Plasma cutter at lidl

[peak4Participant @peak4]

None delivered to the stores in Sheffield today unfortunately.
I'll try Glossop tomorrow, assuming I make it there with the wind.

Bill

[Pete.Participant @pete-2]

There's a video on YT where a German guy takes the cover off this model and discusses the components inside, his general concensus seemed to be for a budget machine it was pretty good, so I decided to get one.

I went to Wigston LIDL first, they didn't know anything about it and no sign it had ever been put out for sale, gave their helpline a call and their policy is that they do not give out any information as to which stores have certain items listed on their website.

In an age where we're charged for plastic bags to save the environment, telling customers to aimlessly drive around and just hope where they go has some in stock seems ridiculous.

I nipped over to Hinckley and they had loads in stock, haven't tried it yet but the build quality seems pretty decent.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Grabbed the motor before the missus headed off to work and my local Lidl had a couple for £150

Opened it up and it has a 16A plug

It's from the "performance" series of gear which is their line of good quality tradesmans tools, my cordless drill was the same and the build quality is a step up from the usual basic green stuff, they are made to be worked

They'll be on ebay for 250 plus within a week or two

Edited By Ady1 on 18/02/2022 09:35:29

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Posted by Pete. on 18/02/2022 00:27:30:

There's a video on YT where a German guy takes the cover off this model and discusses the components inside, his general concensus seemed to be for a budget machine it was pretty good, so I decided to get one.

I went to Wigston LIDL first, they didn't know anything about it and no sign it had ever been put out for sale, gave their helpline a call and their policy is that they do not give out any information as to which stores have certain items listed on their website.

In an age where we're charged for plastic bags to save the environment, telling customers to aimlessly drive around and just hope where they go has some in stock seems ridiculous.

I nipped over to Hinckley and they had loads in stock, haven't tried it yet but the build quality seems pretty decent.

What type of 16A plug, an industrial round 3 pin with blue body or "Euro" with 2 pins and side contact for earth?

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Its the 3pin

A chap on utube has already swapped his out for a 13A plug and it runs fine but I may get an adaptor to ensure the 3 year g'tee is ok

[mgnbukParticipant @mgnbuk]

Opened it up and it has a 16A plug

You didn't need to open it up to find that out – the remaining one at my local Lidl had printed on the outside of the box "fitted with an industrial 16A plug" with a picture of a round blue plug.

Don't have a need for one, so moved on past. Did (eventually) manage to get one of the £20 5" angle grinders last week, though.

Nigel B.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Hmm,
As stated previously, running these off a 13A socket, by changing the plug or using an adaptor, is illegal.
So is using it in a residential area.
Enforcement is virtually non-existent though and you will probably never know who you are causing interference to.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by Bazyle on 17/02/2022 21:45:14:

Just an empty bin with a price tag at my store so assumed all gone from an early delivery as per initial post but maybe just not delivered as per Alan's post. Would they put the price tag on though if no stock?

Only one at my local store. Box was empty before 08:01h ‘cos it was already in my grasp.

I had considered Henry’s Eastwood versa cut, but without a guarantee of it working after being stored long-term, I opted for this one – lower quality but guaranteed to work without changing caps and FETs.

One word of caution for users – run it from the mains, not from a small generator.

I checked late on Wednesday evening and saw the price label on the shelf, so knew exactly where it was going to be found. I made sure I was the first in line by queuing ten minutes before opening time.🙂

[PETER ROACHParticipant @peterroach92938]

Picked one up first thing Thursday morning in Droitwich store, by 2 pm all gone. Yet to unpack and play. It is not illegal to sell for use industrial equipment or then to use on domestic, as such. A grey loop hole. Think of the number of people who do not add filters to retro installs of inverters, again specified to the upper emissions curves and non studio grade LED strip lights. Luckily most of the kit we use has high immunity covering up for our wide disregard for exact compliance.

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

I'd like to see cites for Robert's assertions.

In the meantilme it wont affect me for two reasons:-

1) Our Lidl in Rugby didn't have any.

2) My single phase welders already run from 16A BS4343 sockets in the workshop. There's a 32A one available for the old Oxford Bantam in the garage if I ever wanted to use it when SWMBO wasn't running the heat treating pottery kiln.

I do like the idea of a plasma cutter with a built in compressor. I notice that it also seems to have a spacer/trolley included for the torch, which is a good touch.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Peter R.
It IS illegal to use it on a domestic supply bceause it does not meet the electromagnetic emissions standard for domestic environments. Even the manual says this, but not in plain language.
You are unlikely to see any enforcement though.
My main issue is with Lidl sellin these in a domestic retail outlet.
I sked them abou this but have had no response……

Robert.

[PETER ROACHParticipant @peterroach92938]

Robert,

CISPR 11, which I assume this has been tested to ( not a motor so not CISPR14) gives two classes. Class A suitable for use in all establishments other than domestic building. The argument would be if a workshop is a domestic building.But typical a distance from a domestic dwelling or outdoors since a portable unit with in-built compressor, and so could be argued that unlike a microwave, in class B, that likely to be installed within the dwelling and there therefore class A. ( I don’t intend to use this in my living room.) the source of supply not necessarily relevant. Mixed sites, developments have a supply, no distinction as to mode of operation from that supply. So it maybe illegal to operate IN a domestic building, but not ON a “ domestic “ supply. The manufacturer is ask to document the class and implications, which they have “ but not in plain language “ You May have a more update copy of CISPR 11, am I missing some change? All change again on product safety when we get to the end of the and need UKCA?

[Ray LyonsParticipant @raylyons29267]

I went into my Lidl on Thursday to find only one left. Lifted it into my trolley and then decided that the lump was too heavy. Put it back on the pallet and another guy immediately grabbed it and carried it to the checkout. Now in my 80++ years, do not think it would be used much so I hope that the new owner is in greater need.

I would still like to hear from buyers about the performance of the machine

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Peter R.
According to the manual https://www.usermanual.uk/parkside/ppsk-40-a1/manual?p=85 the Parkside PPSK 40-A1 conforms to EN55011 (basically same as CISPR 11) Class A. Class A devices are heavy industrial and are not allowed to be connected to the same supply as any domestic premises. So unless you have your own feed to the electrical substation or transformer, seperate even from your own house, It is technically illegal to use it.
The manual also references IEC 61000-3-12 which relates to harmonics. The manual states the cutter is only compliant for harmonics if the supply impedance must be less than 0.024 ohm. Well actually the manual is obtuse and refers to the short circuit power as 2446.7 kW miimum. From this we can calculate the current (>10,000 A) and impedance. This is a totally unrealistic impedance for a domestic supply (except perhaps for some parts of London which have a grid distribution scheme) If the cable from the main feeder in the road is more than 30 feet there is no way you can reach this low an impedance.
The harmonics generated can damage other equipment on the supply as well as causing interference.

It is at best poor practice by Lidl to sell this in retail outlets. The warning and conditions in the manual are meaningless to the average purchaser.

Robrt G8RPI.

Edit, a more appropriate EMC standard would be IEC 60974-10 but that still references EN 55011 and the cutter would still be class A. It probably would not meet all the requirements of 60974-10

Edited By Robert Atkinson 2 on 20/02/2022 16:45:08

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Posted by Ray Lyons on 20/02/2022 15:32:54:

I would still like to hear from buyers about the performance of the machine

It lifts home metal cutting to a new level

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by Ady1 on 20/02/2022 17:51:38:

Posted by Ray Lyons on 20/02/2022 15:32:54:

I would still like to hear from buyers about the performance of the machine

It lifts home metal cutting to a new level

Ady has it – but just to a different level compared to the previous (several?) threads on Lidl plasmas, which may only have been 30A machines? I’ve not yet taken mine out of the box, but one issue might be that of dry air required for the cutting part of the machine.

For what I want (rather than need) it will make some jobs that much more inviting. The compressor (for me) was an unnecessary expensive addition. But there again, my main compressor is not exactly ‘portable’.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Interesting…

When I bought mine, I noted that the tape across the box had been ‘reinforced/overlaid’. I assumed this was a ‘factory mod’ to hurriedly replace the plug with a 16A one – likely after comments on here, or elsewhere.

I have just getting around to trying it out – not had chance, really, since buying it.

HOWEVER, I thought I would check a little closer this morning and guess what!?

The power lead is only of 1.5mm ^2 cross section! Cheap s*ds replaced a 13A plug with a 16A rated plug on a 10A rated flex.

Should we be requesting a suitably rated flex? I think so.

[Steve Skelton 1Participant @steveskelton1]

Posted by not done it yet on 08/03/2022 10:56:53:

The power lead is only of 1.5mm ^2 cross section! Cheap s*ds replaced a 13A plug with a 16A rated plug on a 10A rated flex.

Should we be requesting a suitably rated flex? I think so.

Certified 1.5mm^2 flexible cord has a 16 A current carrying capacity at 230V AC so should be adequate for the purpose. I suspect the unit would overheat before the cable did.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Posted by not done it yet on 08/03/2022 10:56:53:

Interesting…

When I bought mine, I noted that the tape across the box had been ‘reinforced/overlaid’. I assumed this was a ‘factory mod’ to hurriedly replace the plug with a 16A one – likely after comments on here, or elsewhere.

I have just getting around to trying it out – not had chance, really, since buying it.

HOWEVER, I thought I would check a little closer this morning and guess what!?

The power lead is only of 1.5mm ^2 cross section! Cheap s*ds replaced a 13A plug with a 16A rated plug on a 10A rated flex.

Should we be requesting a suitably rated flex? I think so.

That was probably a return by someone who wanted a 13A plug.

The previous release of '30A' machines (I have one) were Euro 40A /16A plug versions with the current limiting pot turned down and a 13A plug fitted. The lead is still 1.5sqmm.

Current ratings depend on how much heat you are prepared to accept in the cable. Companies like BT in the 90's were only happy with no heat rise above ambient due to PVC plasticizer migration at 60degC, their buildings have windows and the sun can cause that much heat on it's own. So cables were sized more generously than some of the cable tv firms.

In this case the shortness of the lead mitigates the issue and I doubt for DIY use you will notice much heat in the 5 minutes that you will have it cutting.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Definitely Read the Flipping Manual!

Very clear this is an Industrial machine designed to run on an industrial type supply, not an ordinary 13A domestic socket. The 16A plug is surely a strong hint!

Unfortunately, the manual doesn't specify input current or power. However the 16A plug means a 13A spur will supply the cutter, even though overloaded. So far so good.

Unfortunately, putting a 13A plug on the machine breaks all the requirements listed in manual. The warranty is void, the cutter no longer meets even slack industrial EMC requirements and it's highly likely to annoy neighbours. If the house burns down it's 100% the owners fault. Best hope the insurer doesn't find out, because most policies don't cover damage caused by operating industrial machinery and especially not industrial machines electrically modified by an over-confident hobbyist!

Safer ground if the machine is plugged into a professionally installed 16A socket because it's more likely the supply meets the necessary standard. Otherwise fitting a 13A plug means the owner is taking a risk.

I'm all for risk managed engineering, but it does require an adequate understanding of what might go wrong, what the impact will be, ways of mitigating the risk, and a recovery plan should the worst happen.

One risk is poor EMC wiping out radio signals – radio, tv, mobile phones, satellite, and WiFi. Impact ranges from zero, because they don't find who's causing it, to getting duffed up by an angry football fan after you zapped the cup final climax. Expect policemen if an essential radio service is disrupted, followed by fines and confiscation of equipment. None of this is likely is the cutter is operated intermittently in short bursts and there are no close neighbours: it's just anti-social.

More serious is the prospect of damaging cables inside the walls by overheating the insulation, perhaps slowly baking it until it disintegrates and causes a house fire. Fitting a 13A fuse only partly protects against this because fuses can actually take 20A continuously, 50A for 100 seconds and 80A for 1 second. If I owned one of these cutters I'd measure how much mains current it actually draws when cutting: below 13A, I'm happy (apart from the EMC). Anything in the 15-40A range is unacceptably risky because a 13A fuse allows the cutter to work for a long time in short bursts, with dodgy consequences.

Dave

[Frances IoMParticipant @francesiom58905]

ring mains being 2 x 2.5mm^2 cabled are generally protected these days with a 32A RCB – the 13A fuse is only there to protect the cable from the socket to the device (only the UK has such a scheme – its utility has often been questioned)

Edited By Frances IoM on 08/03/2022 15:00:14

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

One could always use a 15A round pin plug and sockets. .

I wouldn't be worried about the Lidl plasma cutter's EMI emmisions, Any plasma cutter will produce a fair amount of EMI, and a fair number of us probably have far more highly rated ones.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Frances IoM on 08/03/2022 14:59:29:
ring mains being 2 x 2.5mm^2 cabled are generally protected these days with a 32A RCB – the 13A fuse is only there to protect the cable from the socket to the device (only the UK has such a scheme – its utility has often been questioned)…

True, but unwise to assume that. My home, which isn't ancient, has an old-fashioned consumer unit with fuses. I suspect many sheds and home workshops have downright dubious electrics. Much depends on who installed it and when…

Dave

[Gerhard NovakParticipant @gerhardnovak66893]

I think the whole 13A / 16A discussion comes from the fact that the German standard (Schuko) plugs are rated 16A. 1.5mm2 is the right cross section for that. For some reason standard plugs in the UK are rated 13A.

As Frances IoM said further up the 13A fuse is to protect the flexibe cable from the socket to the device – the cable is the same in whole Europe (even the UK is no longer in the EU we still are a member of CENELEC and will be in the future, and we use flexible cables according to BS EN 50525 – which are harmonised all over Europe)

The type H05VV-F 3G1.5 according to BS EN 50525-2.11 is rated 16A. So it will not overheat.

[Frances IoMParticipant @francesiom58905]

if your home still has fuses then I would strongly recommend that you upgrade a probably 40+ year old system to a more modern box with residual current based safety devices

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