Robert Atkinson will be proud of me :)

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

I bought a rather nice, and usefully long ‘kettle lead’ today … from the Charity Shop

Resplendent  in Orange, and complete with a recent PAT sticker.

Having made it very clear to the shop assistant that I was happy to purchase said item … I then explained to her why it should not have passed testing.

The manager was called to witness this, and the offending item was duly photographed for discussion with the testing-chap.

The fault was that the Live and Neutral pins on the 13A plug were full Brass.

… Two ladies educated, and perhaps a life saved.

MichaelG.

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

Not sure how long the previous spec for all brass pins, being the only approved spec for a 13 amp plug. Maybe 60 years or more?

Now that type of plug is regarded as being highly dangerous. Took an inordinate time to realise this!

Andrew.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

The really astonishing thing is that the whole cable assembly appears to be new and unused … I will take some photos tomorrow.

MichaelG.

[Andrew Tinsley]

On Andrew Tinsley Said:

Not sure how long the previous spec for all brass pins, being the only approved spec for a 13 amp plug. Maybe 60 years or more?

Now that type of plug is regarded as being highly dangerous. Took an inordinate time to realise this!

Andrew.

A quick search suggests 1984
Can’t be bothered to root through all the legislation, but it sounds about right from work
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1994/1768/regulation/3/made

Reasonable photos on this site, including non-fused plugs etc.
https://www.fatallyflawed.org.uk/BS1363/index.html

This was one attached to something I bought a couple of years ago, assured it was working fine and PAT tested.
I had to use a Warrington screwdriver to access the “fuse”

Bill

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

This is a handy reference:

https://www.pat-testing-training.net/articles/charity-shops-pat.php

MichaelG.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, to say plugs with non-insulated live and neutral pins are dangerous, is not strictly true, they are considered to be unsafe for use by children and people with slim fingers, as it is possible for them to be able to touch both live and neutral pins upon inserting and withdrawing these plugs, when the pins are still in contact with the electrical supply. If they are used in a socket that has a switch on the live side, the risk is almost eliminated, as long as the switch is used  for disconnection the live side, before inserting or withdrawing the plug, and I would think they are more unsafe for use in unswitched sockets.

If you have anything with these plugs fitted before the regulation was changed, there is no obligation for you to change them, and there is nothing to say you can’t fit one to your own appliance that you use, but if you sell or give it away with one on, you may find you are breaking the law. You may also find yourself in trouble if others in your household, suffer injury or death while using these plugs. Sockets with switch or not, can still be unsafe to children and adults, as they can have a screwdriver of something similar, poked into the earth slot, to open the shutter to the live slots, which would allow other objects to be poked into the live slots, so these in themselves are not 1009% safe.

Regards Nick.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Further to Nick’s point about access being relatively simple … I was very interested to read this page:

https://www.pat-testing-training.net/articles/socket-covers.php

MichaelG.

[Andrew Tinsley]

On Andrew Tinsley Said:

Not sure how long the previous spec for all brass pins, being the only approved spec for a 13 amp plug. Maybe 60 years or more?

Now that type of plug is regarded as being highly dangerous. Took an inordinate time to realise this!

Andrew.

Not an example of H&S gone mad though!

The British square pin plug first appeared in 1933 and, being superior to the alternatives in several ways, was adopted as part of a major upgrade of British electrical practice in 1947. The upgrade gave us rings, shuttered sockets, and square pin plugs.  The plug is part of this well-designed system.

The 1933 plug and socket was a triumph:  the design is still widely recognised the world over as ‘best plug’.   Main disadvantages are it being physically big and, when unplugged, the beasts lie on their backs, pins up, and hurt when stood on!

The 1933 version isn’t completely electrically safe.  Accident stats after 1947 showed a small number of people were being electrocuted by the BS1363 plug.  The victims were folk with fingers small enough to get round the back and touch the live pin when pulling the plug.  Though adults are safe, the 1947 plugs are lethally dangerous to children!  The danger slowly emerged from the accident statistics as square 3-pin plugs became common, and in 1984 the standard was changed to fix the problem.  All that was necessary was to partly shroud the live and neutral pins.

After 1984 new installations had to have the upgraded plug.  As unshrouded pins aren’t that dangerous, they were allowed to gradually disappear.   Still loads of them about.  I have several and haven’t bothered to explicitly upgrade them because there are no children in my house!   The plugs would have to be replaced if the equipment was sold on or I had grandchildren.

Interestingly this 1943 Dorman and Smith design protected the live:

The D&S plug didn’t catch on probably because it has other flaws, for example, the live pin is the fuse.  I guess the fuse/pin combo is weak compared with a solid pin, more expensive to make than a BS1363 fuse cartridge, and harder to change too.   A BS1363 plug is cheaper to make and it isn’t difficult to change the fuse.

Dave

 

 

 

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi MichaelG, yes I’ve read about the safety factor of those child socket protectors before.

Regards Nick.

[Clive IndiaParticipant @cliveindia]

A wonderful opportunity for someone to demonstrate how clever they are.

[Clive India]

On Clive India Said:

A wonderful opportunity for someone to demonstrate how clever they are.

Should I simply take that as a personal insult, Clive ?

… or would you care to elaborate ?

MichaelG.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

You can still get the round pin 2A plug tops with uninsulated pins. I presume contact is broken before there is enough of a gap for even a child to get their pinkies into. As the sockets are generally unswitched there is more chance of a 5A lighting circuit being left switched on when someone unplugs one of these.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

As promised:

.

[Nicholas Farr]

On Nicholas Farr Said:

Hi, to say plugs with non-insulated live and neutral pins are dangerous, is not strictly true, they are considered to be unsafe for use by children and people with slim fingers, as it is possible for them to be able to touch both live and neutral pins upon inserting and withdrawing these plugs, when the pins are still in contact with the electrical supply. If they are used in a socket that has a switch on the live side, the risk is almost eliminated, as long as the switch is used  for disconnection the live side, before inserting or withdrawing the plug, and I would think they are more unsafe for use in unswitched sockets.

If you have anything with these plugs fitted before the regulation was changed, there is no obligation for you to change them, and there is nothing to say you can’t fit one to your own appliance that you use, but if you sell or give it away with one on, you may find you are breaking the law. You may also find yourself in trouble if others in your household, suffer injury or death while using these plugs. Sockets with switch or not, can still be unsafe to children and adults, as they can have a screwdriver of something similar, poked into the earth slot, to open the shutter to the live slots, which would allow other objects to be poked into the live slots, so these in themselves are not 1009% safe.

Regards Nick.

Not correct Nick,

It’s not primarally about small finges touching pins, it about conductive objects touching the pins and a person or two pins causing a short. Metallic objects include jewelery like chains and believe it or not table knives (people trying to remove tight plugs). And in direct context to our hobby SWARF

It is illegal to fit a unsleeved plug as a replacement part even for you own use. It beggers belief that you would even consider doing this. Why would you? To save a pound or two buying a new plug?

It is illegal to sell or give away an item with an unsleeved mains plug.

Well done Michael for dealing with this. If anyone wants some training on this (now called Inspection and Testing of Electrical Equipment” (ITEE)” not PAT) there is an online course here :www.onlinepattestingcourse.co.uk/pat-testing-course/
It needs an email address (you can put a rubbish one they don’t confirm it) and concentrates on their tester but is otherwise OK.

The visual part of the check is most important.

At a previous workplace of mine the “legal” management decided we could not test the companies own equipment despite the fact we tested all of our products and had two top of the line testers to do it. They contracted a “specialist” to do it over a weekend. They had been specifically told not to test anything in our R&D lab but did. This resulted him condemming our multi voltage mains prototyping rig  and putting a pass label on a empty diecast box with a C14 inlet on one end (the case wasn’t grounded).
What was worse, he went to the stores rack and took all our european, north american and austrialian (we sold machnes world wide) C13 leads, cut the plugs off and fitted 13A plugs…..

Robert.

[MacolmParticipant @macolm]

Still, the bigger the committee, the better the result?

 

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Interestingly [to me at least] … although ‘Child Safety’ is always a good line:

The biggest risk with the original style of 13A plug might be to us old fogeys with arthritic hands.

I have personally seen evidence of someone slipping the blade of a table-knife twixt plug and socket, so as to prise out the plug.

The enfeeblement caused by arthritis can lead people to take desperate measures.

[ and Yes, I know that plug-tops with ‘handles’ are available … but how often are they installed ? ]

MichaelG.

 

 

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

The danger of the old style plugs are relatively insignificant compared to the standard bayonet or screw type lamp holders. Taking the lamp out of the holder reveals a live terminal which even fat fingers can reach without difficulty.

If replacing a blown lamp then there is no indication if the fitting is switched on or off. So when are the authorities going to outlaw these very dangerous lamp holders and introduce a “safe” version? Don’t hold your breath.

Andrew.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Dave (SOD) I think you mean 1943 not 1933 for the design of the 13A plug.

 

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Andrews example was my introduction to electricity at age 6 as dad changed a bedside light bulb ! Never stuck my fingers into a light socket again !

As to PAT or ITEE a fellow I worked with was sent on a PAT testers course, it was assumed that the candidate had basic knowledge of electrics but needed the paperwork to do the work. 1 day course, multiple choice questions, He was helped to do the test by the tutor !!! He had no knowledge or experience and one day was bemoaning that 6 new toasters had all failed, he showed me the training manual, earth bond failure, he was testing at 25 amps, on .75mm flex ! He had NO idea. I often wondered how much gear he blew up by flash testing ?

There were many designs of plug back in the 40s & 50s, I remember the odd looking Wylex 3 pin. The fused, flat pin plug like the BS 1363 was not the best idea but as a system was cheap. Before using cheap BS1363 plugs always check your fire insurance.  Noel.

[John MCParticipant @johnmc39344]

A story related to me about one of the reason for insulating (some of) the live and neutral pins was that a certain coin of the realm was the perfect fit between the three pins.   Fit the coin, plug it in, switch on and bang.  I once saw a newspaper report that this happened in a school, the teacher received a significant injury.

I have a couple of Bosch garden tools.  The plug tops are not easy to unplug because of the shape.  I have watched someone use a screwdriver to lever the plug out of the socket!

[john fletcher 1Participant @johnfletcher1]

I have before me a copy of EIM Feb 2013 page 269 in which it clearly states that PAT testing is not a legal requirement, But should you have a brush with the Health Safety Executive their bill could be horrendous. In 2013 EIM said HSE charge was £124 an hour. As PAT testing is such a simple task best just get it done. Organisations who carryout PAT testing I’m told, do imply that it is a legal requirement.

 

[peak4Participant @peak4]

As an ex GPO/BT employee before retirement, I’m reasonably familiar with our testing regime at the time.
All engineers with mains operated kit, had to have every item re-certified annually by our local mech aids department.
I often used to coordinate Harry’s arrival and have everyone’s kit, as well as all the communal stuff available for him; many hundreds of items to be tested/certified/recorded/labelled over several days.

In one of our re-orgs Mech aids got a new head of division and different senior local management.
They took a well informed decision, that any item which didn’t come from our current formal rate book (essentially an internal stores catalogue), was to have the plug cut off and be skipped.
Our various testing officers around the country tried explaining the folly of this idea, as much our specialised kit came from external suppliers, or companies such as RS.

The instruction then became more formal, and Harry was told he would be formally disciplined if he failed to carry out the instruction, as well as being reported to HSE for possible prosecution; this seemed a little over the top to both of us.
Nationally we were probably talking about millions of pounds worth of equipment, some irreplaceable as no longer currently made.
He proceeded to explain that the first item he would scrap would be the one he used for safety testing, as well as the printer for the test labels. 🙂

I gather that the instruction was then rescinded and he was told to carry on as normal.

[David JuppParticipant @davidjupp51506]

HSE publishes guidance on checks / maintenance of portable electrical equipment.  Check the guidance before spending money on unnecessary PAT testing.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

^^^ Available as a free download:  hsg107.pdf

MichaelG.

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

Regarding the shape of modern 3 pin plugs, I have to agree with John MC comment above. It is not just limited to a certain manufacturer.

Some plugs are very difficult to remove, not necessarily the pins being tight when engaging in their sockets, but the physical shape of the body itself.

[Author]

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