Rina and T&K drawings

[Jim GreetheadParticipant @jimgreethead]

That is great Norman, it is always nice when something one designs actually works as intended. This is shaping up to be a really nice engine.

 

Pity about the weather, I give up when the temperature drops to about 10 degrees (and slow down as it aproaches). But it could be worse: some friends in Aylesbury spent a night in the ceiling thawing the water pipes with a hair dryer.

 

Please get all the cold weather out of the way before May if you wouldn’t mind.

 

Jim

 

[Norman VantParticipant @normanvant32224]

Jim,

 

Rub it in about the weather, why don’t you?

 

Anyway, I’ve put this period of cowering indoors to good use. I’ve been thinking about oilers. There are two issues that I can see here. I live in a very tolerant household but even so, I think that a model that drips oil onto an antique table will have me in the divorce court. I would like to have a means of setting the flow rate and leaving it alone but also need to have a positive shut-off. Do-able with two needles. But then the second issue arises. The main bearing ones have to be of a small dia. to clear the crank webs.

 

I’ve roughed out an undimensioned design and I have some glass tubing of an appropriate size but I have doubts about making it work at this scale. It’s a like Brian Rupnow’s one but with the added shut-off feature.

 

Suppose I’ll have to suck it and see. Not my preferred way of working.

 

Regards,

 

Norman.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

You don’t need two needles, it can be done with one. You make it so it can be screw adjusted for flow and then a cam over lever turns it on or off without affecting the flow adjustment.

 

I’ll dig out a picture of one I made that was less than 1/2″ dia.

 

J

 

EDIT

 

Here is the picture, the straight knurl adjusts flow rate, lever as shown stops the flow then putting the lever vertical starts the flow by lifting the needle to the height set by the knurl.

 

Edited By JasonB on 06/02/2012 18:03:40

[Norman VantParticipant @normanvant32224]

Jason,

 

That is a jewel.

 

I assume that there is a spring inside the knurled thimble and a shoulder on the upper part of the needle for it to act upon.

 

I’m doubless being particularly dense but I can partly get my mind round how it operates. I think I’ll have to experiment with drawing the internals to get a better handle on it. That’s a little way into the future though – if the weather ever improves.

 

Many thanks,

 

Norman.

[Norman VantParticipant @normanvant32224]

Jim and Jason,

I've gone a bit quiet lately. Work, life and vintage agricultural parts for a friend have intervened. Still, at long last I've got the oilers made. They look very blingy sitting atop the engine AND they work – adjust and shut off. Thanks Jason. "Interesting" job, cutting test tubes.

I've got to turn my mind to the carb next. I've had a good look a Brian Rupnow's build on HMEM. I haven't decided yet whether to put the tank level with the carb, or have it at "ground" level and put in check valve. I suppose the latter would look better.

Though I've now got all the parts, I'm still pushing the ignition system to the back of the queue.

I've got a couple of workshop tooling jobs to do now so that will give me some time to think about the fuel system.

Regards,

Norman.

[Richard ParsonsParticipant @richardparsons61721]

Andrew Over here I make a little added income in winter. This is from very worried looking little brazen critters carring 'things' in paper bags who knock on my door and ask "Do you do brazing Mister?".to which I reply "Yes and I do lagging as well". You should the relief on their faces

Rdgs

Dick

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

Richard, not knowing much about life in Hungary, could you explain to me the people coming to your door with jobs in paper bags to be brazed and lagged? Who are these people and why are they worried? What kind of jobs? Why in paper bags?

??

JD (confused as usual)

Edited By Jeff Dayman on 22/03/2012 16:31:41

Edited By Jeff Dayman on 22/03/2012 16:31:59

Edited By Jeff Dayman on 22/03/2012 16:32:19

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Hi Jeff,

Suffice to say they are nothing to do with steel monkeys.

Neil

[Jim GreetheadParticipant @jimgreethead]

Hi Norman, good to see you back again.

Those oilers do look the goods. Did you take some photos of the building process?

And you mentioned that Brian Rupnow has built one. Must have a look on HMEM. He does exceptionally good work.

Mine is on hold while I do some other jobs and play with a laminar flow engine that I am still trying to understand. With the cold weather coming on, it might stay in its current state for a while yet.

Meanwhile, how about some photos?

Jim

[Norman VantParticipant @normanvant32224]

Jim,

No build photos but a rather fuzzy exploded layout picture of the parts (it looked OK on the camera screen!) and of the finished product. Suppose I'll have to face up to the challenge of posting them.

I think Brian Rupnow posts on HMEM but I read the full build on the American, HSM site (my mistake). His one is to his own design. With his fantastic work-rate it will probably take longer to read the thread than it took him to build the engine. How does he do it? Does he never sleep?

Do you really get cold weather in NSW?

Regards,

Norman.

[Richard ParsonsParticipant @richardparsons61721]

In days of old when ‘Gonnes’ were all the rage there were two forms of ‘monkey’. The best known were the ‘powder monkeys’. These youngsters would scamper from their gun to the powder magazine carrying a cartridge case to pick up another charge for their gun. The then scampered back. The second type of these ‘simians’ was the ‘shot monkey’. These maties brought shot to the guns. Normally they carried several shot on a sort of wooden tray also called a monkey.

However when General Elliot who was the C in C during the great siege of Gibraltar (and who gave rise to several inn signs) decided that he had had enough of the Spanish floating (gun) batteries. So he decided to eliminate them with ‘Red Hot Shot’ (the Spanish complained that this was ‘deuced unsporting’ by gad!). To get the ‘Red Hot Shot’ from the furnaces to the guns they needed metal monkeys. These were made of brass. The original expression when things were ‘decidedly parky’ people would say “It is cold enough to freeze the balls to a brass monkey”.

The real trick was to load, lay and fire the gun quickly as the confounded thing had a large lump of red hot iron next to a bag of powder.

Over here in Hungary you can get 2 to 3 months of -20 to -30C. Our little ‘bronze simians’ can suffer If they are not properly lagged. So can various statues.

i dare say others can fiigure out why paper bags one clue is plastic can become brittle at -20C and they cost money.

Edited By Richard Parsons on 23/03/2012 12:51:42

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

Understood, thanks for explaining.

Usually in Canada we have similarly cold winters to what you describe for Hungary, but this year was exceptionally mild. Only a couple of days below -10degC and very little snow, maybe 8 cm max. Other winters we have at least 30 cm or more on the ground where I am from late November to early March.

Still, now and then you hear people say "cold enough to freeze the nuts off a steel bridge".

JD

[Jim GreetheadParticipant @jimgreethead]

Hi Norman,

I had a look on HMEM for Brian's RINA and now you have explained why I could not find it. I have followed a couple of Brian's builds on HMEM and I agree that he has an incredible work rate, particularly for someone who still does design work for others. And the quality is superb as well.

He posted a video of his workshop on Chuck Fellows' thread on HMEM and it is a poky little cupboard about 6' wide and 10' long attached to his design office. Amazing.

About the photo: it can't be all that hard for a man as talented as you, come on, get with it.

Dick: Thanks for the explanation. I was told once that the monkey was the brass triangle on which the canon balls were piled and that in the cold weather, the brass contracted and the balls fell off. But when I looked at the relative temperature coefficients and the physics of the arrangement, that did not make sense. Your explanation does.

I thought it was cold here (-7C minimum Norman) but the Hungarian temperatures are quite outside my comprehension. Perhaps that explains the flasks of anti-freeze that your dancing friends carry.

Cheers

Jim

[Norman VantParticipant @normanvant32224]

Jim,

You're a hard task-master.

Apologies for the fuzzy exploded picture. It looked OK on the little camera screen! Can't take another one since it's rivited up now.

I've also included my GA drawing. Problem is that from here, I don't see how to insert the pictures into this post. So, if you want a look, go to my album. I hope that's worked. It's entitled Norman's Rina. I'll have to crack this insertion thing another time.

Regards,

Norman

[Jim GreetheadParticipant @jimgreethead]

That engine looks really great Norman, and you have done a superb job on the little oilers.

And thanks for the oiler GA – I have made some simple ones before but now I might have a crack at the "full Monty".

Jim

[Norman VantParticipant @normanvant32224]

Jim,

Credit goes to Jason for pointing me in the right direction. I really should have put it on a white background for easier printing. If you do decide to have a go, I also have the components drawn separately and more fully dimensioned.

They are slightly too large in diameter for the Rina. If mounted directly onto the bearing caps, the crankwebs hit them. I made some slightly offset mountings with an oilway to solve that.

Regards,

Norman.

[Jim GreetheadParticipant @jimgreethead]

I agree that they look slightly too large for Rina. I have obtained some glass insulin containers from a diabetic friend and they are 10.89 diameter which (at least in the simple form of oiler) look about right on the GA. I can send some to you if you would like and if you send me a PM with your address. It is a pity you live so far off the beaten track or I could drop them around when I am in London in May.

I will upload an Alibre GA (with a bit of luck) showing the simple oiler and the grease caps that I intend to use on the main bearings.

BTW I like the look of that sunshine in the background to your photo. Keep up the good work. It is slowly getting colder here in the mornings (8-22 today) and it will only get worse.

Jim

[Norman VantParticipant @normanvant32224]

Jim,

Off the beaten track??!!?? Australia's off the beaten track!

Thanks for the offer of some tubing but I've got some around that size though when I started drawing, it all looked a little… er… tight. So I went for the larger knowing I'd have to offset them. To be honest, for the amount of running it's likely to get, they're more jewelry than anything else. Worth doing though.

Looking at that drawing in the album, I really should have loaded it a higher resolution. I'll have to attend to that.

Regards,

Norman

[Norman VantParticipant @normanvant32224]

Hello again,

Back to the Rina.

Thinking about the fuel system, my instinct is to have the tank at "ground level". Visually far better but it would allow the fuel to syphon back. Not really sure how effective and reliable an unsprung check valve would be. Put in a spring and one can't be sure that the suck would be sufficient to overcome it.

My next thought is to mount the carb at tank level and have an intake manifold from there. A remote carb seems to work on model aero 4-strokes and they are looking for performance – I'm not.

The other alternative is to go with the Jan Ridders vapouriser. It just seems a tad complicated for such a low performance engine.

Any thoughts would be appreciated, especially from anyone who has completed a Rina or any other petrol hit and miss for that matter.

Regards,

Norman.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

On the horizontals that I have done and also the Domesrtic I'm working on now the fuel tank has been in the engines base casting so just below carb level and I've not had problems with starvation and like you say better to run back slightly than flood the carb, you can see the relation between carb & tank the Zero six I suppose if you do get a bit of starvation you could do as the IC glow engines and pressurise the tank from the exhaust.

The ideal is to have the tank below and use a fuel pump, constant level chamber in the carb and a gravity return for excess fuel like the IHC particularly with vertical engines as the intake is at the top of the engine.

J

[Jim GreetheadParticipant @jimgreethead]

I used a Ridders Vaporiser on my Bonza engine and it worked fine – and dead simple to make.

And then it stopped working for reasons not known to this officer.

So I built the carb that was specified in the magazine – just a simple venturi with needle valve. But it had an unsprung ball valve to prevent fuel running back to the tank (which is mounted below carb level) and that worked fine.

My intention is to use a Vaporiser on my Rina when I get back to it despite having made the gas carby because I still can't figure out how to connect the gas carby to a gas source ( but that's another story).

In short, I have tried both, and both work. Take your pick. And let us know the outcome.

Jim

[Norman VantParticipant @normanvant32224]

Hello again,

Back at last! Work and an unruly garden have impeded progress on the Rina greatly. However, some advances have been made and the beasty is ready (at leat mechanically) for a test run – not painted or properly mounted – but ready to try. I still think I need some advice from the sparks gurus, though.

I have sourced some ignition components and the points are fitted to the engine. Unfortunately, there is no room there for the condenser. I am assuming that it amounts to the same thing if I connect said condenser across the coil LT terminals on the coil (they are only at the other end of the wires, after all!?!).

If I can manage to add the pictures to this post you will see my attempt to test the system "in hand" so to speak. The coil is off a small Honda bike and the lugs either side are what I assume to be the mountings and earth terminal combined, since there is only one LT wire. These lugs are sort of laminated metal. Is my assumption about them being the earth correct? The white battery box contains 4 x AA Duracels.

The reason for my doubts is that I only seem to get a rather weak spark at the plug and a much brighter one at the +ve terminal when I break the circuit by hand. That doesn't sound good.

I'd like to get this sorted out off the motor so that I will know that it's one less reason for the thing not to run. I anyone can confirm that this set-up is correct -or tell me why it's no, I'd be very grateful.

P.S. Jim, did you enjoy your trip to the UK and our apalling weather?

Regards,

Norman

[Norman VantParticipant @normanvant32224]

Just a little query,

Does anyone know how to stop the vertical advertising banner obscuring the text on the right of the screen?

Regards,

Norman.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The central bar is a common negative of both the primary and secondary coils, as the chassis of teh bike/car would be negative grouind you can say its the earth.

You may also find my recent Buzz coil thread of use.

J

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

Hi Norman,

Good to hear from you again. A few comments re your setup in the pics.

1. The 4 AA batteries may not have enough current to operate it. I would start with a power supply able to supply at least 1 amp. Last year we discussed using wall wart power supplies with at least 1 amp rating at 12 VDC.

2. The plug wire and cap look like the suppressor type which have high internal resistance.The wire may also be a resistor type. Both these items will increase the need for higher drive current. If you can, substitute copper core plug wire, plain metal plug cap terminal and a non resistor plug (ie like a Champion CJ-8 for example) and try the circuit again. Before attempting to remove the plug wire from the coil, pull back the rubber boot and look for mould flash or sealant around the wire. If there is none, chances are the wire is screwed in onto a terminal which is just like a wood screw, down in the coil socket. The screw is intended to make contact with the plug wire core. At least that was the way these coild used to be connected to the wires. Some however used sealant or were moulded in place and these wires can not be removed without damaging the coil, so use caution. As I said if there is no mould flash or sealant, the wire can probably be screwed out easily.

Before altering anything though I would try driving the circuit as-is with more current.

Good luck JD

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