Rina and T&K drawings

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

Err. whats completing the "earth" between the chassy connection of the coil and the plug?

I know the engin will in normal use but in the photos above ???…

Just a thought.

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

Oh and the AA batteries if ALKALINE might suprise you as to how low their internal resistance is .. so 1 amp might be possible….but maybe not for long.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Jason I suspect the black wire is being touched against the plug body to test the circuit.

J

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

Batteries might do 1 amp but have douts over battery box ….

[Jim GreetheadParticipant @jimgreethead]

Hi Norman,

It is good to see you back again and to know that you are close to having a working engine.

I agree with the other posts: the wires from the battery box look a bit skinny for the current required and you do need an earth return from the plug to the earth on the coil.

The coil is probably designed to work off 12 volts so connecting the setup to your car battery should produce a healthy spark. Then you could compare that spark with the one from the 6 volt battery box.

The weather in May? Glasgow and Edinburgh were freezing, as was our visit to The Shuttleworth Collection. But the last few days in London were 27 degrees; wonderful and a nice memory to speed us on our way.

Harrogate was a revelation. Bigger, better and brighter than anything I have seen before. And I met some of the Madmodders as well. It was a good day. Pity is is so far away.

Jim

PS I am hanging out for photos of the finished article

[Norman VantParticipant @normanvant32224]

Thanks for the responsed.

To clarify a pew points about my quick and dirty set-up: the plug lead is copper – a bit of a surprise in this day and age. The plug is a CM6 which seems to be recommended for this type of engine and others have success with them. Anyway, the rather unusual 10mm thread is already cut in the head, so I'm stuck with it. The plug cap is the one supplied with it and similarly is recommended elsewhere.

To test, using all three hands, the plug body was held against the mounting lug on the coil and the black wire from the battery pack was used to make and break the contact, again to the coil's mounting lug. I certainly got a spark at the electrodes but not as fat as I would have liked. I was assured that the coil was 6V when I bought it – but who knows?

The thing I was unsure about was whether the condenser was connected to the right things and in the correct orientation. I can't fit it at the points for lack of space. Worryingly, I was getting a far bigger LT spark, on make and break, than the HT one.

Like most people, I have drawers full of mains chargers for various, long-forgotten, appliances. However, not one of them is rated above 7.5 V and 150mA. So, not much help there. I may have to use jump leads from the lawnmower, which has a 12V battery and shares the workshop!

What is exercising my mind, looking forward a bit, is the I would like the whole thing to be self-sufficient as a unit (within battery capacity) and a 12V lead/acid battery is going to be completely out of scale and impossible to conceal without mounting the engine on a disproportionately large box, rather than the skid that I had planned. What on earth do other people do?

I had a look a the buzz-coil thread. Loads of references to these on the internet but all written in terms that make my eyes glaze over.

Now, about that advertising banner on the right…..

Regards,

Norman.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Norman, I intend to fit my whole buzz coil and battery into a small wooden case as well, something like this.

I bought a 6V lead acid battery that measures 98x25mm and 52mm high, there are plenty of them on the net and with a charger come in about £15.00. The Minimag man also sells them.

If you felt the need for 12V then two could be fitted in series and as they are sealed they can be laid on their side to keep the height down

J

Edited By JasonB on 11/08/2012 16:30:49

Edited By JasonB on 11/08/2012 16:32:24

[Norman VantParticipant @normanvant32224]

Jason,

Well, that's that ordered! Should have bought their coil really but it's fiendishly expensive for what it is.

Can you confirm that it's OK to fit the condenser anywhere in the LT circuit between the +ve and ground? I'm out of my comfort zone here.

Regards,

Norman.

[Norman VantParticipant @normanvant32224]

Jason,

I've just had another go with the setup "in hand" using jump leads from a 12V lead/acid battery. Something is seriously wrong! -ve clip on the mounting lug. Yellow+ve feed touched against the +ve croc clip. With the plug held against the earth lug, on breaking the circuit I'm not getting a spark at the plug, I do get a jolt that I can detect with my fingers but not enough to make me jump about. I'm getting a truly massive LT spark from the contact I'm breaking and the earth lugs are getting too hot to touch.

I'm no electrics expert but I have wired a car, from scratch, with no problems (just a headache) and I never came across this sort of thing .

The coil was new and unused from a motorcycle electrics dealer so I have to assume that it is in working condition but what's going on!!!???!!!

Don't really waht to spend £50-odd (with VAT and postage) for a purpose-made one.

Help!

Norman.

.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I would go +ve battery terminal to +ve primary , thats the tab on the coil.

center bar of coil to wire of capacitor and to one side of points

Ground capacitor body and other side of points

-ve of battery to ground

[Ian Richards 3Participant @ianrichards3]

After about a year (and a lot of references to this thread), my Rina almost spluttered into life today!

I've 95% followed the design published in the magazine, with the clarifications and improvements published on here. I've deviated from the published design with the ignition system though – I've put a cam on the crankshaft (inside the 'back' flywheel), which drives the contact breaker from a mini and seems to work well with a test spark plug. This gives a wasted spark (at the end of the exhaust stroke), but I can't see a problem with this.

On butane (regulated down to 28 mbar), the engine fires fairly reliably, although the adjustment of the needle valve is very critical. It doesn't seem to generate much power though, and only runs for between 10 & 30 seconds before running out of steam….

My suspicion is that my valves aren't sealing as well as they should. When I turn the engine over by hand you get a certain amount of 'bounce' as the air is compressed', but if you do the compression stroke over about 5 seconds, it's apparent that all the pressure has leaked out. How does this match with anyone else's experiennce?

If you put a lit candle next to the exhaust port, you occasionally also get a puff of flame from the exhaust on the compression stroke when you turn the engine over at about 200 RPM.

Any advice as to whether this leakage is significant would be appreciated.

Thanks

Ian

[Norman VantParticipant @normanvant32224]

Jason,

After a lot of angst and swearing, I've got the sparks sorted out (again, only in hand hand, of course but reassuring). Whilst in town, I took my existing coil into the motorcycle shop and explained my tale of woe. He took one look at it, saw it was Chinese, and said to throw it in the bin. In his next breath, he sold me a Japanese one. Magic! Fat spark where I want it and a minimal one where I don't. I really should have known but I do expect new things to work. Naive or what?

Thanks for your thoughts and advice. At least I will now have a battery that's man enough.

Ian,

If you are using a piston with C.I. rings, I would have thought 5 seconds to lose compression is fairly normal. They are never going to give a perfect seal. Having said that, I haven't tried to run mine yet. I think think that the most hit-and-miss thing about the engine is likely to be the timing. Difficult ot be anything but approximate.

Good luck. Let us know how you get on.

Regards,

Norman.

[Norman VantParticipant @normanvant32224]

To all who have helped and encouraged,

To my utter amazement, my Rina runs!!! Not only does it run, it runs in hit and miss mode – very slowly. Too slow, in fact for complete reliability but it has done up to about 5 minutes without stopping. I am in the process of tweeking the ignition timing, mixture and most importantly the governor springs. The only thing that stopped me sorting it out completely today, was that my starter (Black and Decker) ran flat.

Altogether it's a load off my mind. Two years in the build and NOT working would have been a real downer.

At the moment, it's on a jury-rigged base with coil, wires and pipes all over the place. But it WORKS!!!

Now Jim, how about finishing yours off?

Regards,

Norman.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Good to hear it runs, expect to see some video once you have it all tidied up.

J

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi Norman

Glad it is running.

I am always pleased when someone builds something from a design in Model Engineer.

regards David

[Jim GreetheadParticipant @jimgreethead]

That's great news Norman and, like Jason, I am hanging out for the video. You don't need to wait until it is all tidied up and beautiful you know.

In fact, I would video it now if I were you. I have had the experience of something working in "lash up" form and then behaving badly when made to look good.

I am still fiddling around with the PutPutMan Tiny four strokes that I started early last year. It has been too cold in the workshop to do much until the last couple of days. And the cold weather is not finished yet.

Jim

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

Hi Norman,

Great to hear you have had success! As others have said, get video proof of the running as soon as possible, before any gremlins get back from holidays….

JD

[Norman VantParticipant @normanvant32224]

Jim,

I have a rooted objection to showing work that's not finished properly. That said, I do agree that engines sometimes behave badly when tarted up. I had such a problem with my beam engine. Come to that, I have known women like that, too.

Be that as it may, the Rina is now being painted and mounted (no further references to women). Then I have to find someone with a video camera to do the honours, not to mention having to work out how to post a video on here. All in good time.

Now I have the considerable problem of finding another project worth doing!

Regards,

Norman

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Norman,

when you do get a video – no need for a camera now that most mobile phones are very capable of good video – the best way to post it here is to upload it to YouTube and then get the embed code from Youtube and use the icon above the message compose box to embed the video here. If you're not sure how to do this just ask. Here's an example

Enjoy,

Best regards

Terry

[Norman VantParticipant @normanvant32224]

Terry,

NICE!

Thanks for the advice. However, my phone is barely capable of making a call. No street cred whatsoever. Not sure that even my wife's phone records sound, though. I'm fairly computer savvy, but modern phones are a complete mystery!

Ah. well. Back to the painting.

Regards,

Norman.

[Ian Richards 3Participant @ianrichards3]

Hi everyone

I know that this is re-opening a fairly old thread, but mine is finally running really well, on carburettor version 3!

I found that the engine ran fairly well on the gas carb (with a low pressure butane regulator), but 'ran out of steam' after a few minutes as (I think) the cylinder heated up. I think that the fundamental problem was that the air had to be sucked through two spring loaded valves.

Carb version 2 was Jan Ridders vapour carb. This also worked well for a few minutes, until the most volatile components had evaporated from the fuel. The mixture had to be richened after this, and I think that the pressure drop in the relatively long air hose I had limited the power available.

Carb version 3 is based on the 2 cylinder 4 stroke engine currently being serialised in the mag. It's much simplified (since no throttle is required) and has a 3mm orifice. Fuel is supplied via a needle valve, which controls the mixture well. With this carb, the engine will run until the fuel tank is dry.

The only other modification I've made is with the ignition. I'm using a modified mini contact breaker mounted below the crankshaft, and triggered by a 'cam' that's between the frame and the back flywheel. This means that you get a spark at every top dead centre, but it works really well. Power from a spare rechargeable drill battery (9.6V, but the 12V coil seems to work fine with it).

All I need now is something for it to drive! Any suggestions?

Ian

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

With the current price of Leccie I would suggest a 230Volt generator !

Clive

[Norman VantParticipant @normanvant32224]

Ian,

You seem to have got to where I am, though I planned on petrol from the start. I pinched the carb from David Kerzel' site. That is extremely simple and works flawlessly. I also have a set of points from Joseph Lucas, Prince of Darkness. Great minds…

Battery and coil are hidden in the base.

It's all polished and painted now. All I need to do is to get to grips with the new video camera.

I'm very tempted to couple mine to the rotary bean slicer. Might be fun. I grow an aweful lot of them for the freezer.

Regards,

Norman.

[Norman VantParticipant @normanvant32224]

Here it is. The media event the world has been waiting for – "Rina: The Movie"

If this has worked, I look forward to the Oscar nominations.

Norman.

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Norman,

Great engine and great video. I'm very impressed.

Cheers,

Rod

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