russian engine plan!

[Cyril BonnettParticipant @cyrilbonnett24790]

Some may like this, need an online translator.

 

http://hobbyport.ru/mk_other/models/6909_dlya_taymernyh_i_skorostnyh.htm

 

[Cyril BonnettParticipant @cyrilbonnett24790]

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

This looks like a job for Ramon?

Interesting concepts in porting and rear exhaust set up.

Would the body be cast?

The crankshaft looks a bit of a job to do though with the porting disc.

I also note the drawing is dated 1969.

 

Clive

Edited By Clive Hartland on 12/11/2011 10:50:11

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi,

 

Google does a fair translation here make interesting reading. It seems the project dates from a Russian model builder magazine from 1969. Vintage enough even for Ramon .

Best regards and enjoy,

Terry

 

P.S. your browser may try to block the redirection to another page, I think that it is safe to do so, it is just transferring you to the translated page.

 

T

Edited By Terryd on 12/11/2011 11:01:18

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

The crankcase is a casting with the galleries cast in, the crankshaft is seemingly nitrided and then ground.

Some very special treatment on other parts as well.

Also ‘Ageing’ on the castings was carried out, If you deep freeze them for a couple of days and then heat them up again, the stresses are relieved though on a casting this small I doubt its worth it.

Very interesting read as it seems a lot of them were made.

 

Clive

[Ramon WilsonParticipant @ramonwilson3]

Hi guy’s – just seen this post and find the subject most interesting.

 

My first thoughts – looking at the drawing before reading Terry’s translation link was that this was aimed at the FAI F2c Team Race side of the hobby – ‘AES’s domain – due mainly from the inverted intake and the type of drum induction drawn both of which are accepted TR engine set ups. The use of a glow plug in the 2.5cc class of TR engine is very definitely not however. The translation though a bit cryptic makes it clear enough that this was very much an FAI speed class motor.

 

At the time this engine was apparently designed, 1969, I was not long out of the Army and certainly not involved with anything as esoteric as rear exhaust systems – it would be a long time before I owned one of those – but I would hazard a good guess that this was pretty high spec for it’s time.

 

I don’t know when schneurle porting first came into use commercially but this features boost porting and the drum valve is carried over from TR development I’m sure

as I believe I’m correct in saying that the type of drum shown was first designed by Paul Bugl. This proved a big success in increasing power output to fuel consumption but that in turn lead to overheating of the conrod big end as the incoming fuel no longer flushed across that area but is drawn in straight up into the ports. Perhaps AES if he reads this can enlighten us a little more on this fact. There is some information on the MEN site somewhere on the Bugl drum – the tolerances of fit are quite something as I recall.

 

What also interests me is that the first part of the text is credited to Yuri Sirotkin. Sirotkin was an accomplished control line aerobatic pilot who designed a lovely model called the Spacehound. – I still have the plan which was published in the Aeromodeller after he won the World Championships but have never built it. However, some years back I was trying to find out about another stunt model he designed a photo of which is featured in the well known Ron Moulton Control Line Manual. As far as I’m aware the design of this particular model which appears to be much larger than the Spacehound and is very jet like with the undercarriage disguised within the underslung ‘jet engine pods’ had never been published in the western world. The fact that it’s in the manual predates 1969 which is the cut off point for the ‘Classic’ period of model which was my preferred area. My interest was trying to establish a provenance so that it could be used for competition. Researches eventually lead to the fact that ”Sirotkin was no longer involved with model flying and would not respond to any contact”. Ah well it’s now far too late to go over that old ground again as I’ve definitely hung up the old handle – my models are probably confined to the hangar wall for good now.

 

Thanks for your thoughts though that this might be for me – appreciated I assure you but not at this time I’m afraid – I will print off the drawings however – just in case

 

Another couple of weeks or so on the table engine then it is a start on another IC motor

 

Regards for now – Ramon

[DerryUKParticipant @derryuk]

 

<I don’t know when schneurle porting first came into use commercially>

Funnily enough Ron adds some detail about Schnurle on his excellent webste this month:

 

http://modelenginenews.org/

 

Derry.

[Richard ParsonsParticipant @richardparsons61721]

Cyril Google tool bar did an excellent job of translating the Russian Original. Here is a part of it.

HIGHLIGHTS FOR FLIGHT Among the many classes of flying models is dominated by motor model. This is primarily radio-controlled, aerobatics, speed, timer, racing, models of the original and “batutnye” model. For each class of engine are presented specific requirements. On the radio controlled, typically used maximum cubic capacity engines – with a working volume 10 cm 3 . Usually they are not very fast, but powerful, with a sufficiently large control range (maximum operating speed 12 thousand rev / min, the minimum – 3-4 thousand). The main requirement for such an engine – a stable operation over the entire range of regulation, from maximum speed to the lowest possible. In 1969, the Central Sports Club of aviation modeling engine designed for 10 TSSKLM radiomodeley. It was successfully tested and is currently under production. In the class aerobatic models use very different engine cubic capacity – 2.5 cm 3 to 7 … 8 cm 3 . They stand out from others in that when you use 70-80% of capacity. This mode of operation provides the unloaded engine idle up a long life. The main requirements for it – a stable operation at medium speed (9-10 K) and good acceleration. Production of engines for the flight model is most suitable “Flight”. In the Central Sports Club, a special aerobatic engine “Acrobat” (with a working volume of 7 cm 3 ), which withstood the most severe test for models of the leading athletes. On high-speed (and timer) models, the engine put in the most difficult conditions, because it works at maximum capacity. Creating a production engine for this class of models – extremely complicated matter. Suffice it to say that at all, without exception, all the world championships are the athletes or the engines of their own design, or serial samples subjected to a serious fine-tuning. Recently, in connection with the appearance of resonant devices the problem of creating high-speed engine rose especially sharply. No less a challenge than making the engine was its docking with the cavity and the duct system supply. If successful mating power engine speed increases up to a very impressive figure – about 1 liter. with. Liter (per 1 liter of working volume) capacity of the car “Volga” is only 28 liters. with., while the engine speed model, it is up to 400 liters. with. When you create a high-speed motor is necessary to solve many other problems: the selection of materials to ensure minimal friction, providing a perfect gas dynamics of the operating cycle, the selection of propellers, etc. Some of our athletes leading role in the creation of high-speed engine owned by an athlete from Leningrad V. Natalenko. The greatest success he achieved at the last World Cup. Speaking on the engine of his own design, Natalenko took seventh place with a score of 241 km / hour. Took third place American athlete Roger Theobald was ahead of his only 2 km, showing 243 km / hour. The creation of the engines in our country are engaged in many enthusiasts. Particularly successful is doing in Kiev sports-racers – and Krasnorutskogo Babichev. At the May training camp before the championship of Europe, speaking on the new engine of their own design, they confidently took first place with a very good result – 4 min. 22 sec.

[jomacParticipant @jomac]

Hi. How do you down load or print out the drawings for this engine, I use Opera and saved the file and tried various types of files, unforturnatley none of them worked , nor did it print straight of the internet file, just blank pages with a header.

John Holloway.

PS Ramon, still have not started the Bolaero18, first because Ive been busy and second I dropped it and snapped of the carby needle, fixed that and whent back to making the furnace so that I can cast the crankcase for the David Anderson satilite engine (DA 1cc) every thing else is made, just need more time and energy for the crank case.

[Keith LongParticipant @keithlong89920]

Hi Jomac

Open the page with the drawings, position your cursor over one of the images (there are actually 3 drawings), right mouse click and then select” save image” from the drop down menu. I’ve saved them to my desktop by this route, and I can then open the saved images in “Irfanview” – no doubt other similar image viewers will work. Using the zoom function in Irfanview I can see all the dimensions etc and I think enough detail to work from. All the above is using Opera as the browser and Windows 7 as the operating system on a Toshiba netbook on a slow connection. Took less than 5 minutes end to end, writing this took longer!

Keith

Edited By Keith Long on 13/11/2011 12:08:16

[Richard ParsonsParticipant @richardparsons61721]

If you look at the bottom of the Russian Version on the right hand side there is a Hyperlink to ‘print engine plans’

They think of every thing. The site has several exciting things

Rdgs

Dick

Edited By Richard Parsons on 13/11/2011 12:58:44

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

If someone is going to make this Russian engine how are you going to get around the crankcase casting?

It has some very complicated galleries inside.

Will it be a lost wax method, from built up sections and then encased in the mould material?

I would be very interested in the method used.

 

Clive

[Ramon WilsonParticipant @ramonwilson3]

Hi John (H) , good to hear you are still up and about. I’m looking forward to hearing about your experiences with casting in due course

 

I have just highlighted each drawing, right clicked then saved them in My Pictures. Not sure how well they’ll print from there as I’m currently a bit snookered with an inactive printer (Still trying to get your copies done Terry D – hope to have it fixed tonight but failing that it may be a new one so bear with me)

 

Though the text begins by mentioning ‘Radio Control’ I ‘m sure that the reference to

“aerobatics, speed, timer, racing, models of the original and “batutnye” model.”

 

refer to control line classes. Perhaps ‘batutnye’ is where Google is not equipped with ‘Control Line’

 

The engine is not, without doubt, an RC motor. The rear exhaust points to a tuned exhaust system – possibly a pipe of conventional layout but then again maybe just a straight length of piped tuned to the rev band. I think that is what this passage refers to…

 

Recently, in connection with the appearance
of resonant devices the problem of creating high-speed engine rose
especially sharply. No less a challenge than making the engine was its
docking with the cavity and the duct system supply.

 

After my last post I began to wonder just when I first owned a commercially available rear exhaust motor and thoughts led to a Rossi 15 complete with pipe bought from Michaels Models in the late seventies but then I remembered there was an engine much earlier than that and only just a year or so after this Russian article was published- around ’70/’71. This engine was an OPS 60 water cooled RC motor which I fitted to a power boat but that was, at that time, quite a rare beast. It was extremely powerful with a rev band to match -20 odd thousand as I recall – it certainly used to sing when the pipe came in and the boat would noticeably leap forward in the water. Perhaps small beer by todays standards – the speed model on show at Ally Pally on the BMFA stand – world speed record holder in it’s class I believe – had a specially prepared 2.5cc engine rated at 40,000rpm.

 

I see from the info on MEN that Derry pointed us to that Super Tigre’s Garafoli patented a boost port system in 1962 so things obviously moved pretty quickly after. I also recall buying a Super Tigre G15 which was a very high performance engine in it’s day but this was side exhaust with a front intake offset to one side. (Bought that one from one of the local traders just outside the gates at Nee Soon Transit Camp in 1966. Any ex squaddies remember Nee Soon?)

 

To make this engine – not a project for the feint hearted I would say would require a cast case to do it to print and as Clive says probably lost wax at that.

 

It could be machined from solid with some compromises in the inner galleries which should not be too detrimental to performance providing the volumes were adequate and the cylinder porting unchanged but it would have to be made from some esoteric materials and to some pretty high tolerances to get the most out of such an engine. Maybe a toned down 5cc look a like ? I fancy the drum type valve I have to admit. Hmmmm well we’ll have to see

 

Sorry for going on but this raises some pretty prominent memories – I’d like to thank Cyril for bringing this to our attention for that too

 

Regards for now – Ramon

 

 

 

 

Edited By Ramon Wilson on 13/11/2011 16:45:01

[Jens Eirik Skogstad 1Participant @jenseirikskogstad1]

Posted by Ramon Wilson on 13/11/2011 16:41:46:

 

Though the text begins by mentioning ‘Radio Control’ I ‘m sure that the reference to

“aerobatics, speed, timer, racing, models of the original and “batutnye” model.”

 

refer to control line classes. Perhaps ‘batutnye’ is where Google is not equipped with ‘Control Line’

 

Regards for now – Ramon

 

 

 

 

Edited By Ramon Wilson on 13/11/2011 16:45:01

Here i will translate to russian since i am speaking russian so well due my wife

 

Radiocontrol model airplane = Радиоуправленые модель самолета

Line control model airplane = Кордовая модель самолета

 

As you can see the tolerance class in the plan of the engine is difference from ISO tolerance. The tolerance class was out of use after USSR collaps, after USSR era they are using ISO tolerance.

 

I can add here if you need what the letter in tolerance class means.

 

[jomacParticipant @jomac]

Richard and others, Hi, I right clicked the image, then save as, all files, I then opened Open Office ORG, which is better than Microsoft works, as it is updated all the time, also its FREE!!!, the image came up in the draw section of this program, I did a motor a few years ago, doing it this way, and then opened and exported into a CAD program, and modified the drawing, to suit. Unfortunatley I have forgotten what I did back then, as now Turbo cad needs a filter (which is hard for me to do), Draftsight also fails to recognize the file, So there are some clever people out there who can do this properly, maybe they can help us out. ????. I can save and modify the drawing with Open Office, but need more time to read the help files, so that it is workable.

John Holloway

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi John H,

 

There are various programs which convert bitmaps to Vector graphics. Most are expensive being aimed at the professional market, but a good, free, open source program (steep learning curve though) is Inkscape which is available here. You can also use Potrace (also free) to trace the bitmap for a scalable vector.   Once you have a scalable vector diagram from the bitmap you should be able to store it in a suitable format for your CAD program. Make sure that Open Office is saving the file as a jpeg as OO has it’s own terminology for some file types.

 

Hi Ramon,

 

Don’t worry about the articles, there is no particular hurry, I have to finish the refurb on my Stuart Beam first and that is likely to take a while as the boiler needs considerable work.

 

Best regards

 

Terry

Edited By Terryd on 20/11/2011 08:26:35

[Ramon WilsonParticipant @ramonwilson3]

Hi John, Terry.

 

I have no idea how to convert these drawings into something modifyable but can report that I have just printed off the drawings -as they are – using MS.

Because of ‘fitting to page’ however they are all over scale, particularly the needle valve parts but certainly give enough to work too – of course any annotation etc will have to rely on the good old red pen!

Strangely enough however the scale of the general arrangement appears to be roughly about a 5cc engine – well theres a coincidence

 

I’m not sure how to interpret the section A-A – as drawn -shown on the crankshaft. I’m pretty certain the disc is relieved between the outer faces for balance then the ring is shrunk or pressed on to retain the crankcase volume but if so the drawing doesn’t make that clear at all. Anyone else reading this differently?

A Super Tigre G21/46 has this feature. The ring is brass and it had a reputation of shedding the ring sometimes causing serious damage.
The normal cure for this was to remove the ring before it happens

 

Richard (Dick) – as a matter of interest have you noticed how short the crankcase area is over the shaft just infront of the rear bearing? I’ve not come across as much relief between bearings as this before but it does go to show that a ‘seal’ other than actual fit is not really required to maintain crankcase pressure.

 

In the meantine – back on the Waller valve gear – but not for too long

 

Regards for now – Ramon

 

PS No problem Terry – in actual fact just cured the printer problem this morning so you should get them this week.

 

Edited By Ramon Wilson on 20/11/2011 10:06:12

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