Plans for updating the archaic forum?

[OldironParticipant @oldiron]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 12/02/2021 09:56:13:

Posted by JasonB on 12/02/2021 07:06:19:

The New system gives you more options […]

on the very customisable layout, see this forum with it's latest posts at the top right and a lot of other things that can fill that right hand column.

.

Oh dear … is that what’s coming ?

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MichaelG.

Well I can barely read that site. BUT i can win points for contributions. No thanks

regards

edit spelling

Edited By Oldiron on 12/02/2021 10:42:20

[John PParticipant @johnp77052]

Posted by
Howi 12/02/2021 10:02:38
to put an end to this nonsense lets have a poll, change the forum or
leave as is, I would suspect the latter.

Do you think that they would really be interested in your opinion
or mine.

From Jason's later post

At 12/02/2021 10:16:26

Maybe, maybe not Michael as it all depends on (how MTM decide to
customise the forum for our use), take a look at the RCM&E one that
Ketan linked to as that is in the early stages of what we may end up with here.

From the part in brackets it would seem the decision has already been made ,
they just have not announced it yet.

John

[Grindstone CowboyParticipant @grindstonecowboy]

Posted by Andrew Tinsley on 12/02/2021 10:34:53:

What idiot uses white letters on a black background?

"Dark mode", as they call it, is a way of making your phone battery last longer, but is a right pain for reading stuff. I very rarely access forums (fora?) on my phone anyway.

Rob

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Andrew Tinsley on 12/02/2021 10:34:53:

… What idiot uses white letters on a black background?

This is the sort of idiocy that puts people off.

Andrew

Err, me! White on black reduces glare and is less tiring. It's preferred for heavy screen users and I see the most common criticism of made by RCM&E members is of excessive white space. They think the new layout is too loud, too bright!

Ideally, a forum would allow the user to choose which way round his display is. Might be possible on RCM&E but if available it probably requires the user to be somewhat computer savvy – not everyone's cup of tea.

I remarked earlier that emotion is a rotten master. Is it likely the people designing RCM&E are idiots? I doubt it. Truth is, getting look and feel right is difficult because people vary so widely.

Dave

[egaParticipant @ega]

White on black: my impression is that its popularity is largely due to the lower current needed to drive the screen.

In the early days of word processing yellow on blue was favoured.

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

SOD, I DO have a great deal of difficulty in reading the white lettering on a black background. The longer I read the worse it gets, until I start to get a headache. I do a considerable amount of reading and have never had eye fatigue in this way. My usual book reading sessions are around 2 to 3 hours

Seriously I would have to give up the forum if that is going to happen The current format of black on a grey background is ideal, it also gets away from the complaint of being "too bright"

Andrew.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Black on brilliant white high contrast is frowned on by RNIB and ideally neads to be a user customisable but equally some people's sight impairment needs a high contrast option.
Back in 1980 the BBC computer specifically used white on blue as being the most eye friendly.

Often it is little features that are significant and you wonder why nobody called them out in initial user testing. Eg on another forum to launch with the latest post of a thread you have to click a tiny little target – technically it does work but surely the first actual user told them it should be ten times the size.

[Frances IoMParticipant @francesiom58905]

It is depressing to read just how much the original + still valid ideas of Tim Berners Lee have been prostituted in the name of commerce and attention getting – his original, and to me the all important one, was to present the information in a form the user could readily change (eg by altering font size, type, background + text colour etc – not only did this allow all the options above it also allowed the easy use of speech synthesis for those with impaired sight.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

John Pace posted at 11.09 on 12/02/21 : From the part in brackets it would seem the decision has already been made , they just have not announced it yet.

– I am not so sure John. Advertisers have yet to be approached. I hope that what they are doing with RCM&E is an experiment rather than set in stone, before considering to roll out across their other sites. If the RCM&E experiment is the direction, it looks like they will be far less dependent on advertisers… going the self sufficient route. Personally I am not a fan of adverts flashing in-between posts of a thread, as it is difficult to focus on the topic. I am also not a fan of grey text, but that is my opinion only.

SOD posted at 11.58 on 12/02/21 : Is it likely the people designing RCM&E are idiots? I doubt it.

– Well, that depends on how many people they end up pleasing, and every person has their own mind.

– Before rolling out on the possible NEW LOOK ME forum, I hope they look at and read the contents of this thread. Note the following:

• the demographics of RCM&E are probably younger than that on this forum.
• On ME there is a good mix of older and younger (over 30 years of age) audience.
• MTM needs to be aware that the older generation with knowledge on this forum are the people who mainly make up the main content of this forum, and teach the younger people who are entering the hobby. Older generation doesn't like drastic changes to take place quickly.
• MTM needs the older generation to attract the younger audience. At the same time, the younger audience may like the flash bang hip stuff offered by cool looking forums to invite them in. So, some compromise may be considered… but not too drastic.
• ME forums world ranking is far higher than any of the other titles in its portfolio:

ME ranks around 322,000 today, RCM&E ranks around 1.6 million, Model boats 9M, getwoodworking 2.2M, Patchwork & Quilting 6.6M, Stamp and Craft Stamper … too low for classification. As of today, ME is the highest ranked in the world within the metalworking hobby sites.

So, whatever direction MTM decides to take, they may need to keep the above in mind… to keep their audience.

Ketan at ARC

[OldironParticipant @oldiron]

Posted by Andrew Tinsley on 12/02/2021 13:29:08:

SOD, I DO have a great deal of difficulty in reading the white lettering on a black background. The longer I read the worse it gets, until I start to get a headache. I do a considerable amount of reading and have never had eye fatigue in this way. My usual book reading sessions are around 2 to 3 hours

Seriously I would have to give up the forum if that is going to happen The current format of black on a grey background is ideal, it also gets away from the complaint of being "too bright"

Andrew.

I 100% agree Andrew. The text colour & background colour on this forum is ideal for me.

I have great difficulty reading virtually any mixture of colored text on coloured back ground. Am waiting for eye operation but God alone knows when that will be. I doubt there will be a huge improvement after the op.

regards

[PatJParticipant @patj87806]

I can't use the black background when reading text.

I think some use that background to create a dramatic effect, and differentiate themselves from a crowded forum landscape.

The black background is too hard on my eyes.

But ironically, I do CAD work for a large part of every day, and I have to use a black background for that.

I tried a white background with CAD work, and it produces the same eye strain as viewing text on a black background.

Go figure. I am not sure what is at play with the background and the difference between viewing text and CAD work.

But I cannot do 5 minutes of CAD work using a white background without going blind.

There is some forum software that allows the users to choose their own colors/background/text style, etc.

That is the best of both worlds I think, since everyone can customize the view to their liking, but you really should not have to do that. The screen appearance should be pleasing to just about everyone who views it.

Having tinkered around with forum software, it is surprising how very small changes in highlights, colors and shading can produce dramatic visual changes.

As I understand it, the eye sees in contrast, and so things that do not produce a sharp contrast basically are difficult to distinguish. You can adjust the contrast setting on your screen and see what I am talking about, but colors and shades of colors are very critical too.

I have been trying to figure out how to custom blend paints for finish on steam engines, and so I purchases a color wheel. There is a lot to color, and some very subtle things.

I prefer not to use the primary colors for an engine or a website. To me they seem to bold.

Colors that get into the "tint/tone/shade" region seem much more refined to me than just stark primary colors.

There is much to getting the look and feel of a forum comfortable to view.

I wish everyone here the best of luck with or without changes.

.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by Andrew Tinsley on 12/02/2021 10:34:53:

Just taken a look at the star gazers lounge. I find it extremely difficult to read. What idiot uses white letters on a black background?

This is the sort of idiocy that puts people off.

Andrew

It was quite a clever idiot who followed user requests!

Astronomers who want to read the site without completely destroying their night vision.

Backyardastro has a similar 'night vision theme' which is user selectable. SGL also allows users to change the theme.

But I suppose people would complain if given choices as they find it confusing…

Neil

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 12/02/2021 16:15:17

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Further to my previous post, the main point is that it is important that a website follows the needs of its users. The much loathed black background is very much a user need for astronomy sites.

I have made it clear to the people working on this that when the change comes we need to keep the 'feel' of the website as familiar as possible.

Whatever criticisms there are of the modelflying website, the colours used are muted, the text is clear and well spaced and the layout reacts well to different screen sizes and orientations including phones and tablets. The editor is easy to use across all devices.

These are the two most important things, after all the main functions we want from the forum are:

1. Easy to read with a clean layout.
2. Easy to follow threads and keep track of what we have read.
3. Easy to make replies including easy quoting of other posts.
4. Easy to add images and links.
5. Good search facility.

I am 100% sure that once people have got past the initial unfamiliarity they will find the new software just as good as this software on issue 1 and vastly better on 2 -5.

For example, it keeps track of which postings you have read, so you can go direct to the first new posting rather than just going direct to the first or last page of a thread. Images can be directly pasted into your posts (copy and paste) or entered as links to other websites. The editor is also far more stable and consistent across different types of computer.

Neil

[Peter GreeneParticipant @petergreene36336]

Posted by Bazyle on 12/02/2021 13:40:13:

Often it is little features that are significant and you wonder why nobody called them out in initial user testing. Eg on another forum to launch with the latest post of a thread you have to click a tiny little target – technically it does work but surely the first actual user told them it should be ten times the size.

Why? … No one, it seems, ever told Microsoft about their three tiny boxes up in the top right hand corner.

[Peter GreeneParticipant @petergreene36336]

Did I miss something here? I had thought that this thread was just a a likes/dislikes thread about the current forum software …. essentially a continual topic around here.

Now it seems to have morphed into a discussion about the "new forum software" coming down the pipe. When did that get announced?

[PatJParticipant @patj87806]

I think Neil has it right.

And I think if done correctly, numerous people will try it and like the new software.

And there is nothing to say that the new software is set in stone; new software is infinitely adjustable, and so I feel certain that it could be tweeked to suit pretty much the look/feel/needs of most folks here, and to include the improvements that Neil mentions.

Think positive. I believe it can be upgraded and still keep the members happy.

I see it as a "win-win" situation.  Looks the same, easier to use.

.

Edited By PatJ on 12/02/2021 17:27:59

Edited By PatJ on 12/02/2021 17:28:32

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

One thing that jumped out at me from the RCM&E example is it starts on the Home Page, which is really just a menu. So far, it's not clear to passing trade what the website is for, and regular vistors are already bored. If the newbie gets as far as clicking 'Forums', it opens in 'Topic View', which is the list of subjects under which posts are organised. This, I think is better for beginners because it gives them a feel for the sort of subjects the forum is about, but not so good for existing members.

Latest Posts in my view are the best entry point to this forum, and, unlike RCM&E, they are prioritised above Topics. (Which are also available on this forum if you explore.) Latest Posts are good for a community that's interested in a range of related activities rather than a few specialised subjects.

I rarely probe this site from the Topic View, much preferring to review what's new and fresh in Latest Posts or use the secret Search rather than the obvious top-right time-waster! RCM&E feels like a library that allows discussion, while we are more like a debating club which has a library. The debating club approach may explain what I like most about this forum. It's the way a wide range of questions get quality answers. I think happens because the experts are generally interested in technical conversations from Astronomy to Zoom, and don't just watching their specialised subject.

Anyway, I would like to start with 'Latest Posts' up front and obvious, rather than have to navigate to it, or even worse learn how to create personalised views and other Read The Manual tests, in order to see them!

This forums colour scheme is also a strong point. Black on light grey, with red, green and blue is easy on the eye compared with the harsh contrasts projected by RCM&E at the moment. Red and green have strong engineering associations. Disliking white space might be an age thing. As a bunch of superannuated hippies I'm sure we all revelled in binging, bright flashing lights, volume set to 11, and walks on the wild side. Raucous novelty isn't quite so welcome in the Duffer Household these days…

Dave

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 12/02/2021 16:55:15:

Further to my previous post, the main point is that it is important that a website follows the needs of its users.

I have made it clear to the people working on this that when the change comes we need to keep the 'feel' of the website as familiar as possible.

Whatever criticisms there are of the modelflying website, the colours used are muted, the text is clear and well spaced and the layout reacts well to different screen sizes and orientations including phones and tablets.

Neil,

I hope MTM looks at 'the needs' of this sites users before launching. It looks like on the RCM&E site, they have just recognised the needs of their users for darker text colour, as I can see the text more clearly this evening… changed to black or near black instead of muted grey.

Don't know what's going on with the column on the right on RCM&E site. Some pages show a column on the right, like the earlier link I posted, and some don't. Maybe work in progress.

As far as mobile platforms in different orientations are concerned, there is no column on the right to be seen, be it on RCM&E or any other site to which you linked.

Ketan at ARC

[Peter GreeneParticipant @petergreene36336]

Posted by John Haine on 11/11/2020 10:33:47:

Well that's interesting. On my Win10 laptop spell check is ctrl – rightclick. That's the kind of eccentricity that we mean – every other text editor that I know of you just place the cursor in the word and right click, no need for <shift> or <ctrl>. And some of the word suggestions seem just perverse.

Don't know if this ever got answered but I stumbled across it while reviewing the thread.

This came up years ago and iirc it depends whether you are using the spell checker provided by the forum message editor, SCAYT (in which case a simple right-click will do it) or whether you have that turned off and are using your browser's spell checker in which case ctrl-rightclick is needed.

I've always used, and prefer, the latter as it gives me a single dictionary (including my own additions) for everything here and elsewhere. I think the compromise is reasonable.

If you click on the editor icon above the message pane, you can turn SCAYT on or off.

(Note: I'm writing this from memory … it was years ago this was discussed/explained …. the original posts should succumb to a search).

[Jim GuthrieParticipant @jimguthrie82658]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 12/02/2021 16:55:15:

For example, it keeps track of which postings you have read, so you can go direct to the first new posting rather than just going direct to the first or last page of a thread.

Now there's a feature which would be welcome – present on any other forum software I can think of.

Jim.

Edited By Jim Guthrie on 12/02/2021 23:51:54

[Danny M2ZParticipant @dannym2z]

I just had another look at the RCM&E site and to be fair, the mods and developers do appear to be listening and responding quickly to user feedback.

The improvements in just a few days are quite noticeable.

So (for Neil & MTM) – Why not wait a while until the RCM&E site works through the foibles and hiccups of their software upgrade and learn from their experiences so that when MEW makes the change (it appears inevitable)) then it might make the transition a little smoother with a softer landing for the forum members?

* Danny *

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Posted by Peter Greene on 12/02/2021 17:26:34:

Did I miss something here? I had thought that this thread was just a a likes/dislikes thread about the current forum software …. essentially a continual topic around here.

Now it seems to have morphed into a discussion about the "new forum software" coming down the pipe. When did that get announced?

I'm sure it's just an amazing coincidence

and amazing coincidences can also lead on to other amazing coincidences

[John PParticipant @johnp77052]

This might be of interest to some on here who have multiple
thousands of photo's in albums .

This is what has happened to to the members photo's
on the Model flying forum.

"David Ashby – Moderator
Posted February 3

We've learned that although all photos will come across to the
new forum, albums won't. In other words you won't find your
photos neatly segregated in the gallery area on the new platform.

I don't know how important this will be to forum users, and
assume the majority just use the albums for posting, but
thought I should mention it now I'm aware."

Seems as if the photo's are all on this site in a community
jumble .
Brave new world

John

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

This is a test reply to check out the spelyng checker … please ignore

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I did read yesterday that members had been moving their photos back into newly created albums, easier the less photos that you have

[Author]

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