn't worry me – it wouldn't effect the accuracy of the lathe and could be tidied up with a quick gentle clean. Rub down with an oily rag maybe. A China Basher would find this level of damage completely unacceptable, whilst being completely happy to restore a badly rusted Adept that wasn't much cop brand new in 1925!
• But this is a new lathe. Personally I don't expect perfection from machine tools costing less than a sixth as much as the professional equivalent, but I would be worried that this one has been damaged in transit. (Michael noticed what look like water droplets in the first photo: maybe the box was caught in the recent heavy rain.) So I'd check it runs correctly and have a good look for other problems. If nothing else is found, I think the minimum hassle route is to clean the rust off.

The kind of Model Engineer you are makes a difference! It's a hobby to be enjoyed, and some find it important for tools to be in tip top condition. At one extreme lie the "Fusspots", folk with gleaming workshops full of neatly organised brand-name tooling, and a Myford Super 7 dated accurately from it's serial number, and restored accurately to the exact colour used in 1951. Possibly no actual work is done, the workshop is enjoyed in it's own right. At the other extreme are "Slobs" like me. My workshop is a mess and I care little about my tools unless they fail to do what I want of them. My enjoyment comes from making practical things and learning to make them, everything I do is 'good enough' and rarely needs to be well-made.

A hobby workshop should match the personality of it's owner. If John tends towards being a 'fusspot', then this is an emotional upset and he should contact Warco even if the problem is only a bit of easily fixed light surface rust. If John tends to being a 'slob' and just wants to get on with cutting metal, the best course is to make sure nothing else is wrong, clean the worst of the rust off, and put her to work.

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 09/11/2022 10:22:04

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

I couldn’t agree less, Dave

1. My Myford is currently dismantled, but it will never be restored to concours d’elegance condition … it is simply a tool.
2. The rusty Warco is a new purchase and [whatever its design or manufacturing failings, if any] should have been delivered by Warco in new condition.

MichaelG.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Amadeal seem to be blowing their own trumpet a lot. I thought that was banned.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

As another Warco WM250V owner I'm broadly in agreement with Dave. Handsome is as handsome does. I was and am very happy with my Warco, but mine came neither bare and rusty nor thickly covered in chicken fat. The bedways carried a light, clear(ish) grease that was readily wiped off with a rag and white spirit.

I wouldn't be scared of using green scotchbrite and WD40 on that rust, at least on a trial basis on the worst bit on the far flat chuck-end bed shear. I think you'd work all day without abrading a tenth off the bearing surface (even if it mattered there), but you might find the rust vanishes like scotch mist after a dozen strokes. Nevertheless it shouldn't be there on a new machine.

I'd want to know what the darkish out-of-focus marks on the chuck body are – mine still shines like silver after more than 7 years regular use, I've scotchbrited winter garage rust off it more than once, and it can still hold true within tenths.

It's your decision of course, but I'd say Warco ought to sort those issues in a way that's minimal hassle for you – maybe a partial refund if you can bring the machine to good working nick with a little work? I'm anything but workshop-proud, but I'd sooner any rubs and botches on my machinery were part of my story than anybody else's.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Hugh Stewart-Smith 1 on 09/11/2022 14:22:35:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 09/11/2022 11:14:59:

I couldn’t agree less, Dave

2. The rusty Warco is a new purchase and [whatever its design or manufacturing failings, if any] should have been delivered by Warco in new condition.

MichaelG.

especially when it's £300 dearer than an equivalent competitors model!

Hugh

Amadeal Ltd

Hugh don't forget to add in the cost of a 4-jaw, fixed steady, traveling steady and a faceplate to your price as Warco include those items which brings the price about the same as you bare bones one from Amadeal. So yours is not really equivalent. in spec and items included

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

Ah yes, "pre delivery inspection", from your friendly supplier, where would we be without it ?

I found three pieces of chewed up screws floating around the spindle of my Lux milling machine, bought new, and only found when I set about correcting something else. I assume they were there from new since there is no place they could have come from, yet they were not noticed during "pre delivery to customer", or in my case, collection.

I felt bad about throwing them out, after having them for so long. !

Perhaps "inspection " means shaking the machine to see if any bits fall off ?

[Steve NeighbourParticipant @steveneighbour43428]

Posted by larry phelan 1 on 09/11/2022 18:42:31:

Perhaps "inspection " means shaking the machine to see if any bits fall off ?

Probably more like "lift the box to see if it seems heavy enough to confirm it is 'likely' there is a machine inside"

Interestingly it clearly states on the Warco website

• Every Warco lathe is fully run and tested by a qualified member of our team before leaving our premises, and is supplied with an individual accuracy test report.

Irrespective of whether I was a "fusspot" or "slob" as characterised by SOD, I'd be requesting either:

1. A discount (partial refund)

OR

1. A replacement machine that is in 'brand new' condition

[Anonymous]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 09/11/2022 10:18:28:

It looks like light rust to me too, but from the photos it's mostly on parts of the prismatic bed that don't matter!This lot is under the chuck where the saddle never goes:

If the rust is only where the saddle (et al) never goes, wouldn't that suggest a used machine?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Peter, maybe SOD has not worked out that if you remove the tool box then the saddle can get closer to the chuck than 12" Back of the bed won't see the saddle or tailstock but front will see the saddle

[Hugh Stewart-Smith 1Participant @hughstewart-smith1]

Posted by JasonB on 09/11/2022 15:53:47:

Posted by Hugh Stewart-Smith 1 on 09/11/2022 14:22:35:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 09/11/2022 11:14:59:

I couldn’t agree less, Dave

2. The rusty Warco is a new purchase and [whatever its design or manufacturing failings, if any] should have been delivered by Warco in new condition.

MichaelG.

especially when it's £300 dearer than an equivalent competitors model!

Hugh

Amadeal Ltd

Hugh don't forget to add in the cost of a 4-jaw, fixed steady, traveling steady and a faceplate to your price as Warco include those items which brings the price about the same as you bare bones one from Amadeal. So yours is not really equivalent. in spec and items included

Jason, I beg to differ. I've totted up the retail price of our 250 lathe together with the 4 items that you mention and we are actually c£250 cheaper at £2104. That, I think you would agree is a considerable saving. As for 'spec.', could you enlighten me as to how we differ from the OP's model? Apart from the colour, that is and that ours is 750mm between centres as opposed to 550mm Incidentally we do also more complete packages for several of our machines which I believe you weren't aware of (reference to an older thread on this topic) Best wishes, Hugh

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by Steve Neighbour on 09/11/2022 19:02:05:

Interestingly it clearly states on the Warco website

• Every Warco lathe is fully run and tested by a qualified member of our team before leaving our premises, and is supplied with an individual accuracy test report.

Almost from the beginning of my acquaintance with machine tools, I've assumed these sorts of statements mean the machine is checked in the factory it's made in. Based on my experience of buying a Warco mill, that's certainly where my accuracy report was issued, unless a guy called Zhang Hua who signed off my accuracy report works at Warco's UK HQ.

To me it stands to reason that this is the way things are done, and I've not much objection to it, apart from the slightly misleading impression it may give to the unwary.

What really matters to me is how a supplier deals with problems owners may encounter with machines that are still under warranty, and particularly newly purchased machines.

Edited By Bill Phinn on 09/11/2022 21:08:55

[John McCullaParticipant @johnmcculla]

Thanks for all the replies everyone, sorry I haven't had time to reply to them all in greater detail. They've been really helpful though and are very much appreciated.

As instructed by Warco I cleaned it up with some scotchbrite this evening, and have attached photos of the result. While the rust is gone, and it feels smooth to the touch, there is still a visible mark. Communications are ongoing.

Hugh, thanks for your PM, I will reply properly to it in the next few days when I have a bit more time and know what is happening.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by John McCulla on 09/11/2022 22:26:13:

As instructed by Warco I cleaned it up with some scotchbrite this evening, and have attached photos of the result. While the rust is gone, and it feels smooth to the touch, there is still a visible mark. Communications are ongoing.

Good result. Now get on and make some swarf.

Ketan

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Steve Neighbour on 09/11/2022 10:15:00:

These Lathes are a generic type and offer good quality and specifications, almost all are made by the Weiss Group in Nanjiing, China and shipped worldwide as many different brands and colours such as Warco, Amadeal, Chester, Precision Mathews etc.

Steve

I would respectfully like to make a small correction to your comments Steve. These are a generic lathe (not made by SIEG group), but it is wrong to say that almost all of this type of lathe are made by Weiss. This is a myth spread by marketing people, and by people who have limited procurement knowledge. This lathe is made by at least four different factories, and the importers you mention do purchase these lathes from factories other than Weiss.

I politely request you to be aware of this information before spreading this information in the future.

Ketan at ARC

[Steve NeighbourParticipant @steveneighbour43428]

Posted by Ketan Swali on 10/11/2022 09:13:35:

Posted by Steve Neighbour on 09/11/2022 10:15:00:

These Lathes are a generic type and offer good quality and specifications, almost all are made by the Weiss Group in Nanjiing, China and shipped worldwide as many different brands and colours such as Warco, Amadeal, Chester, Precision Mathews etc.

Steve

I would respectfully like to make a small correction to your comments Steve. These are a generic lathe (not made by SIEG group), but it is wrong to say that almost all of this type of lathe are made by Weiss. This is a myth spread by marketing people, and by people who have limited procurement knowledge. This lathe is made by at least four different factories, and the importers you mention do purchase these lathes from factories other than Weiss.

I politely request you to be aware of this information before spreading this information in the future.

Ketan at ARC

I respectfully stand corrected by your greater knowledge. I have done extensive research, but obviously it was fake information

Steve

[John McCullaParticipant @johnmcculla]

Would it be fair to say then that the lathe should be fine going forward? In my head I have it that once metal has started to rust, it is more prone to it in the future. Is that true or am I imagining this? I think I'm going to struggle to get a replacement lathe from Warco, but I'll push for it if I feel it's merited. Obviously it would be simpler for everyone involved if I could keep this lathe.

[John Doe 2Participant @johndoe2]

I don't think it is remotely acceptable that a supposedly brand new product was supplied with paint and rust faults, no evidence of protective wax/grease, and traces of oil leaking. All faults point towards bad quality control, poor shipping process and storage in humid or wet conditions.

What have those conditions done to the components you cannot see – the motor, the switch-gear, the internal gears etc? And if the storage personnel and conditions were sub-standard; how else might the product have been damaged – might it have been roughly handled or otherwise abused ?

I would have absolutely refused to try to clean the rust off – it is not your problem, it is the supplier's. Sale of goods act : "product is not fit for purpose". The supplier must be given a chance to rectify the problem, either by supplying another machine or giving a full refund. I would also be asking to see the pre-delivery accuracy check report on the replacement machine, if you go down that route.

If you bought a new expensive watch, which on opening the box, had rust on the strap or the case, or a scratch on the face, you would take it straight back and demand a refund. Being engineers, we are good at – and like to solve – engineering problems, but that should not extend to correcting faults on brand new equipment.

I agree with others: that lathe does not look brand new, it has been supplied and returned already, or is damaged stock.

 

Edited By John Doe 2 on 10/11/2022 10:40:45

[egaParticipant @ega]

I see references to scotchbrite and have only a general idea of what is meant. "Scotch" is I believe a 3M trademark but I suspect that the term has become generic and can cover a variety of products and abrasive qualities.

I would welcome some enlightenment.

Good luck to the OP in resolving his problem.

[speelwerkParticipant @speelwerk]

Posted by John McCulla on 10/11/2022 10:10:27:

Would it be fair to say then that the lathe should be fine going forward? In my head I have it that once metal has started to rust, it is more prone to it in the future. Is that true or am I imagining this? I think I'm going to struggle to get a replacement lathe from Warco, but I'll push for it if I feel it's merited. Obviously it would be simpler for everyone involved if I could keep this lathe.

I would not except it, you have paid for a new lathe with no damage and this one has damage. They should either take this one back and replace it with a new one in pristine condition or you should get your money back, no ifs and buts. Niko.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by John McCulla on 10/11/2022 10:10:27:

Would it be fair to say then that the lathe should be fine going forward? In my head I have it that once metal has started to rust, it is more prone to it in the future. Is that true or am I imagining this? I think I'm going to struggle to get a replacement lathe from Warco, but I'll push for it if I feel it's merited. Obviously it would be simpler for everyone involved if I could keep this lathe.

Warco has a good reputation. It has been around longer than many traders, including ARC. Whilst it has been taken over by a new management team, to the best of my knowledge, the original warehouse/technical staff have been retained, and the team carries on providing the same level of service they are known for. Some may approve and some may not. That is just down to personal preference and experience.

Just check the innards for any signs of rust, and if the machine works as it is supposed to, you still have a years warranty should the electrics have a non-user related issue during this period. Re-packing and sending the machine back is an option you have, but what is there to say how different the replacement will be to meet your expectations?. Remember that it is a heavy machine. Looking at what you have done based on Warco's suggestion is a great result. It does not mean that a bare surface is more prone or less prone to rust in the future.

Bare surface on every machine is prone to rust, especially in winter. Regularly wiping the bare surfaces with light grade oil keeps the rust at bay. If you fail to protect the bare surface, the humidity/moisture in the air – especially in a cold garage type environment will generate surface rust. If you stay on this forum, you will see a few posts in the coming months on surface rust, protection aids etc..

At the end of the day, you make your own decision.

Ketan at ARC

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by ega on 10/11/2022 11:36:06:

I see references to scotchbrite and have only a general idea of what is meant. "Scotch" is I believe a 3M trademark but I suspect that the term has become generic and can cover a variety of products and abrasive qualities.

I would welcome some enlightenment.

Good luck to the OP in resolving his problem.

Correct!

[Author]

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