Re-creating Brunel chains

[Chris GunnParticipant @chrisgunn36534]

I have been tasked with helping to produce a 3d representation of IK Brunel standing in front of the huge chains, I am sure everyone has seen this picture. However the question is, how to reproduce the chains. We have thought of making them from card, or some form of tube, stockinette or layflat polythene and filling the tube with something, and then bending the tube into a chain link. We wondered if we could fill polythene layflat tube with builders foam, but we are not sure if the foam would attack the polythene. We also thought of using the thin balloons used by clowns and so on to make balloon animals. Here the question is is it possible to spray paint balloons?

Does anyone know the answer to these questions, or have any other ideas to make the links? This is for a temporary village project, so the budget is low. We would be happy to recycle something suitable.

Thanks Chris Gunn

[Chris GunnParticipant @chrisgunn36534]

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

First thought is that you're going to need a lot of links!

If you doing this at 1:1 scale then (from memory of the picture) the links each look about 12" long so whatever they are going to be made from will need a fair amount of raw material.

Paper mache comes to mind as being fairly cheap, creating a mould or former for a closed link is one thing, but producing the links would be a slow process unless you had several moulds.

Another thought, what about vacuum forming front and back halves using a hot air gun and thin 'blister' pack type material, then paint.

Ian P

[lee websterParticipant @leewebster72680]

Maybe air-drying clay would do the trick? Or real chain with an added middle bit.

Good luck!

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Presumably life sized?

When you look at the picture, that is a lot of chain links in the background, and not an easy shape to first of all make, and then link together. For a village project you might be best to look at a painted backdrop behind a 3D figure of the man. Or a computer printed backdrop done by a signwriter or advertising display printer or one of those mobs that do "skins" to go on vehicles and displays etc. They could even scan the original photo, photoshop the extra chain in where old IK is blocking the view and then print it out on a lifesized piece of signboard etc. Cheapest option might be to get a volunteer artist to paint the backdrop.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

spray painted animal balloons sounds the easiest route

[Simon CollierParticipant @simoncollier74340]

How about plastic conduit? Comes in several diameters and probably could be formed around a radius if softened with paint stripping heat gun. Relatively cheap.

[Alan CharlestonParticipant @alancharleston78882]

Hi Chris,

What about pvc waste pipe and 180 degree bends. Might be a bit expensive.

Regards,

Alan

[John McNamaraParticipant @johnmcnamara74883]

A Mid size CNC Router Could be used to make them one half at a time.
For material high density insulating foam panel.

Looking at the picture the links look about 600 overall made from 100-120mm forged bar.
I used IKB's arms a a reference.

I would make them whole then saw them in two to allow them to be joined then re-glued to make a long chain.

Once assembled the length of chain could be sanded and filled where needed then several coats of acrylic lacquer.

The chain does not have to be perfect.
As a final coat "Rust" paint finish is available.

I assume the chain will be exhibited indoors.

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

IK Brunel was smoking a cigar, with chains in the back ground – was this the first "Chain smoker" ?

Question the suitability of plaster , where will the montage be stood, and how much chain do you want, but it would be fairly easy to make a half mold of a link (Ie: half of a vertical link split down its vertical axis) and pour plaster of Paris in and then slosh the plaster around until it set. (We used to make male formers for aircraft ventilation ducts, when dry, wrap glass fibre around them and once the resin was set, smash the plaster away from the resin.).

I digress, once the half links (which would be hollow with a wall thickness of say 1/4" or 6mm), they then could be stuck together to make a link at the same time linking to the next one. Plaster of Paris is surprisingly strong.

So looking at a vertical string of chain, you would make up these halves and stick a LH half to a RH half to make a link.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Here is the pic, showing the extent of chain needed to be made. Big job, however it is done. Material choice would have to take into account the accumulated weight and what framework will support it. I would still opt for a painted/printed backdrop though. Such dioramas are commonly used in museums etc. (Or were before screens and videos took over. And now virtual reality.)

Edited By Hopper on 05/03/2023 07:47:58

Edited By Hopper on 05/03/2023 07:53:55

[Iain DownsParticipant @iaindowns78295]

This may be a bit radical, but I would be tempted to create the backdrop (on the computer) with a drawing program of some kind. Then photoshop a picture of the person in front.

In fact, you could probably scan in the photo above and simply replace the Mr Brunel with you.

A program like blender would let you create the chains 'photo-realistically' (it's used for cinema quality animation). There would be a learning curve, but probably less than carving out 100 foot long chain links.

Iain

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Chris Gunn on 04/03/2023 22:26:19:

I have been tasked with helping to produce a 3d representation of IK Brunel standing in front of the huge chains,

[…]

Does anyone know the answer to these questions, or have any other ideas to make the links? This is for a temporary village project, so the budget is low. We would be happy to recycle something suitable.

Thanks Chris Gunn

.

In the current eco-political climate …I would suggest that making a [dare I still say ‘female’ ?] mould and then using papier mâché to form thin half-shells might be the least-offending process.

All good recyclable stuff, and lots of community involvement.

MichaelG.

[vic neweyParticipant @vicnewey60017]

As someone who worked for 18 years on BBC scenery and props and then worked as a scale modelmaker I would probably have used common foam pipe cladding, Non of the links are shown completely around so joins can be completely hidden and cuts made to assist the curves.

We had available a thick grey texture treatment made by Idenden which would then be coated all over before paint treatments for rust etc but there are ways to substitute this using things like Artex powder in thick emulsion paint.

Edited By vic newey on 05/03/2023 10:24:42

[Mike HurleyParticipant @mikehurley60381]

Its not too clear to me how large the finished item is to be? life sized, 12 ins tall ? If big, the the photoshop printed backgrounds are a non starter, also papier mache and plster would reuire a lot of material and time / effort whereas as its for a temporary village project & the budget is low you can't expect miracles – to my way of thinking the balloon suggestions seem to be promising, quick, cheap and with a bit of care should look ok.

Can you clarify final size?

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Mike Hurley on 05/03/2023 10:05:37:

… If big, the the photoshop printed backgrounds are a non starter, …

Why? It is how they do giant billboards, the sides of buses, tradesmen's vans and all sorts of things these days. They will even do your whole car in the colour and graphics of your choice and mould it to the shape of the body work and stick it on, indistinguishable from a new paintjob but a lot cheaper.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by vic newey on 05/03/2023 09:59:30:

As someone who worked for 18 years on BBC scenery and props and then worked as a scale modelmaker I would probably have used common foam pipe cladding…

My hero! Having watched several dramas with wobbly sets – remember Crossroads – I started paying much more attention to the backgrounds, positively looking for mistakes and anachronisms. The difficulty of spotting them is a tribute to whoever put the scenery together. Bit like watching a magician: I know it's a trick, but rarely see how the illusion is pulled off.

Spotting British Leyland indicator lamps on Daleks was an early success, and the occasional double yellow line, TV aerial or PVC drainpipe is a rare joy in period dramas. Jeremy Brett's Sherlock Holmes failed to notice an electric cable whilst checking out an adjacent clue; I wondered if it was left in as a joke? Been watching Roger Moore as The Saint on TalkingPictures. Quite a lot of scenes are filmed on pretty much the same street set. The Saint lives there in London, but with minor modifications, the same layout turns out to be in South America, Paris, Rome, Berlin, Amsterdam and Istanbul.

With all the resources of Hollywood behind them, the Mission Impossible TV series often messed up by insisting on driving a characteristically American box-utility van outside the US. Unfortunately they were rare in Europe, and completely out-of-place when the team were meant to be operating behind the Iron-Curtain. Such carelessness would get the team arrested about 5 minutes after starting the engine!

I've watched a lot of telly in my time though, and the backgrounds and scenery are generally remarkably effective. Are there any trade secrets Vic?

Dave

[Mike HurleyParticipant @mikehurley60381]

Posted by Hopper on 05/03/2023 10:29:40:

Posted by Mike Hurley on 05/03/2023 10:05:37:

… If big, the the photoshop printed backgrounds are a non starter, …

Why? It is how they do giant billboards, the sides of buses, tradesmen's vans and all sorts of things these days. They will even do your whole car in the colour and graphics of your choice and mould it to the shape of the body work and stick it on, indistinguishable from a new paintjob but a lot cheaper.

Yes, but as I said, ' its for a temporary village project & the budget is low', so I wouldn't have thought the expense would be justified

p.s. Acrylic spray paint works fine on balloons.

Edited By Mike Hurley on 05/03/2023 11:48:13

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Mike Hurley on 05/03/2023 11:46:16:

Posted by Hopper on 05/03/2023 10:29:40:

Posted by Mike Hurley on 05/03/2023 10:05:37:

… If big, the the photoshop printed backgrounds are a non starter, …

Why? It is how they do giant billboards, the sides of buses, tradesmen's vans and all sorts of things these days. They will even do your whole car in the colour and graphics of your choice and mould it to the shape of the body work and stick it on, indistinguishable from a new paintjob but a lot cheaper.

Yes, but as I said, ' its for a temporary village project & the budget is low', so I wouldn't have thought the expense would be justified

p.s. Acrylic spray paint works fine on balloons.

Edited By Mike Hurley on 05/03/2023 11:48:13

[egaParticipant @ega]

Looking yet again at this iconic photo I noticed the cross member in each link which I think would complicate some of the fabrication suggestions.

What was the function of the cross member?

Edited By ega on 05/03/2023 12:00:01

[Mike HurleyParticipant @mikehurley60381]

I think that the idea was so that when the chain was not in tension, the links remained in a better 'linear' sequence rahter than sagging too much. The purpose being that whe tension was applied, there was considerably less 'snap' which could otherwise result in sudden failure.

It would also tend to resist the 'figure of 8' necking of links under extreme strain

regards

[vic neweyParticipant @vicnewey60017]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 05/03/2023 11:03:27:

Posted by vic newey on 05/03/2023 09:59:30:

As someone who worked for 18 years on BBC scenery and props and then worked as a scale modelmaker I would probably have used common foam pipe cladding…

 

I've watched a lot of telly in my time though, and the backgrounds and scenery are generally remarkably effective. Are there any trade secrets Vic?

Dave

——————————————————————

Hello Dave,

 

lots of things have changed since I worked on TV scenery, Pebble Mill did a run of Charles dickens series one each year and also we did All Creatures G&S several times, now Channel 5 do it.

Look at the credits on practically anything of the BBC now and see they have farmed it out to private film makers. I can always spot whether a room is part of a set however because of the way a room is made.

Sets are built of large panels called "flats" which are various widths up to 3600mm wide, there are door flats and window flats which are usually not much wider than the door or window and they used to put a 200mm return which you would not see in a real room. The BBC still insisted on the flats being covered in calico canvas, a throwback to theatre sets, and it annoyed the hell out of us as sometimes when they had been wall papered it use to get wrinkles or go baggy. ITV scrapped that idea though as it was pointless although ripping it all off was made easier when the flattage was being used for the next set.

Most flattage was 3600 Mtrs high and corners sometimes had a " triangular ceiling piece" in case the camera caught the top of the set. Sets were held together with ropes and cleats on corners, once again a throwback to theatres, another method was using "pin hinges" where the pin was removed and substituted for a bent nail! This was for flats called "swingers" that could be swung open to allow a different camera angle. This was often the only way to film in large sets called " composites" which often had several rooms.

All flats were supported on the back by rows of stage props with heavy iron weights on the floor, Crossroads maybe didn't bother or the scene shifters were too lazy to fit enough to hold it rock steady, doorways sometimes had two or three weights piled on the bottom of a prop.

For TV programme with a number of episodes then the set had to be dismantled and rebuilt a number of times which always caused damage and the corners had to be made good with strips of matching wallpaper and then aged to blend in.

Film sets were very different and were built solidly nailed together and even plastered before decoration sometimes. Now I think they use real interior rooms at every opportunity, with modern cameras with low light settings it must be a lot cheaper than having sets built and booking studio time which did not permit running over without huge penalties

 

Edited By vic newey on 05/03/2023 13:01:05

[egaParticipant @ega]

Posted by Mike Hurley on 05/03/2023 12:13:23:

I think that the idea was so that when the chain was not in tension, the links remained in a better 'linear' sequence rahter than sagging too much. The purpose being that whe tension was applied, there was considerably less 'snap' which could otherwise result in sudden failure.

It would also tend to resist the 'figure of 8' necking of links under extreme strain

regards

Thanks for this.

According to the relevant Wiki, these are the launching chains ie, presumably, not the anchor chains.

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

The cross members are to reduce the knotting up when chains are stored in chain lockers. The chains would have been second hand anchor chains, not specifically made for ship launching, maybe past thier best, or from scrapped ships.

[Chris GunnParticipant @chrisgunn36534]

Thanks for the suggestions so far, just to clarify a couple of points raised, the diorama will be full size, and will be outside for a weekend. A representation of the Clifton bridge will form part of it and a dummy dressed as per IKB in the picture Hopper was kind enough to show in his post. We thought 3d chain links would be the icing on the cake, and we would reduce the number a bit. I rather like the mould and casting route, and wonder if a split mould were used, could builders expanding foam be used to "cast" the links, on the basis that this would be quicker than paper maiche or plaster of paris. Thanks also for the info on acrylic paint and balloons.

Please keep the suggestions coming, we need to get this done for the Coronation celebrations.

Chris Gunn

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