Roman Dodecahedron

[Charles LamontParticipant @charleslamont71117]

It’s obviously a paperweight. Oh, hang on, a papyrus or parchment weight.

[Adrian R2Participant @adrianr2]

I recall this being discovered before, conclusion then was that it was a survey instrument. Your apprentice wanders off to a nearby hill with a pole of known length, you observe him through an opposing pair of holes and according to which size is needed to match the complete pole you know how far away he is. Sounded plausible to me so the mystery is why it is a mystery again?

[Adrian R2]

On Adrian R2 Said:

I recall this being discovered before, conclusion then was that it was a survey instrument.

[…]

Sounded plausible to me so the mystery is why it is a mystery again?

Because that was only one of many hypotheses, as-yet unproven by demonstration:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_dodecahedron

 

The reason for my reviving it as a mystery was simply because a nice example has recently been well-photographed and is on public display.

We have to discuss things, or the forum will die …

I considered it a suitable topic for discussion.

MichaelG.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

You mean you remember the object too which I referred, and have found out what it was?

An archaeologist once showing a groups of us around an ellipse of standing-stones – the remains of a Neolithic tomb – spent a while careful examining the pillars that would have formed the entrance. She said sometimes they bear inscribed spirals, still visible despite millennia of weathering, but of course no-one can even guess what they meant.

She went to say that it is a very easy trap, guessing the purpose of some ancient object of no obvious use – often assuming it ritual or religious – and thinking we must be right. Instead of being honest and admitting we have no idea.

I suppose the latter takes some courage especially when you are the expert and your audience is the General Public or worse, common news hacks !

.

The Antikythera mechanism is thought some form of astronomical or calendar calculator thanks to very careful physical analysis and surviving Greek literature showing not it, but the knowledge and beliefs of its time.

.

The Roman dodecahedron is of unknown purpose and will be unless some Roman writings are found that specifically tell us – and even then might not answer the question fully. Thinking it a surveying tool is only from a modern observer discovering you might be able to use it as such – though Roman surveyors had various, simple but effective sighting techniques and evidently understood practical geometry. I don’t know if they understood trigonometry, but don’t ask me the sine of XIVº as my tables are all in these new-fangled Arabic numerals introduced to Britain as recently as Shakespeare’s time.

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That rotary “calculator” to which I referred, had us all baffled on here a few years ago, and I drew a blank with enquiries I made elsewhere. We still do not know its purpose or even if it is complete – yet it is only 100 years or so old. Hopefully someone will find an intact one still with instructions, or a trade advertisement or other concrete evidence to inform us all.*

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At the other end of the time scale are the spirals engraved in some Stone Age works, the awe-inspiring art in some French caves and a small stone circle dated to possibly Neanderthal construction found in a Spanish cave. The reasons for these are totally unknowable because we genuinely cannot possibly know these ancient peoples’ beliefs and social structures. Though where their graves are found the evidence suggests they careful to give their deceased comparable “after care” in their own ways, to that of our modern society… and ours does so in a variety of ways.

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We can credit our ancestors for having the same IQ, emotions, instincts and needs as us, as we have no reason not to, but we cannot and should not think for them!

 

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* I knew of someone who might shed light on it, but I don’t know his name. He collects vintage and antique slide-rules, measuring-rules, calculators, etc. and used to display them at events like the MSRVS Rally.

[Nigel Graham 2]

On Nigel Graham 2 Said:

You mean you remember the object too which I referred, and have found out what it was?

[…]

No, Nigel … that’s not what I meant

 

Yes, of course I remember the object … but technical puzzles have a broad spectrum of “amusement value”

The Antikythera Mechanism rated very high because we were trying to work-out how it was made, as well as to understand its purpose.

You circular calculator rated lower, because its manufacture was simple and obvious, so the only puzzle was to recognise its purpose.

I failed, and I think everyone failed, in that.

MichaelG.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

My wild guess as they have been found with hoards of coins is that it is a counting device, hence the five sides and blobs or ‘fingers’ matching a hand. Roman counting was based on V and X because all early peoples only had hands to help count.
You have a piece of string and start by attaching to a finger. As you count you loop round another finger and move on round.
With the dodecahedron eventually you get to sixty.
That is significant as the Sumerians from around 3000 BC established the base sixty counting system we still use today for time and angle calculations essential for astronomy. Astronomers and tax collectors were the only people who did much maths.

[Martin of WickParticipant @martinofwick]

If I were gambling man, I would take a punt on it being some sort of device for gaming. The Romans were enthusiastic gamblers, use of the six sided tesserae was common. The rounded projections would allow the dodecahedron to tumble well. I envisage a sort of proto roulette with the spaces in the dodecahedron filled by inserts (in wood or bone, hence degraded by age and now lost). These inserts might be changed or varied according to the game being played.

Possibly another reason they are found with hoards of cash!

 

[DiogenesParticipant @diogenes]

I’m with Bill Phinn; divination devices – I think it hard for many of us to comprehend the degree to which belief influenced the activities even of mundane daily life, let alone significant events or important decisions

– it’s taken a lot of ‘rubbing out’ – even my grandparents lived in a world still containing prohibitions and propitiations, some well-defined and others having lost all meaning..

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Letter in the paper this morning had the solution – it’s a spaghetti measure…

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

…. or, similarly to inverting a flower-pot over rhubarb, for forcing spaghetti-vine seedlings…

[Chuck TaperParticipant @chucktaper]

part of a musical instrument?

chromatic scale?

 

[Adrian R2Participant @adrianr2]

Mea culpa, apparently the surveying tool theory has been around since at least 1957 but as this lady says doesn’t stand up because of variations in size and lack of markings. She is doing her Ph.D on it, which put me in mind of the philosophers in HHGTTG who realise that they have a lifetime of punditry ahead while waiting for the ultimate computer to come up with the answer to the ultimate question.

https://www.dodecahedragirl.org/what

Go/no-go gauge for coinage? There has to be some reason why the holes are opposite and not just a flat sheet.

 

[Adrian R2]

On Adrian R2 Said:

 

https://www.dodecahedragirl.org/what

Go/no-go gauge for coinage? There has to be some reason why the holes are opposite and not just a flat sheet.

 

Which puts you straight back to the varying sizes issue in the link.

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

The sieve to be applied to any suggestions is can the proposed use be done with something simpler? If so you have to not only describe its purpose, but also why it is more complicated than necessary.

Martin C

[Dave Halford]

On Dave Halford Said:

On Adrian R2 Said:

 

https://www.dodecahedragirl.org/what

Go/no-go gauge for coinage? There has to be some reason why the holes are opposite and not just a flat sheet.

 

Which puts you straight back to the varying sizes issue in the link.

Different coins in different territories? I am speculating wildly, not making a serious suggestion, I’m happy to leave that to the learned historians and academics, ’nuff said.

[Chuck Taper]

On Chuck Taper Said:

part of a musical instrument?

chromatic scale?

 

On Nigel Graham 2 Said:

…. or, similarly to inverting a flower-pot over rhubarb, for forcing spaghetti-vine seedlings…

It is well known that spaghetti grows on trees, not vines, just Google Dimbleby spaghetti tree

[DiogenesParticipant @diogenes]

To take one particularly striking aspect of most of the illustrated examples – why is there (commonly) a ball on each corner?

As so many possess this feature it cannot be an insignificant detail, therefore it must be a significant one, and serve a purpose.

Why a ball, and not a ‘pillar’, post, or ‘capstan’ shape?

I know what I think the answer is, but interested in what others think..

 

 

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

What I think it is is a device for framing the constellations of the zodiac,” Dr Foyle said…
“If you look through them you can frame a view – much like a camera operator,” he said.

A dodecahedron found in Switzerland in 1982 also listed the names of the zodiac on each of the faces, Dr Foyle said.
“That’s what makes me think that’s what it is.”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-68935157

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Prepare for a little surprise about that Swiss one:

Yes, it’s a dodecahedron … but not ‘mainstream’ in the context of the mystery:

https://www.e-periodica.ch/cntmng?pid=zak-003:1985:42::425

I haven’t attempted a translation, but the illustrations are good, and there is a summary paragraph in English.

MichaelG.

[DiogenesParticipant @diogenes]

..I’m happy to see it, makes me believe more than ever that they are essentially ‘dice’ intended for augury.

Whilst I’m committing myself to a certain path, I also think that the holes present in some could have been provided to allow the insertion of further objects that would have been ‘thrown’ (and ejected or contained, one way up or another) at the same time.

A multifaceted scapula.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, maybe they were just  the latest and must have, “Art Deco” type of thing in its day, which only affluent people could afford, and the more affluent one was, could’ve had a bigger and more elaborate one, or perhaps they were a kind of Talisman of some sort.

Regards Nick.

[Chuck TaperParticipant @chucktaper]

found this site [https://www.romandodecahedron.com/the-hypothesis] (bit of a haul to read but…)

from within the above reference the following sketch. (item in London Museum)

 

[Michael Gilligan]

On Michael Gilligan Said:

Prepare for a little surprise about that Swiss one:

Yes, it’s a dodecahedron … but not ‘mainstream’ in the context of the mystery:

https://www.e-periodica.ch/cntmng?pid=zak-003:1985:42::425

I haven’t attempted a translation, but the illustrations are good, and there is a summary paragraph in English.

MichaelG.

That’s a very interesting document, Michael.

The Swiss dodecahedron is obviously quite different (in appearance and presumably purpose) from the open ones that we’re seeing in the news.

From the text:

“Our object, if it doesn’t relate directly to them, doesn’t fail to recall the series of open Gallo-Roman dodecahedra adorned with balls that have much intrigued certain scholars since the end of the last century. It has in common with this group of discoveries its shape, of course, that it dates to around the 3rd and 4th centuries, and its area of geographical distribution situated in the northern Alps…On the other hand, neither the material, nor the decoration, nor the fabrication is similar…Given the shape of the object, and its signs of wear on the edges and the faces, we can see only one plausible [use] (apart from a rather heavy amulet): a die..”

“We think that at this point it is important to remain prudent, to not come to hasty conclusions, and to hope for possible information in the future that other discoveries may be able to bring us.”

 

 

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