Rivers 2.49cc and DC 1cc engines

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Ramon,

 

Any tips on the initial setup before attempting to start the Rivers?

 

Terry

[Ramon WilsonParticipant @ramonwilson3]

Hi Terry, SWMBO’s had me digging all day -glad to sit down for five mins

 

First off is your fuel fresh. If it’s old it may have given off some of it’s ether content which will ‘confuse’ its starting characteristics – may not even fire!

 

Given that it is then needle valve open about 3 turns Finger choke a couple of flicks and a squirt in the exhaust is all that’s needed. Make sure ypur fuel tank isn’t above the needle valve as you will get gravity feed and it will run  rich conversely too low and suction might be inadequate. Ideal position is centre line of tank level with spray bar. If the engine feels ‘hard’ back off the compression at least a turn. If you really are in doubt back off two or three turns and gradually bring it in as you flick. Once you establish the comp setting starting from cold should just be a matter of opening the needle valve half a turn or so – it will fire and stop for a few times as it gets warm then will pick up and be away – you shouldn’t need to alter the compression to any great extent once you are happy with it. Turning the needle valve in will lean it out – too much and the engine will go hard and the revs will die off I would guess running setting will be about 2-1/4 2-1/2 turns open. Running it rich and backing the comp off will give a nice ‘burpy’ rich run not what she was designed for but nice to do. Big thing is not to let it get too hot

 

 

Bet it doesn’t take much flicking – I can smell it now – must go tea’s ready.

 

Have fun, good luck and  tell us how you  get on.

 

Ramon

 

Edited By Ramon Wilson on 17/04/2010 20:02:25

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi,

 

I bought some fuel a couple of years ago intending to resurrect these engines but I never got round to it. (I used to procrastinate, now I can’t be bothered!!)

 

It has been sealed in it’s original container so should it be ok or will the ether somehow have evaporated?  If so what is the ratio of Ether to fuel as I can obtain some ether from the labs at work.

 

Regards

 

Terry

[Ramon WilsonParticipant @ramonwilson3]

Hi again Terry,

 

No, that should be fine. It’s when its been opened and half gone and the top not really tight that the evaporation can leave it a bit lifeless.

 

The amounts of the three basic ingredients vary depending on performance wanted – a basic 33-33-33 will run an old side port but the Rivers definitely wont like that!  Virtually all diesel fuels have an ignition improver (used to be either amyl nitrate or nitrite but try going in a chemist and asking for that these days!)

 

A look  at http://www.modeltechnics.com/diesel.htm will give you their mixes.

 

If you are able to get to any of the major model aircraft shows there is a company called Southern Modelcraft (unfortunately no website and they don’t (or didn’t) supply shops) that usually attend most major events. They specialise in fuels and do two very good diesel mixes at very reasonable prices.

 

Fire it up soon – Ramon

 

 

 

 

[Jens Eirik Skogstad 1Participant @jenseirikskogstad1]

Amyl nitrate are difficult to buy then you can use MEKP hardener for glass fiber. MEKP means Methyl Ethylene Ketone peroxide.  The glassfiber hardener are easy to buy in all shop who are selling glassfiber hardener.

 

You can use ether from starter fluid for combustion engines in spraybox in case it is impossible to buy ether where you live. Let it cool in freeze box in some hour and empty propellant. Then empty fluid in glass bottle with tight cap for storing if not all fluid are used.

 

The engine can run at BBQ igniter, lamp oil, DERV if kerosene are not available.

 

 

 

 

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Thanks for that help Jens. As a tyro in this aspect of model engineering I’m learning fast but need lots of advice like this. 

 

I do have some fuel as I said earlier but i look forward to mixing my own.  Is castor oil still available from Pharmacies here in the UK?

 

Whatever did we do before the internet gave us this ability to spread knowledge and benefit from such a wide range of experience and advice.  Brilliant.

 

Here are some of the River’s components after cleaning:

Here are a couple of pictures of the Rivers, cleaned and re-assembled.  I’ve uploaded a few more for those who may be interested in these Vintage engines.

 

[Ramon WilsonParticipant @ramonwilson3]

 

Nice work Terry, looks very clean and mean.

 

Mixing your own is no problem though I think you will probably find castor from the chemist rather expensive volume for volume. Like wise you may have dfficulty getting ether from the same source. I’m not sure about Model Technics now (they used to sell ether at 2.5 ltrs min) but Southern Model Craft who I mentioned do sell all the separate ingredients including an ‘ingnition improver’ – problem is as said only available at shows but their address is – 58 Salisbury Road, Tonbridge, Kent TN10 4PE – 01732 350691. Very helpful peoplem, they are a ‘husband and wife’ team and have been mixing and selling fuels for many years.  Might be worth giving them a ring.

 

A few years back mixing your own on a sport basis was another ‘addition’ to the hobby. I don’t want to put you off but unless you want to mix a reasonable amount – or rather have to purchase the volumes for a reasonable amount – in these days its probably far easier to use the readily available stuff. It depends on how much you intend to use I guess -all down to paying yer money etc.

 

Jens I’m intrigue by the MEKP haven’t heard of using that before – does it work as well as Amyl Nitrate? It is virtually impossible to obtain that over the counter these days.

 

 

Keep at it – Ramon

[Ramon WilsonParticipant @ramonwilson3]

Sorry about this computer kept showing page cannot be displayed. Obviously the post was going up.

Edited By Ramon Wilson on 18/04/2010 10:58:42

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Ramon,

 

It seems that you have had exactly the same problem as I had.  Don’t you think it would be a good idea that we should be able to delete our own duplicate posts as well as edit them?

 

Thanks for the compliment by the way, I intend to take your advice and try to stick to ready made fuel as I only intend to run the engines for fun on the bench rather than fly them.  The latter may come later if I can resurrect my old models which I built but never flew.

 

By the way, have you managed to make any more progress on the ‘ED’ engines yet

 

Regards

 

Terry

[Ramon WilsonParticipant @ramonwilson3]

Hi Terry,

 

Yes I do, it’s a bit embarrasing to see what you’ve done when it’s too late. but I think David has already made reference to it elsewhere that for some reason it can’t be done.

 

Sticking to bought fuel is probably the best option at his stage but just in case you do decide I have just found ‘in the back of the cupboard’ a nearly full bottle of ‘D A NItrate’ which is the stuff sold by Southern MC for ignition improver. You would be most welcome to a drop of this if you need it, just let me know.

 

The ‘Racers’ are coming on but nothing done since the last post. The parts  are all ready for a visit to the bead blaster this week and I have now got all the stuff ready for anodising.

 

Bye for now – Ramon

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Ramon,

 

These duplicates are very annoying, it’s a pity we can’t delete them.  I think that I remember this error some time ago but I just forgot about it.  i’ll just have to remember next time 

 

I’ve found my fuel and I’m going to try to run the Rivers some time soon.  Thanks for the offer of the A Nitrate, I may take you up on that at a later date.  the fuel I have is indeed ModelTech which I bought from a local model shop some time ago but unfortunately like so many other things the shop is no more!  Many of the local model shops seem to be closing.  I can’t find a decent one within 20 miles of here and even then I have to go into the city centre, It’s very sad but I suppose that is one of the downsides of the Internet.

 

Best regards

 

Terry

[Jens Eirik Skogstad 1Participant @jenseirikskogstad1]

Posted by Ramon Wilson on 18/04/2010 10:54:58:

  

Jens I’m intrigue by the MEKP haven’t heard of using that before – does it work as well as Amyl Nitrate? It is virtually impossible to obtain that over the counter these days.

 

 

Keep at it – Ramon

 

 Ramon, not nitrites, nitrates only, the peroxides are used as ignition improver.

The tema about ignition improver are wrote in the book “Model aero engine encyclopaediae” by Ron Moulton.

 

Medical castor oil works well, but it give black sludge. The alternative are Castrol M who are a castor oil product. The other alternative are motoroil 10W-40 or higher viscosity to example 15W-50. I has used motor oil instead castor oil in model diesel fuel without sign to make problem in the model diesel engines.

The model diesel engines are not hot as glow plug engines and there are not burned motor oil out of exhaust port, mostly oil. The diesel engine fuel has better lube than model glow plug engine fuel cause the methanol are dry and without lubricating properties. The model diesel engine fuel has both kerosene and oil as lube for the engine hence the engine will last long life than glow plug engines.

Edited By Jens Eirik Skogstad on 18/04/2010 19:37:15

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi all,

 

I had a go at starting the old Rivers this afternoon but didn’t even get a spark of life out of it.  However I was only able to try for about 5 minutes before the venerable old Keil Kraft nylon propellor broke.  I suppose after 35 years of neglect the sudden burst of activity was just too much for the poor old thing!

 

I’ve located a model shop reasonable close to  where I work, who sell wooden props, so I’m going to try one of those tomorrow.

 

I’m not sure how much compression there should be on the engine. Is there any rough ‘rule of thumb’ I cold follow? Is there a ‘magic starting fuel’ I could use when initially turning the engine over? As I said I am really a complete beginner on this type of engine.

 

Best regards

 

Terry

[Jens Eirik Skogstad 1Participant @jenseirikskogstad1]

Set the piston at TDC, then move the contrapiston carefully with compression screw until the contrapiston are touching the piston. Then unscrew 1-1/2 – 2 turns. Flip the propeller to the contrapiston are moved up at place by compression. The main needle 3-4 turns out from closed position. Prime the engine careful with some drops fuel in exhaustport. See there are enough fuel in fuel hose and fuel level a bit low under position of spray bar.

 

Now you are ready to start the engine until it will fire up. Flip the propeller fast as possible to generate heat of compression to make fuel ignited, not same as you are flipping the glow plug engine.

 

 See the instruction here: http://www.eifflaender.com/instruct.htm

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Thanks for the advice Jens,

 

the PAW information seems quite thorough.  I will try this after I get home this evening (hopefully with a new airscrew ).

Terry

[Ramon WilsonParticipant @ramonwilson3]

Hi Terry,

I’m probably a bit late for you to get his before work but I would get a 9X4 prop if you are able. The engine will turn this with ease and the low pitch will allow the engine to rev freely without loading – ‘rev’ means run smoothly not ‘top screaming whack!’. Your nylon prop has probably suffered with light degradation over the years. A blessing in a way – had it gone whilst running ????????

 

Jens advice on establishing the starting position may prove problematic if the contra piston is very tight in the bore. Screwing right down over compresses the engine and it could (not will) lead to damage to the con rod. Personally I would think that your problem at this stage with such a short time to get it going is down to lack of good ‘flicking’ practice. Rivers engines have/had a good reputation for ease of starting so I think it unlikely theres a lot wrong there.

 

If you are right handed set the prop at about  ‘ten past eight’ with the top blade pulling up against compression. At this stage leave the compression where it is only because you say you ran it before so it should be somewhere near. Needle valve as already said about 3 – 31/2 turns. Pull some fuel through by putting your finger over the intake and flicking the prop a couple of times and then flick it several times to bring the fuel through the engine. A squirt of fuel in the exhaust port and then flick a bit harder. If the engine is under compressed it will feel quite ‘easy’ and unresponsive. If it’s over compressed it will feel hard and fairly resistant. If you flood it it may be difficult to get it over compression in which case blow across the exhaust port to clear some of the fuel out of the cylinder. You may need to do this several times – if it keeps flooding close the needle right down, clear the engine of fuel as above then start again with less turns on the needle.

 

Under compressed – keep flicking but at he same time screw the comp screw in a 1/4 turn at a time – this could quite be a few turns – depends on if the comp has been backed off previously. Continue screwing in until a compressive resistance begins and you are getting near. Don’t expect it to fire and burst into continous running at first – once you establish the settings it should do that. If – When – it fires it may run a few seconds then increase in revs and the stop – that’s too lean and/or slightly undercompressed – open the needle a 1/4 turn and/or increase the comp a tad.

 

If it runs ‘hard’ – exhaust a bit black – and dies off slowly, revs reducing fairly rapidly thats overcompressed and possibly flooding too so do the opposite.

 

You don’t need to use anything else other than the fuel to help starting. Despite what I said previously about the fuel probably being okay (which I still think it should be) if the engine simply won’t fire at all then that’s the first thing to suspect. You could be flogging the proverbial so sourcing some fresh fuel should be the next step.

 

The one thing that I would strongly advise against is using any form of starter motor on a diesel. You could do some serious damage to the internals – starting a diesel is very definitely a ‘feel’ thing.

 

Terry, I hope I’m not granny teaching with the above. There’s a few ‘armfuls’ of flicking gone into these marvellous little pieces of engineering over the years – knowing what to do is one thing but trying to put it into words is actually quite difficult and another and very different ball game.

 

Hope this helps as well  then

 

Regards – Ramon

 

 

 

 

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Already mentioned on Ramons “Racer” thread, the nylon prop will have “Dried out”. Any “Old” ones boil in water for quarter of an hour and leave to cool submerged in the pan.

 

   Regards  Ian

 

  Providing you don’t sharpen them, wooden props ALWAYS left a better cut.

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Cheers Guys,

 

I got your message at work Ramon and settled for a new nylon 9 x 4 prop as they didn’t have that size in wood. 

 

I have a couple of smaller nylon props for the DC Ian, and I’ll try boiling those to see the effect.

 

While in the shop I noticed a cabinet with vintage motors which the owner called his Archive.  There were some beautiful motors including another Rivers but with a different pattern crankcase but the same Cylinder head as mine.  There were too many others to take in in one go but the owner said that most of them were loaned by customers.  I hope to persuade the owner to let me photograph the engines (through the glass cabinet probably) and if I can I will post some pictures.

 

Thanks again for the advice I’ll keep trying, but not this evening, I’ve had a hard time trying to teach 13 year olds all day while being disrupted by room changes as my IT lab was being used for exams. It’s 12 year olds all day tomorrow under the same circumstances

Regards

Terry

Edited By Terryd on 19/04/2010 17:39:01

[Ramon WilsonParticipant @ramonwilson3]

Hi Terry,

 

Have a look at this – http://www.go-cl.se/trh/rivsilst.html it might explain the difference.

 

Did the shop have any fuel by any chance?

 

Keep at it – Ramon

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Ramon,

 

The Rivers in the shop had a completely different crankcase from the ones I am used to.  I will try to get a pictuer soon and you will see what I mean, Perhaps it was a larger capacity, I’m not sure.

 

Unfortunately he had no fuel as he said most   of his customers were into electric motors these days.  Not quite the same romance unfortunately as far as I am concerned.  I love the sound and smell of these old engines.  A bit like the sound of vintage British motorbikes perhaps?

 

Perhaps I’m too old fashioned now!!  So it looks as if I will have to mix my own fuel for small quantities in
future until i can get to a show.

 

Best regards

 

Terry

 

p.s. wonderful pictures of the Rivers by the way.

 

T

[Ramon WilsonParticipant @ramonwilson3]

Hi Terry,

 

That figures on the fuel – it’s the way things seem to be going for most of the hobbies that require power units. Understandable really – far less mess, clean (no oil!), quiet-ish and awesome power output but as you so rightly note no smell and ‘noise’ (and short endurance to boot).

 

It’s a real sense of the times when the only engines in a model shop cabinet are for nostalgia display only! A couple of years back I was asked to sell a small collection of marine (model) engines for someone who had died. Most of these were new in box so I bought two model boat magazines to get some idea of current pricesand there was not one listing for an IC engine in either

 

It’s possible the other Rivers in the shop is the 3.5 Silver Arrow. Similar in layout but a beefier crankcase with possibly a longer intake tube than the Streak. Heres another site – scroll down to the bottom, there is a Silver Arrow second row up. http://www.sam122.sk/engines/other/other.htm

Some lovely engines on here, real ‘objets-drool’.

 

Offer is still there if you need the improver. PM me your address when you’re ready

 

Jens my aplogies for not reponding to your last post. I have the Moulton book – thanks.  I too have used various oils both castor and mineral for diesel fuels but that was a few years back. If I ever do mix any fuel again I will keep in mind the MEKP and see how it compares.

 

Thanks again – Ramon

[Ramon WilsonParticipant @ramonwilson3]

Hi Terry,

 

That figures on the fuel – it’s the way things seem to be going for most of the hobbies that require power units. Understandable really – far less mess, clean (no oil!), quiet-ish and awesome power output but as you so rightly note no smell and ‘noise’ (and short endurance to boot).

 

It’s a real sense of the times when the only engines in a model shop cabinet are for nostalgia display only! A couple of years back I was asked to sell a small collection of marine (model) engines for someone who had died. Most of these were new in box so I bought two model boat magazines to get some idea of current pricesand there was not one listing for an IC engine in either

 

It’s possible the other Rivers in the shop is the 3.5 Silver Arrow. Similar in layout but a beefier crankcase with possibly a longer intake tube than the Streak. Heres another site – scroll down to the bottom, there is a Silver Arrow second row up. http://www.sam122.sk/engines/other/other.htm

Some lovely engines on here, real ‘objets-drool’.

 

Offer is still there if you need the improver. PM me your address when you’re ready

 

Jens my aplogies for not reponding to your last post. I have the Moulton book – thanks.  I too have used various oils both castor and mineral for diesel fuels but that was a few years back. If I ever do mix any fuel again I will keep in mind the MEKP and see how it compares.

 

Thanks again – Ramon

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Guys,

 

Just to report a small success.  I have managed to get the Rivers firing but not running.  It did run once for a couple of seconds (at most) when I choked it with my left hand as advised.  However following that, the engine fired once and then caught my finger, cutting it in the process!

 

So now I must look out my old finger protector which I used to use.  I’d forgotten how vicious these little things can be.   

 

I’m sure it won’t be long before I have success.  I’ll keep you posted.

 

Terry

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

So now I must look out my old finger protector which I used to use.  I’d forgotten how vicious these little things can be.   

 

  Damned wimp, it’s nobut a 249,  Flicking an OS 40 glow makes you quicker

 

  Regards  Ian.

[Ramon WilsonParticipant @ramonwilson3]

Hi Terry,

 

Welcome to the club! Take no notice of ‘old show off’ (TiC) above – those diesels can give you quite a nip ha ha – my first cut came from an even ‘whimpier’  AM10 – first engine. It was running backwards so I put my left hand behind the prop to put my finger over the intake to stop it and the Frog 7×4 nylon ‘razor blade’ cut into the side of my fore finger for near its length. Quite a baptism for a 13 year old! and the scar is still to be seen when my hands are cold – happy days.

Big or small though they all bite it’s just some bite more than others but I would agree the bigger they are the more they can hurt !

 

Going back to your cut

If the nylon prop you bought was a ‘glass filled’ type – Graupner, Master, APC (particularly APC!) etc then its a good idea to take a bit of wet and dry and sand off the flashing down the edges of the blades as these can be very sharp and can give a really nasty cut especially if, when against over compression/flooding your finger is forced to run down the prop blade. – Don’t ask

That won’t affect the prop in any way for your current needs. Glass filled props are normally opaque and more rigid than the type you broke.

 

I’ve had a good day today – been over to my friend Lee’s and used his bead blaster. The Racers and a couple of other rebuilds are now looking much nicer.

 

Keep the elastoplast handy

 

Regards – Ramon

 

PS If you have got it firing as you say you are not far off the settings – don’t be tempted to increase the compression too much at this stage but let it fire and run like that a few times – the length of these short runs should gradually increase . If it does break into a run but is a bit intermittent then increase the comp a bit but if all you can get is just short bursts then open the needle slightly and increase the comp a tad.

Edited By Ramon Wilson on 20/04/2010 20:00:37

[Author]

Posts