Power Cut Proofing

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

The official unofficial kid sister has decreed that she is visiting for December and January so I've been instructed to figure out what is needed to ensure essentials in her house keep going during any power cuts.

Absolute essentials are a CCTV system and internet access so she can keep an eye on things up in Manchester whilst she is down here in Sussex. Looks like you can get boxes with a battery, charger and several 12 volt outputs with sufficient power to run a CCTV system and router wi-fi unit. Presumably a turn key supplier able to supply both box and CCTV set-up will make sure the internet link is wired and direct from the control box.

It would be desirable to keep the gas boiler, central heating system and controller gubbins (think she may have Nest stuff) up and running too. Presumably a small pure sine wave inverter, battery and suitable float charger would handle that. I guess if that is practical the 12 volt supply for the CCTV system and router might as well come off that too. Logically you could run off that all the time once its installed.

Comments, suggestions and (if I'm really lucky) contact details of someone in Manchester who can set things up for her.

Thanks.

Clive

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

My CCTV runs off mains power converted to 12v for the system and everything (incl router) automatically restarts after power is restored.

Sounds to me as though you are trying to make a UPS it might be more reliable to get a commercial UPS set up installed, but might be expensive.

I stand to be corrected by the more knowledgeable folk on here though.

Edited By V8Eng on 07/10/2022 17:16:42

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

V8Eng

UPS was where I started looking. But a bit of delving into the specifications made it clear that the run time on battery was far too limited. The domestic affordable (£100 – £300) systems usually don't give you any figures but similarly rated commercial units make it clear that such are short term only devices. Typically to run electronics gubbins for 10 to 30 minutes whilst you safely shut things down.

Seriously big batteries and several hours run time are ££££ and generally far too big for this job.

Clive

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

I suspect that you might need something quite substantial to keep it all going reliably thorough a power cut of unknown duration.

Have any consumption figures been obtained?

We used to have simple battery back up emergency lighting (big box 2 batteries in it flood light on top) at work which would run for a few hours so I guess unsophisticated stuff might work.

[Ian ParkinParticipant @ianparkin39383]

I have recently acquired a large UPS system..its big on wheels and has 8 large lorry sized battery’s inside and control gear and a inverter..its a 3kw system

its perhaps 700mm square and 900 mm tall

i know nothing much about it but you can have it cheap..

its a AEC S1030 (power station)

looks as it could be good for anyone who has a solar system too?

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

How about a helpful neighbour?

Tony

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Initial handwaving suggests power needs aren't too unreasonable.

Swann run their 4 camera CCTV systems off two 12 volt 2 amp wall warts. One for the cameras and one for the recorder / control box. My BT Home Hub also has a 12 volt 2 amp wall wart which I assume is pretty typical. So thats a theoretical 6 amp demand from the simple 12 volt CCTV and router idea. I imagine there is some margin between the wall wart output and what the kit actually uses when running flat out. I also suspect that in passive daytime watching mode the CCTV draws rather less than when recording at night with the IR illuminators on.

Approaching a couple of hours from the 9 amp hour float batteries often found on alarm systems is probably not unreasonable.

My boiler specification says 60 watts power draw, the heating pump needs 50 watts maximum and the other control gubbins soak up around another 30 watts or so. Given the various inefficiencies in battery to inverter conversion calling the boiler et al demand 180 watts is probably in the ball park. So nominal 30 amps draw from the 12 V battery for the heating when its running.

But in "frost protection plus a bit more" mode the heating won't be running all that much. If its 10 % duty cycle then a 30 amp hour battery ought do for about 10 hours.

A 100 Amp Hour leisure battery can be got for around £100 and would likely be enough to run both the heating in "frost protect plus a bit more" mode and the 12 V CCTV et al stuff for a 10 hour (ish) power cut. Which ought to be enough.

Another £200 should cover a small pure sine wave inverter (500 W) and decent quality battery maintenance charger so it all looks somewhat doable without spending silly money.

But its certainly something I'd prefer set up by "folk who know" rather than me working 'undreds of miles from base.

Clive

Edited By Clive Foster on 07/10/2022 18:59:34

Edited By Clive Foster on 07/10/2022 19:05:28

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Ian

Thanks for a splendid offer but, having found some data online, that system is way, way overkill for this job. Also seems to be intended to support large loads for a short time whilst things are closed down rather than smaller load for longer.

Tony

She gets on well with her neighbours but there are limits. Keeping an eye on the place for a long weekend or short week is fine but a couple of months is pushing it. Regardless of many bottle of the favourite tipple are on offer.

Clive

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

Just to add a bit of security on top of a UPS, there are apps for smart phones (Quite old ones) that monitor the charger input. They can send an SMS to another phone to indicate power on and power off. I use one for our freezer when on holiday. If the power goes off for a long time, I ring my neighbour.

Bob

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Going off at a slight tangent [ Who, Moi ?! ] … I was looking at this video, about a solar kit, a few days ago:

You could probably use that, or just parts of it, to good effect

… it’s all pretty modular

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 07/10/2022 20:25:24

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

A trendy solution, nowadays, is to add to a domestic system a lithium battery and an inverter, not primarily to cover power cuts, but as a way of using stored solar energy during the night. But such a system would meet your needs, too. It would be an advantage if you had a night-store tarriff, or were thinking of adding solar panels.

It should not be impossible, either to find a converter to drop the 50 colts DC in the llithium battery to 12v to feed lap-tops etc.

hope this helps

Cheers, Tim

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Bob

Interesting to hear about that power monitoring app for phones. Having been told about it I'm not surprised its out there but there is so much stuff for phones that normal old farts like me can't begin to keep up.

Michael

Interesting video but I'm really, really trying to avoid serious engineering on my part. The bit about portable battery and inverter power systems at the end caught my eye but those integrated units are rather expensive when needing to supply the power for this sort of job. I'll be unsurprised if we are on the cusp of a big drop in price per unit power tho'.

Tim

Big battery unit to go on my solar power set-up to exploit the unused half (ish) of the power my panels generate is very much on my personal radar.

No solar panels at her ladyships place so not appropriate for her.

I think it likely that running much of the household load via big batteries with off peak and, if you have panels, solar charging will soon be a mainstream thing. If they ever stop mucking about and design smart meters properly the grid efficiency gains from widespread, accurate load / demand optimisation at the individual level look potentially impressive.

 

Clive

 

Edited By Clive Foster on 07/10/2022 21:13:24

[Paul LousickParticipant @paullousick59116]

A battery backup system is an expensive option to run all of the electrical appliances for an emergency situation that may or may not happen. And for how long will the power be out.

A much cheaper option is to get a petrol powered generator.

The CCT, router, hearer control, etc would have to be dis-connected from the house power and connected to the generator which may need to be modified by an electrician. If a big enough generator is installed, you could run the house lights, refrigerator, etc. (Note: must be run outside of the house, carbon monoxide)

Edited By Paul Lousick on 07/10/2022 22:47:25

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Connecting up and starting a genny from 200 miles away is a challenge. I know it could be permanently connected and auto start but I think we're getting into overkill territory. Difficult to remotely top up the fuel, and very tempting for the light fingered brigade, who would soon work out that the house was unoccupied

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

A box of candles and some matches saw us through Ted Heaths blackouts

Everyone gathered at the nearest neighbour who had a gas cooker for teatimes

First world problems eh?

I remember my dad covering his tropical fish tank with hot water bottles and a duvet to try and keep them going, but to no avail

Edited By Ady1 on 07/10/2022 23:30:55

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Posted by duncan webster on 07/10/2022 22:59:50:

Connecting up and starting a genny from 200 miles away is a challenge. I know it could be permanently connected and auto start but I think we're getting into overkill territory. Difficult to remotely top up the fuel, and very tempting for the light fingered brigade, who would soon work out that the house was unoccupied

I think the genny would be gone in short order especially if plenty of power cuts were occurring.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

We didn't even have enough food in the fridge to worry about it getting spoiled

Nowadays our fridge freezers are jam packed with assorted yummys

[Paul LousickParticipant @paullousick59116]

I missed the point that it was her house while she was visiting elsewhere that had the problem. Therefore best option is a UPS as used for computers, etc that will kick in when the power goes down. Just need a system with enough capacity for the duration of the blackout. It will automatically re charge the battery when the power is restored.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

A search for 'camping power packs' on amazon etc give a host of offerings and I believe for added capacity some can be daisy-chained It comes down to whether a couple of hundred WH is enough and where to keep the thing. I'd be cautious about lithium batteries unattended in a house.

pgk

[Paul LousickParticipant @paullousick59116]

A camping power pack although a cheaper option will not cut-in automatically when the power goes down. Uninteruptable Power Supplies (UPS) have electronics that will.

See computer supply accessories. Also lots available on ebay, etc.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Paul Lousick on 08/10/2022 04:36:27:

I missed the point that it was her house while she was visiting elsewhere that had the problem. Therefore best option is a UPS as used for computers, etc that will kick in when the power goes down. Just need a system with enough capacity for the duration of the blackout. It will automatically re charge the battery when the power is restored.

.

That was the underlying logic in my reference to the ‘Solar’ video

The functionality of a small UPS could [quite easily?] be extended to do greater things by adding ‘modules’ from that solar kit.

MichaelG.

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Just out interest, has she checked out what her insurance policy has to say about leaving the place empty for extended periods? I think some vary in winter as well.

Another thought is, how about a monitored security system? Our friends had one installed and various cameras activate if problems occur then suitable responses occur from the company for the situation.

That would leave you less to get involved with!

Edited By V8Eng on 08/10/2022 09:13:09

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

As power protection gets progressively more complicated and expensive with the length of outage and the amount of kW hours needed, and because UK power is pretty reliable, it might be worth considering another strategy. How about fitting a Power Cut Alert, which calls you when the power goes off and on. As many cuts are short-duration and most domestic devices recover automatically from outages, they may only be a problem if they last more than 'n' hours. An alert system allows the owner to decide what they want to do about it, from asking a neighbour to look in, to hiring a jet for an emergency personal visit. Paying a House Sitter Service is another possibility, and they protect against gas and water leaks too.

Dave

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Insurance companies tend to draw the line at 30 days for a property to be unoccupied after that they withdraw the insurance cover, not to say that you couldn’t come to an arrangement with them but would inevitably cost money. In respect of powering the central heating system during a power outage you are forbidden to feed power into your domestic circuits unless the house system is physically disconnected from the grid, this is to prevent any power worker who happens to be repairing a fault receiving a lethal shock from power fed back into the system. This is taken care of with home solar power systems being designed so that in the event of a mains power failure they will not supply any power to the domestic system, I have a solar generating system with 12 kWh of battery storage but if the mains power goes off then I cannot use any power. The way around it is to have a special relay fitted into the domestic supply that disconnects the house from the mains in the event of a power outage, it’s similar to the system used by buildings that have an emergency generator that cuts in if the mains fails. Because to date power outages have been a rare occurrence where we live I have not felt that fitting the equipment to isolate from the mains is cost effective, any power outages to date have never lasted more than an hour , that may need to be re-evaluated in the light of present circumstances. Dave W

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