Recommended Beginners Measuring Tool Set

[William Harvey 1Participant @williamharvey1]

Hi,

I am looking for a decent set of machinist measuring tools, suitable for a beginner. Something like this, but there are a few tools in there that I have no idea what they are for

Thanks

[William Harvey 1Participant @williamharvey1]

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Hello William

I'd buy just a few things to get going. My list would include a good 6" and 12" rule, a decent vernier caliper and a 1" or 25mm micrometer (dependent on preference).

For the vernier, you could buy a cheap digital one but I have both kinds and still tend to use the manual one (although the zeroing facility of the digital does come in handy sometimes) but my manual one has a 'thumb' fine adjuster that has a much better feel than the digital.  Some here will say you don't need a Mic (or vice versa) but for smaller (accurate) measurements – you really need a Mic. The Vernier has a larger range but is also more open to user "interpretation" – and sometimes you do need to be able compare to the nearest thou.  

I won't try to define the attributes of a good rule – again opinions seem to vary. I like stainless steel and nice engraved measures – also (as my eyes age) for me, less is more. I don't really want 1/64th's at the useful end for instance, so my favoured rules are the ones with simpler/fewer increments these days…

That's it – that will get you going I think. Oh, a simple centre punch of course (unless you are going straight to DROs and not passing GO of course!

Good luck and enjoy!

Regards,

IanT

 

Edited By IanT on 12/05/2021 22:14:17

[Jon LawesParticipant @jonlawes51698]

Although this is a model engineering forum there are many branches of that, and many different opinions on what are worthwhile and useful tools. It also depends on what you intend to machine yourself. Personally I am a 41 year old machinist who is relatively new to the hobby (less than ten years), I make small steam engines and fittings mainly so my opinions will be based around that. Others will have different opinions based on when they started, what they make, and who taught them (among other things!).

Personally I think you need a digital caliper, a vernier caliper is cheaper but if you don't do it a lot a vernier scale is slower to read and easier to make mistakes on. Many people will disagree with me but to be honest the vernier scale is really dying out with many newer model engineers due to the availability of cheap digital equipment which is even available at the likes of Aldi (for a given quality). I would buy a Machine DRO or similar entry level digital caliper. The other advantage of digital is that you can switch between metric and imperial at a moments notice. Also by zeroing the caliper at the size you wish to achieve you can measure what you have machined so far, take the figure and divide by two, and that's the exact amount you need to take off.

For more precise measurement you would need a micrometer. The cost jumps significantly when you go digital. I don't use it much (for most of my machining the digital caliper is fine for the accuracy I need to work to) so you could if on a budget stick with a vernier scale, and take on the chin that it is going to be slower to use for a novice. It may be a very unpopular opinion, but for the things I make I barely use my digital mic. The digital caliper goes down to half a thou, that's probably all I need.

A Square (as shown in that kit) is virtually essential (again, just my opinion).

A good scriber.

A bottle of engineers marking out fluid. Some people use a sharpie, I use both depending on what I'm working on.

Automatic Centre punch. I like Starrett, the quality is excellent, eclipse are also good.

A six inch rule is handy, but you will probably find yourself grabbing the digital caliper when you need to measure something.

Dividers.

Thats the first that come to mind, but if you are talking about measuring tools only as per your question, then the digital caliper I would say should be the first thing you spend your pennies on. I've mainly described marking out tools.

I used to think the Zeus book was handy but to be honest with a mobile phone in your pocket you are two or three clicks away from websites which tell you the exact stud spacing for a given PCD (for example) or whatever your question is. I find that quicker than flicking through the Zeus book. Your mileage may vary depending on your personal preferences of course.

I've attempted to answer what is a very broad question, so I apologise if I have missed the mark. I'm interested in what opinions follow my reply, because it will almost certainly end with me buying more tools!

Best of luck

Jon

[Jon LawesParticipant @jonlawes51698]

Ian Replied while I was typing, but it sounds like we broadly agree!

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

All as above +.

Also take into consideration whether you will be doing metric or imperial. If doing both as most of us olden's do then go digital with the calipers. It is only a press of a button.

The set you show would get you up & running , but you will soon find you want better & will end up buying all that stuff again. But of a good quality brand. Be warned it gets expensive. Ask me how i know. On the flip of the coin, there are always lots of good quality 2nd hand stuff on ebay etc. I buy a lot of stuff from car booties. The people selling the stuff rarely know what it is ,. So bargains can be had. If you are a beginner then may i bid you a happy future in this sort of work. It is a very enjoyable & satisfying hobby. Also don't be afraid to ask for help on here. There are lots of members all itching to give you good advice. Regards.

Steve.

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Me too. Humm

Steve.

[William Harvey 1Participant @williamharvey1]

Ok sorry, I do have a digital set of Calipers, 12” ruler, Micrometer set and Telescopic Bore Gauges (all bought for an engine I am reconditioning.

what I am lacking is a small square, good scribes and auto punch.

I also need to be able to transfer measurements using Calipers and maybe a compass if such a thing exists for metal. This is for marking out cylinder head chamber profiles amongst other things.

[Jon LawesParticipant @jonlawes51698]

Then a bottle of Dykem blue is what you need to paint the surfaces with before marking, as for the compass I think you are after spring dividers.

The auto punch are usually referred to as an Automatic Centre Punch, I use a Starrett 18A and think its one of the best I've ever used (I've owned a few, and used a few during my apprenticeship). It will cost about £20 to £25. Eclipse came a close second for me.

I don't have a brand I can recommend for the Engineers Square set as mine all came off the Ark.

Again, this is all just personal opinion, I've no connection to any of these brands.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

A digital caliper and a 1" or 25mm micrometer are a must in addition to the linked set. If you can only afford one, get the caliper first and the mike later when more precision is required.

[AdrianRParticipant @adrianr18614]

I have a bottle of Dykem blue, it sits on the shelf never used as I keep forgetting to get a small brush. Instead, I use cheap permanent markers (3 for £1) So if you want to use Dykem try and get one with a built-in brush.

A really cheap plastic digital vernier is also useful. Mine cost £3 from eBay, is 0.1mm resolution and lives on the bench. Great for quick checks e.g. is that bar 1/4" or 6mm and I don't have to worry about ruining it.

For dividers go for spring dividers, they have the adjustment screw and are much easier to set. Another useful tool is an Odd Leg Jenny and likewise, go for the spring version.

Unless you are a CAD wiz, an Oxford Helix maths drawing set.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

So not really a set needed just a few items.

Almost all the ME suppliers will sell squares from 50mm upwards that will be square enough for most things if you feel the need for more accuracy then a named brand such as Moore & Wright will do then in class B.

As you are talking about marking out you should really be using a dot punch for this not a ctr punch, they tend to come individually and need a hammer to hit them though you could regrind a second auto punch if you prefer.

Compass for metal is called a pair of dividers which have points on both legs, screw adjustable are better than firm leg and 100-150mm long depending on the size of work you are doing.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Which items do you not know about? Items in that kit are listed as:

• 1). 6" Steel Rule 2). 4" Brass Pocket Caliper 3). Bore Gauge 4). Screwcutting Gauge – 5). Met/imp Screw Pitch Gauge 6). 4" Dividers 7). Automatic Centrepunch 8). Angle Gauge 9).Pocket Scriber 10). 4" Engineers Square 11). Protractor

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by JasonB on 13/05/2021 07:10:20:

[…]

As you are talking about marking out you should really be using a dot punch for this not a ctr punch, they tend to come individually and need a hammer to hit them though you could regrind a second auto punch if you prefer.

[…]

.

Please forgive the digression [already] … but I wonder what it would take to produce a really good ‘automatic dot punch’ and whether anyone does so.

Tungsten carbide point; close-tolerances; light spring .. etc.

MichaelG.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I'm not sure I would really want an auto dot punch particularly if you want to start pulling a wayward initial dot over to one side as a gentle tap is likely to be more controlled than a set "hit" from the auto one even with as you say a light spring.

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

Still have all the tools I bought from the time I started work and still have them 63 years later,which measuring & prescion tools do I still use most, for hand and machine work,1 inch M & W micrometer,6 and 12 inch rules flexible 1/2 inch wide,small dot(prick) punch ,centre punch 3/4 pound hammer,mercer dial gauge,reading .001 ins, surface gauge, squares ,one M&W prescision all hardened,4inch square (cost me an arm and leg)plus a cheaper 6inch square. M&W surface gauge ,3 inch spring adjustable dividers these have rectangular legs at the time round leg dividers were much more expensive,since them I have aquired dividers with round legs which are a lot nicer to use.I have an Eclipse spring centre punch which was my fathers,I never use it a prick punch is far more accurate,and cheaper. Mitituyo 6 inch dial caliper 30 years old, ok for approximate measurements gets used a lot when roughing out work on the lathe,never use them for finish dimensions, When I took early retirement and did commercial work I aquired a lot more equipment plus as a hobby I got on to restoring larger stationary engines, Most of this equipment was just aquired,and a lot bought at auto jumbles and used tool dealers,buying tools made by the best uk and usa makers, eg M&W,Starrett,Brown and Sharpe,Eclipse. Boot sales are not a reliable source old precision tools are often worn and very often overpriced though there can be bargains.

[AdrianRParticipant @adrianr18614]

I thought all automatic center punches were adjustable. My one can go from a flee peck to meteor crater by turning the end cap.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Without seeing the contents of the set it's difficult to judge how well-made the tools are but they're probably OK. You can always upgrade later.

Much depends on what you do. Here's my take on the contents:

1). 6" Steel Rule – much used.
2). 4" Brass Pocket Caliper – little used, replaced by a Digital Caliper, which is!
3). Bore Gauge – Don't have one, but only because I keep forgetting to order it.
4). Screwcutting Gauge – Rarely used because I almost always cut threads with inserts and don't angle the toolpost. (The gauge is useful when threads are cut with an HSS cutter held at at angle.)
5). Met/imp Screw Pitch Gauge – much used to check threads. Imperial vs metric, plus fine vs coarse.
6). 4" Dividers – useful, but little used. I also have bow, inside, outside, and jenny calipers. The Jenny calipers are my favourite, see below
7). Automatic Centrepunch – much used
8). Angle Gauge – don't have one, replaced by Digital meter, protractor, or
9).Pocket Scriber – much used
10). 4" Engineers Square – much used
11). Protractor – rarely used, replaced by Angle blocks and Digital Angle Meter

Old school technique depended on marking out. This involves painting lumps of metal with marking blue fluid, and carefully scribing lines locating edges and holes. The lines are drawn relative to a reference, and at right-angles, which makes the Engineers' square valuable. Holes are marked with crossed lines, and centre-popped to guide a twist drill, or locate dividers. A surface table and height gauge are also valuable if this method is adopted seriously.

Marking out is particularly useful your only power tool is a lathe. For example, drilling off-centre holes, the work is clamped to a facing plate so that the centre pop is aligned with a drill held in the tailstock.

But marking out may not be necessary today. If you own a Digital Caliper and a Milling Machine, especially if the mill is fitted with a DRO, it's possible to dispense with marking out and marking out tools. Marking out is a complete waste of time when CNC machines are available, but in my manual workshop I do a kind of shorthand marking out, intended to remind me where the reference points, holes and edges are, but the actual accuracy is provided by edge-finding, DRO, and other methods.

Knowing how to mark-out is valuable, but you may find it's little used, Hence some of the tools in that set may stay in the box forever!

Off-the-cuff, missing from that set:

• Micrometer – vital
• Centre-finder
• Fine pointed centre-punch and hammer. (Used to accurately locate holes for the automatic punch)
• Squares in different sizes: 4" is fine, but larger and smaller sizes may be helpful
• Edge-finders and wobblers
• Jenny, or Hermaphrodite, Caliper

Tool quality is a matter of debate. Professional engineers avoid words like 'quality' and 'decent' because they are technically meaningless. Instead, they engage brain and define what they want in terms of 'fit for purpose' and 'value for money'. What's meant by 'fit for purpose' and 'value for money' varies with individuals and depends hugely on what they are doing.

I take a utilitarian line – the cheapest tool that will do the job is good enough, and if it's not good enough I replace it. This saves a great deal of worry about breaking and wearing them out, having them nicked, or the workshop becoming a burden on my children. Is this stuff valuable or not?

To me, tools are for using. Others are thoroughly irritated by anything other than the best, or at least what they think is the best. (In my book condition is far more important than reputation.) Before WW2, there was a sharp divide between well-made and inferior tools. There was much value in the advice 'buy the best you can afford'. The advice is less sound today because advances in technology have given us mid-range tools, which are neither top-of-the range or complete rubbish. I go for mid-range, and find them satisfactory – mostly. Choose more carefully if you have a solid professional requirement for reliable tools, or enjoy 'quality'.

Probably the best way of learning what's good and bad about tools is to use them. That set could be worth £30 for the learning experience alone!

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 13/05/2021 10:37:39

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by JasonB on 13/05/2021 10:03:44:

I'm not sure I would really want an auto dot punch particularly if you want to start pulling a wayward initial dot over to one side as a gentle tap is likely to be more controlled than a set "hit" from the auto one even with as you say a light spring.

.

Fair comment, Jason … I was just pondering :

… Get the auto-punch design right, and one might never have a wayward dot to pull.

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 13/05/2021 10:33:46:

[…]

Tool quality is a matter of debate. Professional engineers avoid words like 'quality' and 'decent' because they are technically meaningless. Instead, they engage brain and define what they want in terms of 'fit for purpose' and 'value for money'. What's meant by 'fit for purpose' and 'value for money' varies with individuals and depends hugely on what they are doing.

[…]

.

I will accept a gentle wrist-slap for using the expression really good … but, that was just a ‘working title’ whilst I think about what specification would be required for me to never feel the need to move a dot.

… just part of the specification process !

MichaelG.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Bear in mind that automatic centre punches, as opposed to traditional ones, will only be useful if you can firmly hold the work with one hand [or in a vice] while you depress the punch with the other. If it's not convenient or possible to do this, then traditional centre punches are a better choice.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, well I have a couple of the auto punches of the same design as the one in that set, they do produce a very small dot and when on the lowest setting it can be adjusted, but only a couple of times, mine don't produce a centre large enough for most drills above about 1.5mm, so after marking with one of these, I use either a hammer centre punch or a broader auto punch to produce a satisfactory centre punch mark.

The set above looks good value for the money, and I'm not putting it down or being derogatory, but it reminds me of something that one might find in a school metal work classroom or a college for first year students for training fundamentals in measuring and marking out, but that doesn't mean it's the only place for one.

SOD. I find jenny's are OK for some things, like marking off from the end of a bar or thickish plate, but for sheet metal the odd leg one is much more useful.

Regards Nick.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Posted by AdrianR on 13/05/2021 07:09:14:

I have a bottle of Dykem blue, it sits on the shelf never used as I keep forgetting to get a small brush. Instead, I use cheap permanent markers (3 for £1) So if you want to use Dykem try and get one with a built-in brush.

you may find the Dykem has a brush included in the lid, the smaller bottles often do. If you have to use a separate brush then a pot of solvent to keep it in will be handy or the brush will soon be solid.

Mike

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, well I have a couple of the auto punches of the same design as the one in that set, they do produce a very small dot and when on the lowest setting it can be adjusted, but only a couple of times, mine don't produce a centre large enough for most drills above about 1.5mm, so after marking with one of these, I use either a hammer centre punch or a broader auto punch to produce a satisfactory centre punch mark.

The set above looks good value for the money, and I'm not putting it down or being derogatory, but it reminds me of something that one might find in a school metal work classroom or a college for first year students for training fundamentals in measuring and marking out, but that doesn't mean it's the only place for one.

SOD. I find jenny's are OK for some things, like marking off from the end of a bar or thickish plate, but for sheet metal the odd leg one is much more useful.

Regards Nick.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

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Edited By Nicholas Farr on 13/05/2021 12:16:31

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