Pros and Cons of the ER collet system

[Raymond AndersonParticipant @raymondanderson34407]

John, It was you that mentioned a production setting and ER's are simply not suited to that., By the time you screw the closer home then unscrew the closer, any of the" C " range and others are far quicker. They can all be closed by a lever or Hydraulic in a fraction of the time. and time is money. So to get back to my original thoughts, I stick by what I said ER's are designed to take Axial loads from Drill / Reamers it is only secondary that they are used for end mills and thirdly, for workholding [ of which there is a lot of in hobby settings ] I'm always open to learning and you show me ER''s workholding in a production setting and I will eat me humble pie.

cheers.

[Raymond AndersonParticipant @raymondanderson34407]

John, are you saying that Guhring is not a respected source ? They most certainly were NOT designed for milling. as Rego Fix will no doubt confirm . Since they invented the system are they a respected source ?

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Ok I’ll have to conceed the point and accept that you know more than many companies in the UK alone.

Anyone want to buy 45 BT40 /ER32 collet chucks, going cheap ?

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by steamdave on 05/09/2016 14:13:44:

… the Burnerd Multisize system is a good alternative (says he who uses both systems, with the Multisize collets used solely for workholding).

Read what tony Griffiths has to say about them (bottom of page): http://www.lathes.co.uk/clausing/page5.html

.

Don't rub it in, Dave

I had a Multisize set, which I had kept for 20+ years [waiting for the day when I might have space for a suitable lathe] … I started a thread on here, asking for suggestions on a "small footprint" lathe with D1-3 nose fitting.

The advice from 'the wise' here, was that I should sell the Multisze … Nobody metioned the 'Loughborough' training lathe, which might have done nicely.

I sold the set, and have regretted it ever-since.

This ^^^ is of no real relevance to the current thread, it's just my way of agreeing with your recommendation.

MichaelG.

.

For your amusement: This was the killer-blow …

I ended a post with: 

P.S. … I may consider buying just a headstock, and building a "Bitza"

. and got the response:

Surely a bit like finding a crutch in the gutter and breaking your leg so as to make full use of it 

 

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 05/09/2016 15:08:46

[Anonymous]

Here's a quote:

The REGO-FIX standard ER collet is the most widely used clamping system in the world. Originally created and patented in 1973 by REGO-FIX, it is ideal for a variety of machining applications including boring, milling, reaming, tapping and grinding.

Anyone care to guess where it came from? The US Rego-Fix website.

Andrew

+1 for the Burnerd Multisize collets, I use it more than any other chuck on my lathe.

[Raymond AndersonParticipant @raymondanderson34407]

Dave, I'm certainly not a ER detractor as I have stated many times and not just in this thread I use them a lot, and I like them. This debate is about what they were primarily designed for, which most certainly was not Milling and even less workholding. In our domestic setting they are a boost, but in an industrial setting there are better Endmill holders and better workholding collets. That is all I said. some folks think I mean they are not good for milling iv'e never said that. Of course they are good for milling but not the best, which is what I am saying. And we hobbyists use them for workholding which again is not their strongest point ,there are better types.

cheers

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 05/09/2016 14:55:10:

+1 for the Burnerd Multisize collets, I use it more than any other chuck on my lathe.

Me too. They have the advantage of being a proper collet chuck with a good range of adjustment. It's often possible to rechuck work without having to recentre it (eg in a 4-jaw), at least for the quality of work I manage!

[Raymond AndersonParticipant @raymondanderson34407]

Andrew, Just because it is the most widely used does not make it the best. Budweiser beer is I think the worlds best selling beer, but its far from the best.. I have e-mailed Rego Fix and await their reply. People have a knack of turning things around here.. I repeat, I never said they are no good at anything, only that they were not designed from the off for milling [ even though they are used a lot for that ] there are better, thats what i'm saying, and they most certainly were not designed for workholding. even though we [hobbyists] use them a lot. None of this can be refuted "they are not the BEST for endmills and not the BEST for workholding I have never intimated that they are no good at all.

I wish some folks would stop twisting things around.

cheers.

[Raymond AndersonParticipant @raymondanderson34407]

Now Muzzer, that IS a true WORKHOLDING Collet system. designed from the off for that purpose. Nothing else.

Edited By Raymond Anderson on 05/09/2016 15:29:39

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Here's an ER collet holder coming in at over 8 grand – plus vat. Clearly not for home use!

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Oh ?
Better send mine back then. …..

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Raymond,

Please explain WHY it has been designed better when it operates on a nearly identical taper to an ER but actually has a less surface area for grippingkk. Granted they can be lever operated and quicker to use but that wasn’t the original issue.

[Raymond AndersonParticipant @raymondanderson34407]

John, Show me the companies that use then for Workholding and you won't need to concede the point. Now, I'm going to ask this in simple terms, Are they in you're opinion the best for holding endmills, and are they in you're opinion the best for workholding. yes or no is all it needs. because that is what this debate is about. I simply stated that they are not the BEST, not that they are no good. The way they are the best selling chuck for milling is in many ways down to the fact that a smaller inventory is needed to cater for a variety of cutter Ø's certainly not because it is the best [strongest ] system. This thread has gone from me simply stating that they are at their best in an Axial load scenario,and that there are better collet systems for workholding. Iv'e answered the questions iv'e been asked

You can't beat a good debate without insults being hurled about.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

In Simples terms I can’t afford the best so I have to use the best I can afford.

Might not answer your question but I’m sure it touches a nerve with most.

And I do use my machinery daily in anger.

And no one has explained yet why they are inferior in a radial application, whether work holding or tool holding

Edited By John Stevenson on 05/09/2016 16:42:09

[Raymond AndersonParticipant @raymondanderson34407]

John, I take it you are referring to the "c " system collets for worholding They can grip shorter lengths where an ER needs around 60 % of the part inserted I just think it's a pain having to machine a plug every time you want to grip a short part.. Thats where the " c " and other systems have a definite edge. Agreed, they have less gripping area than the parallel collapsing ER. The "c " system also has the added bonus of being available in round / square / hex and blanks. And I think it was you who mentioned production certainly not me, but since it was mentioned thats another area where true workholding collets out perform the ER's. even though thats not relevant to the hobbyists like me. I do like them in my environment. but i'm going to invest in a Crawford system or maybe a Bison that uses the larger "c " size

cheers.

[Raymond AndersonParticipant @raymondanderson34407]

Being a Scot cost certainly touches a raw nerve with me also, i'm not immune At the end of the day John You, I and everybody else, uses the best they can afford. There is one thing I won't do and that is skimp on tools. Yes, i'm very fortunate in that I get a very good discount through the brothers employers. Thats why i'm going to up grade me collet system but still keep me ER's. when all said and done I like having a friendly debate / difference of views. And I really do LIKE me ER's.

cheers.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

No I’m asking Why the Burnard system is designed / better for work holding ?

I have read endless posts that says it is and ER’s can’t / are not designed for radial loads but so far no actual design criteria that supports this.

Without this, this thread on a hobby forum is useless

Edited By John Stevenson on 05/09/2016 17:07:38

[AjohnwParticipant @ajohnw51620]

Posted by John Stevenson on 05/09/2016 14:33:02:
Ok I'll have to conceed the point and accept that you know more than many companies in the UK alone.

Anyone want to buy 45 BT40 /ER32 collet chucks, going cheap ?

If I had a BT40 fitting I would. I can't modify my DW to take one.

The problem with ER for work holding is simply the grip length as it is with the Bernard multi size actually. Jacobs rubber are a touch better as they do shorten it on some of them.

The answer on ER is simple really. Have more than one size and use small for small and bigger where it's needed. Ok that means more than one collet chuck but given what many buy cost difference is unlikely to be that much. A full high precision set of ER40's is rather a lot of collets as well. Many probably wont get used and some will be used at larger sizes where a mm or so change of diameter wont make much difference to what ever is being made providing things are adjusted to suite.

While ancient milling cutter chucks may seem rather twee they do have a bit of an advantage. Easy to get cutters in and out, relatively little loss of headroom and good ones also run true. There is also the morse and R8 collet solution if the fitting is suitable.

Frankly I can't see how milling cutters can avoid being subject to both radial and axial heavy loads. ER still function with drills and slot drills in them.

John

–

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

It was a serious question on the ER/BT40 holders.
I’m currently scrapping a large Beaver CNC and have nothing else that needs 45 tool holders.

I’m keeping a few INT40’s back for the gear cutter but this will also get scrapped in 18 months or so.
.
The idea is too put about 2,000 Myford gears or so on stock then downsize the gear cutting.
.
.
Just thought, does this count as production ?
Gear hobber has ER 32 arbor to hold the hob and work head also has ER32 chuck fitted. ?

Edited By John Stevenson on 05/09/2016 17:45:53

[Raymond AndersonParticipant @raymondanderson34407]

First off John, Not being a designer I could'nt tell you how the Er's are at their best Axially and less so radially. I just know that is the case. You would need an "egghead " to give the calculations. And if the lad from Guhring mentioned it there must be something in it. Maybe all will be revealed once I hear back from Regofix. As far as the collet system goes I have already explained why I think there are better than ER's

I am going to try find the info I got a while back from Albrecht as regards milling chucks. In it they conducted tests using a ground 20mm Ø high tensile pin with a 18mm thread on the end. They then marked each pin with a scribe line and inserted them into each of the chucks Albrecht milling chuck , shrink fit and the ER. They then proceeded to apply a torque with a Stahlwille Digital torque wrench The ER let go at such and such newton mts The shrink fit and the Albrecht exceeded the torque of the ER and went past it until the nut sheared off and the witness marks had never moved. I have it on a brochure from Albrecht I will rummage about and try to put it up on here. Failing that I will see if Albrecht can give me some more info. Like I said I wouldn't profess to understand the calculations, some folks on here might certainly not me,. but there has to be something in it.

cheers.

[Raymond AndersonParticipant @raymondanderson34407]

I would have taken a few from you for the K & T but alas they are ISO 50. what a bummer. Yes that I think would count as Production.

[Michael HornerParticipant @michaelhorner54327]

Hi Raymond

Glad you like a debate.

The middle picture in the **LINK**

States for tools or materials, what ever that might be. We need M.G. to dig out the patent application that would stipulate what the original intention was.

Happy debating, must get my tea and get into the garage and make or mend something!

Cheers michael

[Raymond AndersonParticipant @raymondanderson34407]

Ajohnw, No one said the ER's didn't function.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by Raymond Anderson on 05/09/2016 17:53:10:

First off John, Not being a designer I could'nt tell you how the Er's are at their best Axially and less so radially. I just know that is the case. You would need an "egghead " to give the calculations. And if the lad from Guhring mentioned it there must be something in it.

cheers.

So until someone does I for one am ignoring all the chaff

[Raymond AndersonParticipant @raymondanderson34407]

Michael Who is M G? And with respect there is no need for sarcasm!! if you want to join in the discussion fine feel free, or if not then do as you said, go and make or mend something. I have already seen that brochure and it does not tell me anything I didnt already know.

cheers

[Author]

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