Plasma cutter at lidl

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

Old or not, the ring mains will be designed for and fused at 30A.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 08/03/2022 17:19:47:

Posted by Frances IoM on 08/03/2022 14:59:29:
ring mains being 2 x 2.5mm^2 cabled are generally protected these days with a 32A RCB – the 13A fuse is only there to protect the cable from the socket to the device (only the UK has such a scheme – its utility has often been questioned)…

True, but unwise to assume that. My home, which isn't ancient, has an old-fashioned consumer unit with fuses. I suspect many sheds and home workshops have downright dubious electrics. Much depends on who installed it and when…

Dave

Your ring is fed through a 30A fuse as Mark says, you probably have a fuse wire card somewhere in your house to confirm it.

Your house is probably the only non-ancient one in the country that risks burning down when you run a kettle at the same time as the toaster in the kitchen. There is absolutely no need to keep taking the kettle upstairs to boil it.

[Ray LyonsParticipant @raylyons29267]

I was hoping tat by now to have had some reports about the performance of the machine. Looking at various videos it would appear that it suffers from compressor condensation which effects the cutting finish. I would like to know more if anybody has tested it yet but as the weather has been rough, perhaps good tests have not been possible.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Posted by Mark Rand on 08/03/2022 17:07:04:

One could always use a 15A round pin plug and sockets. .

I wouldn't be worried about the Lidl plasma cutter's EMI emmisions, Any plasma cutter will produce a fair amount of EMI, and a fair number of us probably have far more highly rated ones.

It's not you who should be worried, it's the people you are interfering with

SOD pretty much covered it other than harmonics. These are imposed on the mains and can cause transformers and motors to overheat, damage electronic equipment etc.

The fact that plasma cutters inherently generate interference and it is difficult and expensive to mitigate is one reason why there are very few that meet domestic interference regulations.

Like speeding, not getting caught or having an accident "this time" does not mean it is right or any less illegal.

Robert G8RPI

[Matthew BrittonParticipant @matthewbritton35085]

The one thing I've not seen mentioned is LEV. I'm an ex welder fabricator and I'm now a supporting engineer for Naval workshops and I cannot stress highly enough the dangers of metal fumes from cutting and welding. My recommendation is to purchase an air fed mask and ensure good ventilation when metal cutting. If in a professional environment then a suitable Local Exhaust Ventilation system is a must too especially as it protects other workers in close proximity whom may not be wearing an air fed during their activities.

Worth a read too- https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/books/hsg258.htm

[Pete RimmerParticipant @peterimmer30576]

My expensive Licoln tig welder (~5k new) re-sets the digital clock on my workshop wall to 01:00 01/01/1999 sometimes and for some strange reason also causes it to play Greensleeves at the same time, due the the HF start. My £80 Lidl plasma never has.

So I'm with Mark Rand on this.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Last time I looked 2.5mm was good for 27Amps

regards Martin

Where things normally fail is bad terminations or worn socket connectors so the pins get hot.

Edited By Martin Kyte on 15/03/2023 22:03:44

[samuel heywoodParticipant @samuelheywood23031]

Been a giggle reading this thread. Illegal/not illegal, not sure i'd really care in this particular instance, but looks like i missed the boat on getting one.

It should be illegal my neighbours irradiating me with multiple wireless networks, but it isn't.

Did anyone actually buy one & use it? Any good?

Just for the record, 1.5mm2 flex is good for 16A , ~ie that's it's IEE (?) (conservative) rating.

A 13A british plug run for any length of time @ 13A is prone to get hot.

Please DO NOT fit a cheap Chinese 13A plug. They just aint up to the job. Please at least buy a decent plug MK or whatever.

For high current devices i actually fit old pre insulated pin British made plugs (i've a few squirreled away)

Now that technically is also illegal, but if you compare the build quality to any modern 13A plug ~ well lets just say i'd trust my electrical safety to the old plugs any day.

FWIW, If you have a 'period' electrical appliance fitted with an old style plug that needs a PAT test & the tester fails it on the plug, tell them to take a running jump.They are wrong.

Only fitting an old plug to more modern equipment is a PAT fail.

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

Posted by Matthew Britton on 15/03/2023 17:52:06:

The one thing I've not seen mentioned is LEV. I'm an ex welder fabricator and I'm now a supporting engineer for Naval workshops and I cannot stress highly enough the dangers of metal fumes from cutting and welding. My recommendation is to purchase an air fed mask and ensure good ventilation when metal cutting. If in a professional environment then a suitable Local Exhaust Ventilation system is a must too especially as it protects other workers in close proximity whom may not be wearing an air fed during their activities.

Worth a read too- https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/books/hsg258.htm

This is a good point which is often overlooked in a home workshop, for an occasional user a PAPR headtop is probably a bit much, but at least buying some metal fume rated disposable masks would be a good idea.

This said, for anyone who welds frequently or for long periods they're worth having. I bought a second-hand 3M Adflo which is hands down the single best purchase I have made for welding, massively improved my comfort levels whilst also protecting my lungs, what's not to like.

I also installed an LEV system (albeit home made) which is essential for arc-welding inside as the fumes from burning 30 or 40 cellulosic rods in quick succession will totally overwhelm the workshop without the ventilator running.

All this said, I tend to do plasma and flame cutting outside due to the sheer volume of sparks and molten slag produced.

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Posted by samuel heywood on 15/03/2023 23:54:18:

………………, but looks like i missed the boat on getting one.
……………………..

A 13A british plug run for any length of time @ 13A is prone to get hot.
………………….

For high current devices i actually fit old pre insulated pin British made plugs (i've a few squirreled away)
……………………………..

Only fitting an old plug to more modern equipment is a PAT fail.

The plasma cutters without the built in compressor were on offer again last Sunday, so your local Lidl might have one left.

Last year I picked up something second hand, though I can't remember what it was now, but certainly advertised as tested and in working order.
It also had one of the older plugs without the extra insulators.
I did chop it off though, and fitted a good used plug from my squirrel stocks.

The main screw was so rusted I needed to get inside with a Warrington screwdriver to check the fuse.

Bill

Edited By peak4 on 16/03/2023 01:19:35

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 09/03/2022 21:48:37:

The fact that plasma cutters inherently generate interference and it is difficult and expensive to mitigate is one reason why there are very few that meet domestic interference regulations.

What's the implication of running equipment which meets the relevant standards for Class A (Industrial) but not Class B (Domestic) in a home environment, it's not clear from a cursory search what duty (if any) to control for EMI from CE marked equipment is placed on the end user, or from which law(s) such a duty would originate.

 

My plasma cutter is a 50A ESAB jobbie, the manual declares that it is designed to EN50199 (Electromagnetic compatibility – Product standard for arc welding equipment) for conformity with 89/336/EEC (the EMC compatibility directive), so in principle is it is an entirely compliant device, but it very clearly falls into Class A.

When the DNO visited to discuss putting in a 3-phase supply, they didn't bat an eyelid at the equipment, because from a network perspective my utilisation levels and number of starts was well below that of several light industrial users connected to the same substation.

 

I would also be interested to know if running off a Gen-Set decreases or removes the problems, or if it's actually RF emissions which are the issue (as with HF start TIG welders).

Edited By Jelly on 16/03/2023 01:31:09

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by Jelly on 16/03/2023 01:23:36:

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 09/03/2022 21:48:37:

The fact that plasma cutters inherently generate interference and it is difficult and expensive to mitigate is one reason why there are very few that meet domestic interference regulations.

What's the implication of running equipment which meets the relevant standards for Class A (Industrial) but not Class B (Domestic) in a home environment, it's not clear from a cursory search what duty (if any) to control for EMI from CE marked equipment is placed on the end user, or from which law(s) such a duty would originate.

My plasma cutter is a 50A ESAB jobbie, the manual declares that it is designed to EN50199 (Electromagnetic compatibility – Product standard for arc welding equipment) for conformity with 89/336/EEC (the EMC compatibility directive), so in principle is it is an entirely compliant device, but it very clearly falls into Class A.

When the DNO visited to discuss putting in a 3-phase supply, they didn't bat an eyelid at the equipment, because from a network perspective my utilisation levels and number of starts was well below that of several light industrial users connected to the same substation.

I would also be interested to know if running off a Gen-Set decreases or removes the problems, or if it's actually RF emissions which are the issue (as with HF start TIG welders).

Edited By Jelly on 16/03/2023 01:31:09

I expect that many inverter machines specifically advise against running from a generator. Many have, I suspect, failed due to the ‘less than satisfactory waveform’ from a small generator output. Likely OK for larger much generators, but not for a lot of cheaper, small sets with very basic AVRs.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Posted by Jelly on 16/03/2023 01:23:36:

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 09/03/2022 21:48:37:

The fact that plasma cutters inherently generate interference and it is difficult and expensive to mitigate is one reason why there are very few that meet domestic interference regulations.

What's the implication of running equipment which meets the relevant standards for Class A (Industrial) but not Class B (Domestic) in a home environment, it's not clear from a cursory search what duty (if any) to control for EMI from CE marked equipment is placed on the end user, or from which law(s) such a duty would originate.

 

My plasma cutter is a 50A ESAB jobbie, the manual declares that it is designed to EN50199 (Electromagnetic compatibility – Product standard for arc welding equipment) for conformity with 89/336/EEC (the EMC compatibility directive), so in principle is it is an entirely compliant device, but it very clearly falls into Class A.

When the DNO visited to discuss putting in a 3-phase supply, they didn't bat an eyelid at the equipment, because from a network perspective my utilisation levels and number of starts was well below that of several light industrial users connected to the same substation.

 

I would also be interested to know if running off a Gen-Set decreases or removes the problems, or if it's actually RF emissions which are the issue (as with HF start TIG welders).

Edited By Jelly on 16/03/2023 01:31:09

It is illegal, technically, to connect an industrial machine to a domestic supply. A Domestic supply is one which has a third party domestic dwelling connected to the same low voltage feed from the substation / transformer. The law assumes that only industrial users will purchase industrial machines. As with many things the legislation has not kept up with the market. The problem will only be addressed when there is an incident. The consumer market sellers of these things are pushing the limits and could face action if something goes wrong.

In a related development, much to the dismay of the hobby electronics community, Keysight (formerly Agilent and Hewlett Packard) have decided that they will not sell to or support equipment in the consumer market. This means unless you have a VAT number or limited company you cannot buy equipment, parts or even calibration direct from them. They still sell through Farnell, RS etc and even have an ebay shop. But if you buy a multimeter from Farnell Keysight won't give you support or calibrate it. The reason given: The eguipment is designed for professional use and not certified to consumer product standards. The implication is either there was a incident that was settled privately or the corporate lawers woke up and said no.
This is of course completely against the ethos of the original HP company. Bill and Dave would not be happy.

Robert.

Edited By Robert Atkinson 2 on 16/03/2023 09:05:48

Edited By Robert Atkinson 2 on 16/03/2023 09:06:53

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 16/03/2023 09:05:05:

Posted by Jelly on 16/03/2023 01:23:36:

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 09/03/2022 21:48:37:

The fact that plasma cutters inherently generate interference and it is difficult and expensive to mitigate is one reason why there are very few that meet domestic interference regulations.

What's the implication of running equipment which meets the relevant standards for Class A (Industrial) but not Class B (Domestic) in a home environment, it's not clear from a cursory search what duty (if any) to control for EMI from CE marked equipment is placed on the end user, or from which law(s) such a duty would originate.

It is illegal, technically, to connect an industrial machine to a domestic supply. A Domestic supply is one which has a third party domestic dwelling connected to the same low voltage feed from the substation / transformer. The law assumes that only industrial users will purchase industrial machines. As with many things the legislation has not kept up with the market. The problem will only be addressed when there is an incident. The consumer market sellers of these things are pushing the limits and could face action if something goes wrong.

Where is that set out in legislation though and what does it say specifically?

It's not just out of line with market conditions, but it is also clearly at odds with how the power distribution grid in both rural areas and urban areas with large amounts of light industrial units interspersed with housing (Birmingham, Manchester, Sheffield) functions.

Edited By Jelly on 16/03/2023 10:26:45

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Jelly,

That's the problem, the legislaation is at odds with reality. There is not a single law that says you can't plug an industrial (not light) unit into a domestic supply.
There are laws that say you must not cause interfence and other standards that defne the levels considered interference. These are different for domestic, commercial / light industrial and induastrial envronments. The expectation is that domestic users won't buy industrial equipment. In the past that was generlly true due to cost size and distribution methods. Technological advances and marketing changes have changed that. The equipment manufacturers still design and test to the industrial (higher level) standards, not their problem…

A similar issue applies to some directly dangerous equipment. For example (UK) X-ray generators to use one professonally you need training permits/licences/registration a radiation safety officer etc but all these laws apply to professonal use only. They obviously think that no member of he public would buy and use a X-ray generator so there is no legislation or restriction on purchase. To use an American phrase "I plead the fifth"

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

I shouldn’t think they are bothered what you connect so long as it is not generating huge emissions.

Industry pays at a different rate to domestic consumers ( and doesn’t get Gov subsidy in an energy crisis) but generally at a lower rate per kW.

What’s the odds between a 3kW pressure washer and a 3kW table saw.?

regards

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Jelly on 16/03/2023 10:15:52:

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 16/03/2023 09:05:05:

Posted by Jelly on 16/03/2023 01:23:36:

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 09/03/2022 21:48:37:

The fact that plasma cutters inherently generate interference and it is difficult and expensive to mitigate is one reason why there are very few that meet domestic interference regulations.

…

It is illegal, technically, to connect an industrial machine to a domestic supply. A Domestic supply is one which has a third party domestic dwelling connected to the same low voltage feed from the substation / transformer. …

Where is that set out in legislation though and what does it say specifically?

It's not just out of line with market conditions, but it is also clearly at odds with how the power distribution grid in both rural areas and urban areas with large amounts of light industrial units interspersed with housing (Birmingham, Manchester, Sheffield) functions.

…

We can all agree that the law is often a mess. Badly worded Acts of Parliament, enforcement unfunded, delegation of powers, and a system that confirms or denies interpretations through the courts. It means what somebody thinks it means until a successful challenge changes it. Simple clear rules are unusual in my experience!

Robert's definition of a 'Domestic Supply' would appeal to an engineer, but I don't think it's a rule suppliers follow. I believe the difference between a 'Domestic Supply' and an 'Industrial Supply' is more to do with the contract and tariffs rather than the actual wiring. A domestic supply assumes the consumer's needs are simple; basically about 80A single-phase, with Terms and Conditions attached that empower them to intervene if a customer breaks the rules, maybe connecting something that disrupts the neighbours supply, or upsets the distribution network. A man knocks on the door and says he will disconnect the supply unless you stop or arrange a suitable supply.

The suitable supply could be industrial, one where the tariff, Ts&Cs, and wiring are all agreed to a suitable standard; that is the load is professionally matched to the supply, not just plugged in like a Hoover. A 100HP machine centre needs more than a 13A plug and a pre-payment meter! The professional matching triggers a whole bunch of different legal and safety requirements, and of course installing a big machine centre that does more than light work will change the status of the building from dwelling to something requiring planning permission, with a different tax liability.

Being able to buy lots of light industrial equipment that will just about work OK in an ordinary house is a new phenomenon. Lidl and others selling tools only a business could have afforded in the recent past, to folk who just want to plug them in at home without reading the small-print.

I suspect no-one will care about semi-industrial tool being a bit leery until there's a major incident. A serious complaint will result in an investigation, and then action might be taken. Unlikely we'll end up in gaol! More likely told to switch it off, or made to pay for a suitable supply. It's the paying bit that Model Engineers don't like!

Dave

[Maurice TaylorParticipant @mauricetaylor82093]

Being able to buy lots of light industrial equipment that will just about work OK in an ordinary house is a new phenomenon. Lidl and others selling tools only a business could have afforded in the recent past, to folk who just want to plug them in at home without reading the small-print.

Hi, Dave

Please explain “just about work ok in an ordinary house”.

Maurice

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

I’m not sure that the law works quite the way some think it does and I guess this would be civil rather than criminal law. From the authorities side of the fence it would be about granting the power to enforce compliance where appropriate which has a good deal of judgement attached.

As to that 100 hp machine someone mentioned, that would be around 3 times the current available from my supply which is 100Amps so no need to resort to the courts the supply fuse would disconnect the property itself.

regards Martin

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

My description of an industrial or domestic supply is that used for conducted emissions standards. Nothing to do with power cost or billing. Harmonics generated by you plasma cutter will to some extent be absorbed you the supply transformer (causing it to overheat or have insulation breakdown which the distribution company don't like) so less likely to affect a domestic user on a different connection.

"just about work" may refer to equipment that draws more power than a 13A outlet is rated for but when used intermittently and / or at less than full output will work OK. I have in the past used a 4kVA power source (>16A input) on a 13A plug. However it was clearly labeled with an output current that was not to be exceeded and just to be sure had a 10A fuse in the plug. The plug fuse did operate once during a long test….

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 16/03/2023 14:50:48:

My description of an industrial or domestic supply is that used for conducted emissions standards. Nothing to do with power cost or billing. Harmonics generated by you plasma cutter will to some extent be absorbed you the supply transformer (causing it to overheat or have insulation breakdown which the distribution company don't like) so less likely to affect a domestic user on a different connection.

"just about work" may refer to equipment that draws more power than a 13A outlet is rated for but when used intermittently and / or at less than full output will work OK. I have in the past used a 4kVA power source (>16A input) on a 13A plug. However it was clearly labeled with an output current that was not to be exceeded and just to be sure had a 10A fuse in the plug. The plug fuse did operate once during a long test….

I agree with you on emissions and I said as much in an earlier post. So when you run your ‘industrial’ kit make sure you stay within the domestic emissions limits.

regards Martin

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, the maximum power you can use at home, is whatever the supply will allow, in my case it is 60A at 230V. I have a 30A socket to plug in my inverter welder, and it will struggle to work on anything less, basically for the arc striking threshold but doesn't use that much during actual welding, and my old manual metal arc welder has always blown a domestic plug top fuse if I use the top end of the output, so that gets plugged into a 16A socket.

So what makes the difference from a Plasma cutter to a TIG welder or an inverter welder, as far as emissions are concerned?

I will say that my nearest neighbour is about 100 meters away, and the local mains transformer is about 500 meters away, and I haven't had any complaints about any interference from anyone.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 16/03/2023 15:59:02

[peak4Participant @peak4]

If anyone's near Glossop, and in the market for one, Lidl had 4 plasma cutters in stock when we left at about 16.30 today.
None of the accessory kits left though.

Bill

[Pete RimmerParticipant @peterimmer30576]

I wonder if anyone can find any instance of anyone ever being prosecuted or penalised in any way for using 'industrial' equipment on a domestic supply, in respect of the circumstances here? I suspect not.

Many industrial units only have a single phase supply no different to a domestic one.

Edited By Pete Rimmer on 16/03/2023 17:58:05

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Posted by Nicholas Farr on 16/03/2023 15:58:15:

Hi, the maximum power you can use at home, is whatever the supply will allow, in my case it is 60A at 230V. I have a 30A socket to plug in my inverter welder, and it will struggle to work on anything less, basically for the arc striking threshold but doesn't use that much during actual welding, and my old manual metal arc welder has always blown a domestic plug top fuse if I use the top end of the output, so that gets plugged into a 16A socket.

So what makes the difference from a Plasma cutter to a TIG welder or an inverter welder, as far as emissions are concerned?

I will say that my nearest neighbour is about 100 meters away, and the local mains transformer is about 500 meters away, and I haven't had any complaints about any interference from anyone.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 16/03/2023 15:59:02

Industrial TIGs and inverter welders can suffer from the same issues This is only talking about plasma cutters because that was the original subject. Plama cutters do tend to be worse because the plasma is produced by radio frequency power.
Lack of complaint is not evidence of lack of interference. A user may not associate disconnections / slow responce of their internet or failure o a electronic device (due to harmonics) with your hobby activities. It is also hard to track down the source without specialist equipment. Not like radio amateurs who have to give their call signs and often have large antennas.

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