Replacement lathes. Recommendations?

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 03/05/2023 10:51:05:

Another industrial supplier that also supports education is XYZ. Not sure about cost but their manual trainer lathes may be appropiate

Manual Lathes

These wolud be more represenative than a mini-lathe if students are actually going into industry.
I was recently in the engineering department of a major UK university and they were using XYZ machines.
If it is just a general appreciation of using a lathe that is required than a larger "hobby" lathe may be OK.

Robert.

Would also recommend XYZ.

I can reel off a fairly long list of Uni's and FE colleges I've visited who have their products, and the technicians who run those workshops generally feel very positively about them.

Optimum also seems to be popular with FE Colleges for full size lathes.

Variable Speed might be the rub, as all the Unis and Colleges I've visited were running gearhead machines with 12-18 discreet speeds and a similar number of feeds, presumably to equip students for what they might expect to encounter in industry if they were asked to operate a manual lathe.

[HollowpointParticipant @hollowpoint]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 03/05/2023 10:41:31:

Posted by Hollowpoint on 03/05/2023 10:15:39:

Anything from Aximinster, Warco, Chester etc is a backwards step IMO.

A couple of Myford Super 7 Connoisseurs would probably be your best option.

Dunno about Axminster but Warco and Chester both sell Industrial machines. I hope no-one thinks hobby machines made down to a price are the best that can be done, they're not. I'm not aware of any hobbyist spending £17k on a Chinese industrial lathe, or similar made around the world. Be interesting to have a play with one – I'd expect a £17k machine to be rather better than my £3000 economy model.

I assume the Myford Super 7 Connoisseur suggestion is a joke? Good lathes in the hands of a considerate machinist, but surely too delicate for trainees. Myfords were never popular in schools, who generally bought more robust kit.

Dave

Oh sorry, I thought the op would want something that actually works and doesn't need new electronics every week. 🙄

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Or you could get a Warco that has had no electrical problems for 13 years or Sieg with none for 15. like wot I got

Opps forgot one LED failed on the Sieg which I got from the supplier no problem just have not bothered to fit it so it has been in a draw for 8 years.

Edited By JasonB on 03/05/2023 18:17:14

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

Looking at the cost of the machines mentioned here, I suspect that I will have to stick with my trusty old Chinese crap model !!

Anyone else in the same club ??

,In the days of old, very few could afford to pay £500 for any machine, how many could now afford £15000/£17000 ?, not too many I would think. Schools might be different.

I have often looked at some of these new machines in showrooms, but that,s all I did, just looked ! Looking at the prices, you,de need to bring a chair with you .

[Andrew EvansParticipant @andrewevans67134]

Posted by larry phelan 1 on 04/05/2023 09:09:37:

Looking at the cost of the machines mentioned here, I suspect that I will have to stick with my trusty old Chinese crap model !!

Anyone else in the same club ??

,In the days of old, very few could afford to pay £500 for any machine, how many could now afford £15000/£17000 ?, not too many I would think. Schools might be different.

I have often looked at some of these new machines in showrooms, but that,s all I did, just looked ! Looking at the prices, you,de need to bring a chair with you .

Machine tools have always been very expensive so I doubt they are any more expensive in real terms than they ever were.

[mgnbukParticipant @mgnbuk]

How do you currently handle such things as setting the spindle speed on the Boxfords, Tristan ?

I would have thought that letting 14 year olds loose on the workings of the machines (belt / back gear changes) would be frowned upon in educational circles (though I could be wrong ! ). Boxford underdrive machines are great here, as the rotating bits are in the base behind a lockable door, allowing the teacher / technician to pre-set the speed so that the pupil just has the start / stop buttons to control. The hobby size variable speed machines would possibly be problematic here – speed near instantly changeable from minimum to maximum with a 270 dgree twist of an easily accesible potentiometer on the headstock.

Screwcutting is another area where the hobby machines are generally more akin the the Boxford CUD (changewheels to set for each pitch), with few having a gearbox like the AUD. The industrial trainer lathes which have screwcutting gearboxes are larger, more powerful machines than the Boxford – not sure I would like to put an inexperienced 14 year old on one of those for their first turning experience.

Having had a look around at what is currently available (for my benefit as much as yours – I am mulling over a change ATM) one machine rather stands out – Warco's geared head GH600 lathe, currently on offer for £2860. This includes a stand, 3 & 4 jaw chucks, faceplate, machine light, fixed & travelling steadies, covered leadscrew, start/stop operation via a handle on the saddle + more. 12 speed geared headstock and screwcutting gearbox that cuts a wide range of metric & Imperial theads with just one changewheel change to go between the two , it is a bit larger than the Boxford but not as large as the industrial trainer machines & has similar capabilities to an AUD.

You could probably get 4 for your budget to replace all the Boxfords and have change.

Nigel B.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Andrew Evans on 04/05/2023 09:44:19:

Posted by larry phelan 1 on 04/05/2023 09:09:37:

Looking at the cost of the machines mentioned here, I suspect that I will have to stick with my trusty old Chinese crap model !!

Anyone else in the same club ??

,In the days of old, very few could afford to pay £500 for any machine, how many could now afford £15000/£17000 ?, not too many I would think. Schools might be different.

I have often looked at some of these new machines in showrooms, but that,s all I did, just looked ! Looking at the prices, you,de need to bring a chair with you .

Machine tools have always been very expensive so I doubt they are any more expensive in real terms than they ever were.

When the Myford ML7 came out in 1946 it cost about 40 Quid. According to an online calculator, that is equivalent to about 2,100 Quid today. About what a similar sized Sieg SC4 hobby lathe costs today.

[Tristan LuscombeParticipant @tristanluscombe46103]

I haven't been here all that long, mgnbuk, but it appears that historically the lathe speeds are left as they are in order to avoid grovelling around underneath messing with belts and stuff (I'm the technician, by the way, the teachers don't have a lot of mechanical experience and before I turned up they had been without a technician for a long time). They certainly don't interfere with back gears or anything like that. Our AUD is not used because we're waiting for the disconnect to get fixed, so I don't know how the gearbox is set up (I am aware that we have a box of assorted change gears, but we have so many different lathes of different vintages I have no idea what they're for and I've never had time to do an in depth investigation – we have some larger Harrisons in another workshop, they might be for those) and the lathes are badly installed so it's very hard to get at the gears anyway, the headstock ends are almost right up against a wall.

You're right about the potential concerns with a variable speed, I watch the students on the lathes like a hawk, but I can't be everywhere at once so a gearhead lathe would probably be better in the long run. I have looked at Warco lathes, we have an old one in the other workshop that the school had had for years but never bothered to have wired up, so I got it working when I arrived and although I know our service guys were rather scathing about it, it seems to do everything it's supposed to. Sadly I don't have any change gears for that either, I need to try to get finance to shell out for a new set.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I suppose it is all down to risk asessment, let them wind up the wick or let them change gear while the machine is running in which case the variable speed may cause less damage.

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

In my opinion Tristan, it would be the biggest mistake you will likely ever make to get rid of the Boxford lathes. If some are irreparably broken that is a different story. Anything you buy now, except top end very expensive industrial lathes will not be designed and made as well as the lathes you have. They and the South Bend lathes they were based on were designed specifically for use by people learning lathe ops, or using lathes infrequently, but at the time they could hold their own in toolrooms as well.

I'd suggest finding a technician that could do some reconditioning and refurbishment on the ones you have. Ultimately this may cost far less than new machines would.

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

You know it really niggles me when people talk of Chinese products bring 'crap'. Of course they aren't, our households would not function without Chinese products which do exactly what they say on the tin. How old is your service engineer? I would bet he is getting on in years and eaten away with resentment that the British machine tool industry now barely exists, and what is left merely assembles Chinese parts and hopes that by condemning the products damage will be done to the importers who he will subconsciously believe have brought about this situation. I don't have a Warco or Axminster machine but if I were to be starting again it would be an absolute no brainer as to what I would purchase, not only because there would be no British machine available within my price range but because even if there was Myford is a very dated design and leaves a great deal to be desired and is not suitable for educational purposes, IMO. BTW, I have a Myford 7R and if it were possible I would take it with me with the rest of my grave goods just like the other old warriors, but I would never buy another.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by JasonB on 03/05/2023 18:15:22:

Or you could get a Warco that has had no electrical problems for 13 years or Sieg with none for 15. like wot I got

Opps forgot one LED failed on the Sieg which I got from the supplier no problem just have not bothered to fit it so it has been in a draw for 8 years.

Edited By JasonB on 03/05/2023 18:17:14

+1 for that. My Warco's been run regularly for 8 years now with no electrical issues.

Ketan's cautions are well worth bearing in mind too. Supposedly solid British machines, even those allegedly designed for an educational environment, aren't immune from a careless speed change. A local heritage railway's Colchester Student recently lost all 13 teeth off one end-pinion of a central headstock gear through such an incident. In searching 2nd hand replacement sources, it became very clear that practically every other gear in the headstock could be had in good condition from a breaker's, but the particular gear in question was only available new-manufactured at a price close to the market value of the whole lathe. Obviously this crash has been happening often, for long enough for someone to spot a market niche.

[mgnbukParticipant @mgnbuk]

I suppose it is all down to risk asessment, let them wind up the wick or let them change gear while the machine is running in which case the variable speed may cause less damage.

Relatively easy to frustrate a careless / malicious speed change on the Warco GH600 gearhead machine – set the required speed then remove the handle from the speed change dial. It may be still possible to rotate the dial without the lever in place but, given it is detented, I suspect it would take two hands to do so.

Not so easy on a variable speed machine. The inverter equipped machines (WM Warco 280V IIRC) may work if the speed were preset & a cover fixed over the potentiomer, as the inverter should ramp the spindle up & down from standstill. But the "brushless motor" setups seem to require the pot to be used to stop the spindle before pressing the off button & start from the zero pot setting when starting (these drives don't seem have acceleration ramps & require the ramping to be done from the pot ? ) – so access to the pot required at all times ? Obviously damage to headstock gears isn't an issue here, but the pot is easily accessible to be easily "tweaked" by, say, another pupil while the machine was in use.

I would guess that bed wear would be a issue with a well used '60s Boxford. The Boxford bed top formation (all vees and flats + vertical edges) were gang milled in one operation originally. In the early '80s Boxford did re-machine worn beds but those days are long gone (along with the machines that used to do the job) , so I would guess that machining out bed wear would be a costly excercise now.

Nigel B.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Can't speak for the brushless lathes but my brushless mill stops and starts at whatever the pot is set at. The two brushed machines that I have – mill and Warco lathe I also start where ever the pot is positioned

[HollowpointParticipant @hollowpoint]

Posted by Chris Crew on 06/05/2023 15:25:28:

You know it really niggles me when people talk of Chinese products bring 'crap'. Of course they aren't, our households would not function without Chinese products which do exactly what they say on the tin. How old is your service engineer? I would bet he is getting on in years and eaten away with resentment that the British machine tool industry now barely exists, and what is left merely assembles Chinese parts and hopes that by condemning the products damage will be done to the importers who he will subconsciously believe have brought about this situation. I don't have a Warco or Axminster machine but if I were to be starting again it would be an absolute no brainer as to what I would purchase, not only because there would be no British machine available within my price range but because even if there was Myford is a very dated design and leaves a great deal to be desired and is not suitable for educational purposes, IMO. BTW, I have a Myford 7R and if it were possible I would take it with me with the rest of my grave goods just like the other old warriors, but I would never buy another.

That really is a mad post.

You recommend a Chinese lathe despite not having one, basing your opinion on the fact that our homes are filled with other completely unrelated Chinese stuff and disregard a service engineers opinion based on assumptions he may be old and bitter? 🤨

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

Posted by Hollowpoint on 06/05/2023 22:41:40:

That really is a mad post.

You recommend a Chinese lathe despite not having one, basing your opinion on the fact that our homes are filled with other completely unrelated Chinese stuff and disregard a service engineers opinion based on assumptions he may be old and bitter? 🤨

I read his post as expressing the economic realities of the situation, there are very few "western" manufacturers of manual machine tools left, and even the Taiwanese offerings like XYZ (which seem to be held as being of a more consistent and perhaps higher quality) are dwindling.

If money and availability were no object it would be easy to suggest a new Schaublin (Switzerland) or Trens (Slovenia)… But both are significant factors in any purchase.

.

Regards criticism of Far Eastern manufacturers, remember it's not all that long ago that the Eastern European options like Stanko, TOS and Poreba were treated with great suspicion for being cheap imports…

But are now viewed as being very desirable, quality machines, offering unique capabilities at a fair price (something which has kept those businesses going long after a lot of the British manufacturers folded), and it's accepted that the historically cheap pricing was really a reflection of the premium placed on acquiring foreign currency via export sales by those economies at the time.

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

"You recommend a Chinese lathe despite not having one, basing your opinion on the fact that our homes are filled with other completely unrelated Chinese stuff and disregard a service engineers opinion based on assumptions he may be old and bitter? "

With respect, I did not recommend any lathe, I stated that I do not believe Chinese products are 'crap' based on my experience of owning quite a few because there is mostly no other choice, whatever the brand may read. In fact you will have entered your comments on Chinese manufactured electronic equipment which you will have found works perfectly satisfactorily and will continue to do so.

I also stated that I would buy a Chinese lathe myself and that would have to be my only choice because I would not be able to afford a new 600-Group machine or Myford. The former, I believe, was actually using Far-East components in its machines and the latter is selling Chinese made accessories for use on its products. Also, I have not disregarded a service engineer's opinion, whatever age, experience or qualifications he may have as he is entitled to his view. I merely reserved the right to disagree with it which everyone's prerogative including yours in disagreeing with me. What I stated was that I suspected, that if he were of the older generation, his opinion may be coloured by a resentment that most products are now manufactured in China because this is a prejudice I have encountered in many of my contemporaries. They seem to recall almost subconsciously, with not a little nostalgia, the days when this country's economy was founded on manufacturing and this appears to motivate them to dismiss Chinese products as 'crap' when clearly they are not. This view appears to be supported by several other commentators in this thread who actually do own Chinese machine tools, found them to be very satisfactory and probably produce work of a very high standard upon them.

Edited By JasonB on 07/05/2023 06:51:54

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

Posted by mgnbuk on 06/05/2023 16:26:37

I would guess that bed wear would be a issue with a well used '60s Boxford. The Boxford bed top formation (all vees and flats + vertical edges) were gang milled in one operation originally. In the early '80s Boxford did re-machine worn beds but those days are long gone (along with the machines that used to do the job) , so I would guess that machining out bed wear would be a costly excercise now.

Nigel B.

There's a good number of machine tool reconditioners out there, and the boxford beds are so small that it would fit the capabilities of many larger grinding shops, without needing to go to someone with a dedicated bed-grinder.

They don't necessarily advertise themselves all that well though.

Off the top of my head DSG now specialise in the rebuild of lathes (not just their own), or AMT Machine Tools (Higham on the Hill) and GD Machinery (Tinsley) will rebuild pretty much anything, and both come up competitive compared to buying new.

If it's purely a case of removing bed wear SNA Grinding (Attercliffe) could do the job for a mere fraction of the cost of replacement.

It's worth Tristan at least getting prices from several reconditioners for sending the lathes out at the start of the summer holidays to be overhauled, and comparing that to replacement cost, in his specific situation it may well be an economical solution for the department.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

I’m with Jelly on getting some quotes for refurbing the Boxfords.*

It may be, though, that the people in charge of your budget will inevitably feel that buying new replacements is the way to go, on the grounds that any 70 year old lathe, however well refurbed, will still be outdated old iron compared to new alternatives, and kids need to be taught on up-to-date equipment.

If you do buy new, what about more “big greens”, i.e. your Warco GH1322 that you talked about last year? Did that ever get going again?

*If your department do end up selling off the Boxfords, can I be in with a shout?

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

Just reading the comments regarding Far East v "Real" machines and I suspect this debate will go on for a long time yet. It may be hard to accept, but facts are facts and these imports are here to stay [just like the Jap bikes ]

Like the bikes, I think they can and will improve with time, since they now have the market.

Someone mentioned TOS lathes ? I always thought that they were highly regarded although I never recall seeing any small ones, they were all big machines built for serious work

Perhaps there is an element of "Rose tinted glasses" here?, if so, time to ditch it, those days are gone.

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

Posted by larry phelan 1 on 07/05/2023 08:01:07:

Someone mentioned TOS lathes ? I always thought that they were highly regarded although I never recall seeing any small ones, they were all big machines built for serious work

That was me, I have heard older engineers describe how they were treated with real suspicion/condescension when they first arrived on the UK & US market… Until people got to using them and the opinions rapidly began to shift.

The smallest lathe they made was the S28 Toolroom Lathe, same capacity as a Warco WM280, but fitted with a 4hp motor and weighing in at 1.5 tonnes!

Edit: I think I may be wrong and they did some 160mm and 90mm capacity lathes too designed to compete with the Schaublin 102 and 125, but only in very small numbers.

In any case, not a serious recommendation for Tristan as they have a nasty habit of equipping their lathes with both huge motors and separate rapid feeds, both a liability around young, cocky teenagers.

Edited By Jelly on 07/05/2023 08:50:35

[mgnbukParticipant @mgnbuk]

There's a good number of machine tool reconditioners out there, and the boxford beds are so small that it would fit the capabilities of many larger grinding shops, without needing to go to someone with a dedicated bed-grinder.

I spent 27 years working for a CNC machine tool retrofit / rebuilding company, so do have a bit of prior experience of bed reginders, Jelly. I don't share your optimism regarding finding a company with the machinery, experience or inclination to regrind a Boxford bed for an economical price. The companies my former employer used to use have long gone now. While a Myford can be reground with any surface grinder of sufficient capacity, machining 6 angled faces + 1 flat on a Boxford is a bit more involved – a lot of setting up time at commercial rates. Being soft the Boxford bed could be milled or planed (if you could find anyone with a planer these days ), but still a lot of setup. Then there is the labour to strip and rebuild the machine + replace any other worn or damaged parts & possibly repaint – I would guesstimate be that a reasonable Boxford rebuild would be at least twice the price of buying a Chinese replacement machine like the gearhead Warco.

Not certain about the current incarnation of DS&G, but in the care of the previous owner of the name there was little more than a place-holding website. That company was in Halifax, though, and I note the current incarnation are in Preston. Their website doesn't give much away about any in-house machining capabilities.

Nigel B.

Nigel B.

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

Thanks for your reply Jelly,

I did hear that they were looked at sideways when they first showed up, but as you said, that changed rapidly !. As I suspected, they were made for serious work, with a 4 HP motor hanging on to them, they were not intended for the hobby shop.

I remember looking at one years ago that was for sale, but it was far too big for my needs or space. It must have weighted about 3 tons with a motor like a barrel. The man who sent me to look at it knew nothing about lathes.

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

Posted by mgnbuk on 07/05/2023 10:44:04:

There's a good number of machine tool reconditioners out there, and the boxford beds are so small that it would fit the capabilities of many larger grinding shops, without needing to go to someone with a dedicated bed-grinder.

I spent 27 years working for a CNC machine tool retrofit / rebuilding company, so do have a bit of prior experience of bed reginders, Jelly. I don't share your optimism regarding finding a company with the machinery, experience or inclination to regrind a Boxford bed for an economical price. The companies my former employer used to use have long gone now. While a Myford can be reground with any surface grinder of sufficient capacity, machining 6 angled faces + 1 flat on a Boxford is a bit more involved – a lot of setting up time at commercial rates. Being soft the Boxford bed could be milled or planed (if you could find anyone with a planer these days ), but still a lot of setup. Then there is the labour to strip and rebuild the machine + replace any other worn or damaged parts & possibly repaint – I would guesstimate be that a reasonable Boxford rebuild would be at least twice the price of buying a Chinese replacement machine like the gearhead Warco.

Not certain about the current incarnation of DS&G, but in the care of the previous owner of the name there was little more than a place-holding website. That company was in Halifax, though, and I note the current incarnation are in Preston. Their website doesn't give much away about any in-house machining capabilities.

Nigel B.

Nigel B.

You hit the nail on the head with finding the right supplier being the key.

Perhaps I'm less concerned by it because my previous job was as an R&D Manager, and having complex parts made or remanufactured in small batches or one offs was something that I did regularly with reasonable success.

It inevitably involved a lot of ringing round, following leads from one small business owner to another following a chain of affable middle aged men* who know someone who might help.

It can be frustrating in a hurry, but is otherwise usually quite an interesting use of an afternoon.

*(It was usually men, although I noted with interest that several of the more successful businesses would have me talking to a bloke on the shop floor to confirm they could do it, but see me negotiating with an extremely shrewd woman who was looking after the business side of things).

.

I know SNA Grinding have several machines more than big enough to do the job no sweat (600×3000mm max capacity), but they just do grinding so it would be on someone else (possibly the technicians, who not normally being paid for the holiday period in many schools may welcome the overtime) to do all the disassembly and refitting, so far from an ideal solution.

AMT Machine Tools would probably be in a position to regrind and definitely in a position to mill the beds in house, when I last saw them they were reassembling a Webster and Bennett VBL which had just had the columns come back from being reground.

.

Price wise, I have to respect you have a greater knowledge of that market than I do, but I do know a community organisation I work with paid about 2.5k for a complete overhaul of a 9×24 surface grinder including bearing replacement, and could dig out the name of the supplier if I go through my old emails.

Similarly someone of this parish (I forget who) had discussions with DSG in Preston and found that it would be cheaper to buy a second hand DSG 13" or 17" and have it reconditioned with them than it would be to buy a modern Chester or Warco of equivalent capacity… But the logistics of doing so would have been a challenge for them as a private individual.

.

In Tristan's shoes I would definitely get recon quotes for comparison, if only to give justification to the school's administration that all options have been considered should he find he needs to push the suggested budget a bit to get something fit for purpose for his students (who are very lucky to have both the facilities and teachers they do).

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Fascinating post which I am following with interest, from my own experience owning & using British iron both in industry & as a hobby, rebuilding a Myford 7 and now with a 3 year old Warco, I would retire the old lathes and start afresh with new gear unless the OP wants a load of grief trying to resurrect 70 year old machines. No right or wrong answer to this problem.

Tony

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