Pros and Cons of the ER collet system

[david williams 14Participant @davidwilliams14]

found to be excellent in both holding tooling and work. use er25 and er16.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Alan,

We will need a manufacturers report from the handbag maker plus an FEA report but be aware that it may not satisfy some

[alan frostParticipant @alanfrost17805]

Well,John. i've written off tonight for a manufacturers report from Ledfilled (my usual supplier although I occasionally carry a Swinglite) .i'm not sure they know what an FEA report is,but i'll ask.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Not a pink Swinglite is it? They are lethal in the wrong hands.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Can we please have some moderation from the "Moderator"

If you personally dislike this thread, then please just ignore it, instead of trying to destroy it.

MichaelG.

 

 

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 22/09/2016 22:39:24

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

I personally don't think there really is a con to the ER system… actually buying all the sizes you need is probably the only downside. With traditional spindle collets it's much easier to make your own i guess.

A chinese ER40 collet system with 2-26mm range is probably cheaper than a flashy 3 jaw. I was going to say a lack of an "external" range would be on the cards if it were not for expanding mandrels.

I would say from manufacture experience alot of them go down the collet route simply because it's convenient to do so with a known range of repeatable sizes.

But who among us model engineers, with our ever changing need for odd shapes and sizes, would consider the face plate, the 4 jaw or the 3 jaw, the mainstay of lathe work, no longer required? Surely these old timers would carry the day over an ER system each and every time?

Michael W

Edited By Michael Walters on 22/09/2016 22:58:14

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 22/09/2016 22:17:34:

Can we please have some moderation from the "Moderator"

If you personally dislike this thread, then please just ignore it, instead of trying to destroy it.

MichaelG.

Michael,

Unfortunately on this forum you are allowed one persona. Mine has Moderator at the side of it but it doesn't meant that every post I make has my moderators hat in.

In fact not many have but I do have a personal persona as well and as such like all the non moderators who post here I do and can have a personal opinion.

In reply to Michael W's post I spend a lot of time daily because it's my job, running a lathe and mill.

On the lathe I rely on my 3 jaw for most of the work but I do run soft jaws so it makes it a very accurate 3 jaw, followed by equally 4 jaw independent and 4 jaw self centering depending on the shape of the work.

I do have collet chucks, ER 32, ER40 and Jacobs rubberflex. I use the first two occasionally but much prefer the soft jaws and the Jacobs never.

In fact I have two Jacobs collets chucks and full sets of collets for each. Neither are used and it's probably time to sell these on.

On the Mill, a large Chinese Bridgeport clone but larger I have ER11, ER16, ER 20, ER 25, ER32 and ER40 collet chucks but unless I want to hold something of a non standard size like a drill I much prefer the direct into the spindle R8 collets as they are far shorter and therefore more rigid and not being a CNC repeatability of tool length doesn't matter.

The reason I have all these collets chucks and collets is not because I need or use them but it's because over the years I have worked closely with the Chinese on various jobs that you accumulate tools.

You also accumulate information but much of it is proprietary and cannot be passed on which is annoying when you read a post where someone is talking out of their arse.

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

John,

It's good to hear from a professional and i do understand that alot of information that's passed on can't be shared, as i too know when working closely with paying customers the last thing you'd want to do is undermine their privacy and your own discretion.

I have an ER system, 3 being ER20, ER32 and ER40, i had intended to use both with the lathe and mill but have found that in practice it gets far more use on the mill than the lathe, i like you, favor the 3 jaw for most jobs, even if i want to hold/machine a short length, i'll set up parallels across the face to do so rather than get out the ER taper.

It's also sensible to use more than 1 system, as you often find that the size of the chuck is gigantic on the bigger systems for obvious reasons. My favorite would have to be ER20 for it's unobtrusive size and finer range (this matters on my wee modified warco 16). I also bought a couple of ball-raced collars for the 20 and 40 range as i had read elsewhere that this can alleviate the sideways pressure of tightening up on the collet. 

Michael W

 

Edited By Michael Walters on 22/09/2016 23:53:12

[John HinkleyParticipant @johnhinkley26699]

Now that the shower of toys coming out of prams seems to have abated somewhat, does anyone have an answer to the question I posed earlier in the thread? Viz: the seating of the ER11 collets in Neil Lickfold's photos? Do they REALLY sit like that in use, or should they be flush with the nut face like my ER25 and ER32 systems? See his post on page 9 of this thread.

John

Edited to correct the spelling of Neil's name and to aftercast more toy showers!

 

Edited By John Hinkley on 23/09/2016 07:52:36

Edited By John Hinkley on 23/09/2016 07:53:26

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by John Stevenson on 22/09/2016 23:17:25:

Michael,

[a] Unfortunately on this forum you are allowed one persona. Mine has Moderator at the side of it but it doesn't meant that every post I make has my moderators hat in.

…

[b] You also accumulate information but much of it is proprietary and cannot be passed on which is annoying when you read a post where someone is talking out of their arse.

.

John

[letters added for convenient reference]

Comment [a] is accepted … although I note that 'Neil Wyatt' and 'Stub Mandel' somehow manage to co-exist.

Comment [b] is also understood, and I have some sympathy; but I don't see how it justifies you making a snide remark [apparently] in response to my post of 22/09/2016 09:57:29.

Your comedy routine with 'alan frost' is just another insult to those few of us who were trying to make this thread a useful source of information.

MichaelG.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Stub has posted seven times since I became editor in early 2014.

I only use the account to test functions from a non-moderator account, but occasionally post using it without thinking. Two exceptions were 'wry' posts that probably slunk lower than the handbag discussion above

Neil

[Danny M2ZParticipant @dannym2z]

Never in the history of this forum have I seen so much crap written about a subject so trivial by so many 'experts' postulating from so many armchairs.

I vote for the people that have been there and done it. When the cutter starts, the b*llshit stops!

My ancient X2 mill with an MT3 taper has an ER 25 collet holder. I suspect that the dreaded plastic gears might give out long before the cutter slips. Spindle concentricity is well within the advertised specs.

So, take light cuts and get on with it. As Ned Kelly said (before the floor fell away) "Such is life"

* Danny M *

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Well that's that, then.

I can only offer my thanks to those who actually tried to contribute some intelligent thought to the subject.

May I suggest that the thread should now be closed, so that future 'researchers' have only eleven pages to wade through.

MichaelG.

[Steven VineParticipant @stevenvine79904]

Michael

So it's ok if you want to close it?

Steve (who still can't believe the see you next tuesday comment was allowed to remain).

[richardandtracyParticipant @richardandtracy]

Come fairly late to this discussion…

I mostly use and ER32 for pen making. The repeatability of the concentricity in my cheaper Chinese ER32's is around 0.05mm, which is adequate.

Regards,

Richard.

[Raymond AndersonParticipant @raymondanderson34407]

In response to Js specifically, I get the impression that there are folk on this forum that hang on every word you print. . Well, here is some news to you "I DONT ". When all is said and done I see nothing that you turn out that sets you apart from any run of the mill Turners or Millers You are just an " ordinary " machinist, nothing to set the heather on fire. You are fine when others share you're opinion but the toys and insults get hurled around when others have different views. You certainly have an over inflated opinion of you're worth. Like I said you might have some on here that think you are something special as a machinist , but in the real world an "Ordinary Joe "

Also whilst you mention hats here is a couple that would surely fit and as the saying goes "if the cap fits "This is me last word on the subject ,as you and a few fellow" know it all's" have ruined it for others who wanted to find out about the limitations of the ER and besides iv'e proved my 3 areas .

[Mark CParticipant @markc]

I like this thread, not for the technical aspect but for the filter function it provides – it allows me to see who is typing usefully stuff and who writes rubbish and should be ignored….

As for JS's post, I also think he could do with moderating his replies as well – I also moderate a group (fortunately not as vitriolic as this) and take great care to remain impartial but also maintain as high a degree of quality in my language as I can manage which is hard at times especially as I have always had a problem with the written word.

Mark

[JAParticipant @ja]

Raymond

Thank you for showing your member's profile.

JA

[Mark CParticipant @markc]

Michael W, there are a number of "professionals" willing to contribute on this forum. Many of us are unable to publish customer sensitive information but a lot of stuff getting discussed on this forum is generic and should pose no problem with confidentiality. With regard work holding or tooling chucks, there can't be much about these days left that is going to fall into that category – the information will eventually end up on the patent search engines for anyone prepared to go looking (Michael G is your man for this, he really does have a special talent as far as I have seen! ).

When it comes to engineers with opinions we tend to be the worlds worst as there are frequently many ways to solve the same problem or the problem will fall into grey areas instead of being clearly identified problems to solve…

Mark

[Neil LickfoldParticipant @neillickfold44316]

Posted by John Hinkley on 23/09/2016 07:42:57:

Now that the shower of toys coming out of prams seems to have abated somewhat, does anyone have an answer to the question I posed earlier in the thread? Viz: the seating of the ER11 collets in Neil Lickfold's photos? Do they REALLY sit like that in use, or should they be flush with the nut face like my ER25 and ER32 systems? See his post on page 9 of this thread.

John

Edited to correct the spelling of Neil's name and to aftercast more toy showers!

Edited By John Hinkley on 23/09/2016 07:52:36

Edited By John Hinkley on 23/09/2016 07:53:26

Hi John, Only the ER11 with the castle nut collet , has the front of the collet face recessed relative to the front of the collet nut. The regular or standard ER11 nut which is a larger thread on the collet holder, and uses a Hex nut design similar to ER16, 20,25,32, all are about flush or close to flush on the nose. This slim series nut came from some milling extensions that used ER11 collets on a 16mm shaft for getting down into moulding cavities. So when I made the tooling for the lathe just used the same nuts from the milling section. They also have a complete set of collets spare as well, so was a win for me. On the set ups I use, the parts generally indicate to better than 0.02mm TIR. The home made collets for specific jobs are better than 0.01mm tir and for most things that is plenty good enough. Most of the collet chuck bodies I have made are from stress relieved pre hardened P20 die steel, it is about 30Rc or so in Hardness. It is a very stable material and I feel that is very important factor in making tooling that it is a stable material. My home made cue lathe is made with an ER40 collet spindle that I made as a cartridge spindle and then mounted that cartridge onto the lathe bed. I also made various steady rests that also use the ER40 collet size and those used a 40X62 bearing from air conditioning clutches in cars. A really nice double row bearing. Other ones just used a pair of bearings but spaced as if they were angular contact bearings. I have pictures in my album on them. I also have alot of split sleeves for holding parts, so I for example a series of sleeves that are 19mm od with varying id's from 16mm down to 14mm. These sleeves are quite a neat fit onto the part and the collet is used in its nominal size range, ie from 19.05 down to 18.95 mm. The concentric sleeves are really easy to make and can be made from what ever material it needs to be, so can be steel, plastic or even wood, like I use on the pool cues. The sleeves can also have tapers to match that of the part being held like a cue where they have some quite shallow tapers for example. There is a huge list of things you can do with theses collet systems apart from just holding cutters and do it quite repeatably and with just basic lathe skills and a hacksaw.

Neil

[John HinkleyParticipant @johnhinkley26699]

Neil,

Thank you for posting your exhaustive and informative explanation. I asked the question as I'm in the early stages of designing a pantograph engraving device, using an ER11 collet system for holding the engraving tool.

Regards,

John

Edited By John Hinkley on 23/09/2016 13:08:11

[Neil LickfoldParticipant @neillickfold44316]

John, go for the slim line castle nut over the regular nut. It will give you more room to see what you are doing.

Neil

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by Raymond Anderson on 23/09/2016 12:33:41:

In response to Js specifically, I get the impression that there are folk on this forum that hang on every word you print. . Well, here is some news to you "I DONT ". When all is said and done I see nothing that you turn out that sets you apart from any run of the mill Turners or Millers You are just an " ordinary " machinist, nothing to set the heather on fire. You are fine when others share you're opinion but the toys and insults get hurled around when others have different views. You certainly have an over inflated opinion of you're worth. Like I said you might have some on here that think you are something special as a machinist , but in the real world an "Ordinary Joe "

 

At last Raymond, something we both agree on.

I'd be the first to agree on that. People on this forum like Jason absolutely amaze me with that they can do. Even Neil's efforts are far in front of what I could manage given the intricacy and patience required. So yes I'm an ordinary Joe.

 

I'm don't really care what one person thinks, in this case you because you don't even know your own mind.

In the first post you say ER's are not the best collet system then later after presenting absolutely no evidence what is, you say they are the best for the home shop. What is it to be ?

 

The fact I mentioned the aerospace company just up the road from me and that many pages later was seconded buy someone else completely went over your head and totally ignored.

 

Shrink fit was mentioned by you and just glossed over so for all our readers who aren't Google Childs let me explain how a shrink fit holder works.

 

As the name suggests the cutter is shrunk fitted into the holder, sounds simple ? well it isn't.

For a start the holders are very, very accurately made to very tight tolerances and need certain types of cutters, also made to very tight tolerances to go in there so forget the boot sale cutters we all love.

 

Then you need an expensive induction heater setup where the holder is heated up and the cutter fitted and allowed to cool.

The type of companies that use these tend to have a trained person, usually in the tool crib or CCM department who's job it is. So he fits the cutter, puts it in a jig and measures the tool offset, marks it up and it goes in a rack or delivered to the machine.

Sometimes that last operation is missed out because machines like 5 axis DGM's now have laser tool length offset measuring built in and that transfers the value to the tool table automatically.

 

In many cases they will load 5 of the same tool so T10 to T15 will be 10mm cutters and T16 to T20 will be 12mm cutters. The reason for this is the machine monitors the spindle amperage and the only reason for the amperage to increase is a blunt or chipped cutter, so it stops automatically, swaps the tool, rewinds a few lines if programmed to on fault codes and carries on. So often at the end of a job the operator looks at the log and only swaps T10 to T12 and T16 to T18. Often the other tools are in there for months, unused.

 

Now it's a good system and works well for the big boys.

Where it falls down flat on it's face is cost, having to have a skilled person swap tools and you don't swap them every farts end like we do.

 

Which one of the two hats do you want me to add as your avatar ?

Edited By John Stevenson on 23/09/2016 22:15:20

[Mark CParticipant @markc]

Quoting "aerospace companies" is a bit of a red herring. The goal of most aerospace manufacturing is quality followed by quality with a final check on quality.

This means that the machining is done in a completely alien regime to most jobbing shops or tool makers where they want the parts accurate but at minimum machine time to realise maximum profit from machine/tool/operator (or I sub the work to the competition if they get it wrong).

So, the point of this post, please stop quoting aerospace as some type of nirvana for machining applications – it is just a very specialist area to meet a particular niche requirement, they do turn out some amazing stuff but it is not your every-day work.

Mark

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Mark,

They are still achieving a tolerance we only dream of and they are not going to do that with a car boot Clarkson chuck.

And whats wrong with accuracy at minimum machine time ? True it's also not your everyday work but they need the best to achieve this so if they can get away making amazing stuff with ER's where's the problem.

[Author]

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