Plans for updating the archaic forum?

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Rod Renshaw on 12/11/2020 18:06:39:

[…]

What does disturb me about this thread is the mention of Facebook which I have always avoided because of my perception that it is unsafe and timewasting, and that it so easily leads to divisive, personal and hostile arguments, and of which US politics is an egregious example. Is Facebook really looking over our shoulders and can anything be done to prevent this?

 

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I don’t understand this well-enough to advise you, Rod

… hopefully there might be others here, who can.

I can only present the script that I found [and which made me uncomfortable]

MichaelG.

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[ click image to enlarge ]

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 12/11/2020 18:26:50

[Lee Jones 6Participant @leejones6]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 12/11/2020 18:25:55

I don’t understand this well-enough to advise you, Rod

… hopefully there might be others here, who can.

I can only present the script that I found [and which made me uncomfortable]

MichaelG.

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[ click image to enlarge ]

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 12/11/2020 18:26:50

Event tracking for directed ads. Installed, monitored and managed by MTM.

It doesn't have a great deal to do with Facebook per say; MTM subscribe (and probably pay to use) this service.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Lee Jones 6 on 12/11/2020 18:57:11:

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Event tracking for directed ads. Installed, monitored and managed by MTM.

It doesn't have a great deal to do with Facebook per say; MTM subscribe (and probably pay to use) this service.

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Thanks for that, Lee

Although I regret to say that I don’t understand the relationship sufficiently well to know if I’m comforted.

MichaelG.

[Lee Jones 6Participant @leejones6]

Thanks for that, Lee

Although I regret to say that I don’t understand the relationship sufficiently well to know if I’m comforted.

MichaelG.

Don't get me wrong, it's still Facebook Inc. collecting your information.

They're just doing so at the request of MTM.

Not entirely sure what MTM do with the information they glean, hopefully something ethical!

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

" The Facebook pixel is a snippet of JavaScript code that loads a small library of functions you can use to track Facebook ad-driven visitor activity on your website. "

Basically it allows MTM to track if people come to the website as a result of ads on Facebook i.e. to see if Facebook advertising is worth doing.

Neil

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I have no wish to stifle debate about the forum, but I'm concerned about the tone some of this debate is taking.

The software clearly has several shortcomings, but works well enough to support a thriving community.

It's clear that any future changes need to address the shortcomings without alienating the users. We have had changes in the past which generated grumbles – the change from Flash to HTML5 for the archive, for example. Long asked for by many – but when it happened some people were annoyed by the new reader.

Ultimately, changes in how the web works make changes in the forum inevitable and unavoidable. As I hope my earlier post made clear MyTimeMedia were actively researching the options but Covid means that the process has stalled indefinitely. At some point, however, changes will come. The cost of changing will, in part, reflect the amount of work needed to keep the existing forum structure and data intact as well as dealing with redirects etc. to minimise disruption to users, advertisers and search engines etc.

We have no idea what changes will come at the moment but no doubt some people will take to them like a duck to water and others will have more difficulty adjusting. As with all previous changes we will do our best to help people through any difficulties and keep disruption to a minimum.

Personally I hope any changes can make the archives more easily and consistently accessible, and we can streamline and simplify the subscription renewal process, apart from the much requested changes:

• An easier to use editor.
• Direct pasting of links, including links to some external sources automatically embedding content (e.g. video, images).
• A simpler way of managing user libraries and an end to the 'image rotation' issue.
• Easy quoting of multiple comments.
• Linking to specific comments, including in other threads.
• Being able to go direct to the first unread post in a thread.

Some nice to have features might be:

• Some slightly more advanced text formatting.
• Basic reactions (e.g. thanks, happy, sad, confused) to postings.
• Automatic signatures.
• More flexible ignore options (e.g. ignore a user completely, or just ignore their signature).
• Properly threaded personal messages.
• More attractive and useful profile pages.

None of these 'changes' would alter the fundamental feel of the forum in terms of how the discussions work or the topic structure.

Plus, the forum is only just over 11 years old (as far as I can tell). I don't think may of us have entirely lost the ability to adapt to a few changes over the past decade?

I'm happy for people to offer their own views on what they would like to see kept or changed, but please can get away from framing any changes as an 'us versus them' situation, please?

Neil

[Brian HParticipant @brianh50089]

Thanks very much for the explanations Neil.

Brian

[PatJParticipant @patj87806]

Forum software that I am familiar with are "SimpleMacines", and "Xenforo".

The SimpleMachines software is pretty nice, but I must say I prefer Xenforo, as it has some really nice features.

There are forums that feature advertisement sections for forum conversion services to convert your forum to Xenforo.

You have to do your own research and be sure that whoever you select has a long history of delivering excellent conversion work. There are some unsavory folks offering conversion work, and you certainly do not want to use them.

I have ported one forum from SimpleMachines to Xenforo, and the result was seamless, with no data lost, and no problems since the change (I hired someone in Europe who had excellent references).

The advertisements used here would probably require some customization to the standard Xenforo package.

A Xenforo license can be purchased fairly inexpensively, and that is required before you can get someone to start modifications.

I feel for those who run forums; they take criticism from every direction, and often get pushed into what seems like "no-win" situations.

I do feel that a good software upgrade would be well liked once people learned the changes, but I can say for sure that using a Xenforo forum is infinitely easier (in my opinion) than using this software, and I don't mean that in any way to be critical of this site, but rather just pointing out that software has changed very much for the better over the last few years.

Edit:

One example of a XenForo feature is that I can select and upload pehaps 30 photos at once (varies according to what you set up your site for), and place them on the page as either thumbnails, or full sized images, and I can intersperse text anywhere between the photos.  No albums are required unless you just want to create an album.  One has to be religious about downsizing photos to perhaps 100 k each, but this greatly streamlines the entire photo posting process, and I think woud encourage folks to post more photos in more threads.

 

 

Edited By PatJ on 13/11/2020 04:29:35

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Edited By PatJ on 13/11/2020 04:41:16

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Thanks Neil for your considered response above. Could I just reiterate my own WIBNI? (wouldn't it be nice if…)

The ability to upload other file types, and have a page for files.

I know that one can send files in other ways, but the nice thing about this is that this site could build up a library of ME related documents that members could browse without having to first find specific threads and contact the authors to ask for links or files. A good example of a site where this is possible is this:

**LINK**

(you may have to register to see this page, but it's free). So for example I created a folder there with (so far) just a couple of files related to my software-controlled version of the Synchronome.

Another example is the Quorn-Owners group – an amazing repository of useful information and discussion of the Quorn of direct interest to members here.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 12/11/2020 21:42:16:

 

Personally I hope any changes can make the archives more easily and consistently accessible, and we can streamline and simplify the subscription renewal process, apart from the much requested changes:

Although part of the overall website these don't actually have anything to do with the "forum" if you exclude threads relating to problems with them.

But if you are including other aspects of the site then the age old problem of the way a response to a classified can loose the senders e-mail needs to go on the list.

John's Library for files is also more of a website item and not so much forum related unless you just had a topic where files could be posted. Then you need to find a way to make it searchable and hope all those uploading give the item a meaningful title as there is no capacity for a librarian. There is a similar section on MEM for posting drawings but it gets posts with those looking for a source of drawings, querying something on a drawing , etc so you end up with a lot to search through.

Then there is also a file size limit on MEM which can be a pain for various files even for photos, I'm happier to upload 30 photos straight from my phone or camera than have to go through and resize 30 before uploading as a batch. 

All these uploaded files and I think even Video was mentioned obviously take up storage with will also need funding.

Edited By JasonB on 13/11/2020 07:58:15

[Paul LParticipant @paull58212]

Posted by Lee Jones 6 on 12/11/2020 18:57:11:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 12/11/2020 18:25:55

Event tracking for directed ads. Installed, monitored and managed by MTM.

It doesn't have a great deal to do with Facebook per say; MTM subscribe (and probably pay to use) this service.

It allows them (Facebook) to track every move you make on this site, every link you click on and every sponsors advert you click and when you get to the sponsors site (if they also have the facebook icon) every move you make there also. ad infinitum.

There are ways to prevent / minimise this, but for the majority of users this is the case.

[Frances IoMParticipant @francesiom58905]

If you transpose this to the equivalent of surveilling a person so that every place they visit + everyone they speak to is noted then you gain some view of the surveillance society built up by Facebook + Google – exactly the same techniques that are used in China

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember12892]

[This posting has been removed]

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

" I'm happier to upload 30 photos straight from my phone or camera than have to go through and resize 30 before uploading as a batch. "

Heaven help us if that's adopted. The thought of so many photos at different orientations . The thought of 30 photos being repeated to reply to a post??????? and sorry Neil, the format of this forum has limped on for eleven years, one size fits all for MTM, the attitude being lump it or lump it. A reasonable search function would reveal MOST of the problems discussed are echoes.

Regards Ian.

Edited By Circlip on 13/11/2020 10:29:21

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Circlip on 13/11/2020 10:25:52:

" I'm happier to upload 30 photos straight from my phone or camera than have to go through and resize 30 before uploading as a batch. "

Heaven help us if that's adopted. The thought of so many photos at different orientations . The thought of 30 photos being repeated to reply to a post???????

Don't know what you mean about orientation, have you ever seen any of my 2000 odd images hosted here up the wrong way and the majority of photos have come straight off the phone or camera.

That should actually have read happy to upload 30 in batches of 5 from straight a device.

[Rod RenshawParticipant @rodrenshaw28584]

Thanks for putting things in context Neil.

I find I don't really mind MTM keeping tabs on us because, as far as I know, MTM are just a commercial company trying to sell magazines. If they use what information they gather to inform their advertising decisions and maximise their sales that seems innocent enough as far as individual forum users are concerned. My newsagent tells me that many magazines are ceasing publication altogether in these difficult times, so perhaps we should be grateful for ME and MEW's continuing publication.

But Facebook… Who knows what they do?

Rod

[michael howarth 1Participant @michaelhowarth1]

The greatest strength of this forum is that its members give freely and generously of their expertise and experience to anyone who asks for it. I hate to think how much this expertise would cost in the commercial world even if it were possible to put a valuation on it. I would hate to see changes that would jeopardise this philanthropic relationship.

Mick

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 12/11/2020 21:04:12:

" The Facebook pixel is a snippet of JavaScript code that loads a small library of functions you can use to track Facebook ad-driven visitor activity on your website. "

Basically it allows MTM to track if people come to the website as a result of ads on Facebook i.e. to see if Facebook advertising is worth doing.

Neil

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For general info.

I’be just found this which expands a little, in reasonably plain English, on Neil’s brief description : **LINK**

How to Set Up Meta Pixel (Formerly Facebook Pixel)

MichaelG.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

I followed that Hootsuite link.

It describes whom it is for and what it does: retailers wanting to develop their tracking and directed-advertising campaigns), how to install it, and even includes a screen-shot of the "snippet of Java code".

I am not accusing MTM of underhand methods, but that reactive sales-surveying would appear to be just one and by no means the primary aim of Hootsuite.

I found its blurb chilling. Apart from a brief warning that certain fields such its medicine and financial services examples are heavily protected by privacy and security legislation, the entire site shows it and the few American conglomerates who have taken over the Internet have nothing but contempt for personal privacy and security.

If one thing could be done to this site, it would be to ensure that whilst its, and the magazines', advertisers who pay for publishing space may analyse how readers learn of them, no details of those readers can be harvested via the site.

Frances IoM draws parallels between Facebook and Google, and the People's Republic of China. Well, the watchers' motives differ but there are simple precautions you can make to reduce the watching. Some simple ones I use:

– Turn off as many tracking "cookies" as possible – though I admit I do not know if the virtual "off" switch is genuine or a lie.

– Minimise on-line purchasing and other transactions.

– Minimise using Google, which anyway now hides behind a frustrating cookie-filter designed to make you give up and accept their intrusions .

– Do not use Facebook, Twitter & Instagram.

– Don't let your portable phone be a location-tracer; with one exception. So leave it switched off except when genuinely expecting or needing to make a call needing immediate response (such as a rendezvous when out shopping or attending an exhibition… let us hope on that one). In any case most of us are – in "normal" life – often in situations where the thing should be off anyway.

NB: THAT ONE exception – the obvious one, but inapplicable to my telephone, the NHS Covid tracing scheme.

I do not know if my 'phone could track me. It is a basic, 3G-rated instrument on which telephone calls are its primary, intended function! It is not connected to the Internet, but anyone following its locations last year would have been puzzled. For it was in S. Dorset, at random times on irregular dates, for most of the year, but for no discernible reason was in rural N.W. Yorkshire for no more than 10 minutes or so on each of two or three quite different dates of no clear significance! So no use to the ad agencies then…

+++

Going back to the topic though, it seems most of us are reasonably happy with this forum as it is, and do value it, but do encounter various points that could be improved.

The OP did not help his cause by perjoratively using "archaic" without considering its meaning or significance, or offering immediate, constructive suggestions. He also seemed later to have judged it by personal preferences in Internet use, perhaps more than by objective technical points; but hand on heart I suspect most of can be similarly influenced by taste and equipment available. Nevertheless, he did raise an important general point.

That is, that just as with mechanical engineering, web-sites can and should withstand occasional review and adjustments; but vitally, ones that keep the thing running and hopefully improve it, but with its contents and users' wishes paramount.

I mean genuine improvements, problems solved etc. Not mere displays of fancy IT clever-cloggery for no better and sometimes worse, service – leave that to Microsoft and Google!

[Lee Jones 6Participant @leejones6]

Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 13/11/2020 15:12:12:

The OP did not help his cause by perjoratively using "archaic" without considering its meaning or significance, or offering immediate, constructive suggestions. He also seemed later to have judged it by personal preferences in Internet use, perhaps more than by objective technical points; but hand on heart I suspect most of can be similarly influenced by taste and equipment available. Nevertheless, he did raise an important general point.

The OP knows precisely what "archaic" means:

And I stand by the fact that I (still) perceive the forum to be quite "old fashioned".

12 years is a lifetime in computing/internet technology.

What I didn't appreciate was how attached people had become, nor how personally people would take feedback.

I certainly didn't mean for anyone to be personally offended – and for that, I unreservedly apologise.

That does not mean I'm willing to concede that the site is flawless however. I stand by all of my previous points.

[PatJParticipant @patj87806]

I think it is important to remember in this thread that changing software would not change the content of this forum.

All the great material would still be here just like it is today.

What would be desirable would be to use any available software enhancements that could improve the experience here, and make the site easier to use and access.

It is a waste of time to argue the meaning of words.

Better to focus on possibilities for improving the site, and making it better, using things we can all agree on.

United we stand as they say.

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

"Don't know what you mean about orientation"

Yes Jason, you may be clever enough to get ALL your pikkies the right way up, but some can't easily achieve this with ONE. and the endless repeating of full posts don't arf cripple the band width. Pointed this out within the last couple of years by repeating the same thing on one posting, the following poster didn't appreciate my Sinicism by repeating ALL the clag. # Post numbers, far less boring than having to scroll through repeats. Have the same problem with TV at the moment.

Regards Ian.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

The forum consists of two things – the text we put into posts and then the forum software that presents it in a particular way with pretty toppings.

A number of people have pointed out that they are software experts. Would it be possible for them to write a program that can be run on a our computers that takes the data as it comes into a page currently but presents it in a different format that pleases the critics? This is just for presentation for those that want it, the same existig forum program remains back at base.

[Frances IoMParticipant @francesiom58905]

the photo problem could be avoid by requiring all photos to be placed in a photo album, the move to the album could easily add a function (eg as used in imagemagic in Linux) to restrict maximum dimension together with an additional button to rotate the image in the album – this way what you see is what others will get and also there is a good chance that photos will remain whereas other approaches on embedding stuff from elsewhere can see images disappear.

Personally I still use a browser that allows me to turn off images which is great as I can turn them back on for the threads that attract my attention but then I am old and was brought up to read books rather than comics.

Edited By Frances IoM on 13/11/2020 19:11:32

Edited By Frances IoM on 13/11/2020 19:12:47

[Morse HomologyParticipant @morsehomology91685]

As an actual Silly Con valley guy: all respect to Ubuntu engineers whose hard work keeps all my hardware ticking over, but beware software engineers suggesting improvements.

Oft times such folks (myself among them), with the best of intentions, look at software and think "oh I could do better," or "I could fix X thusly." Sometimes it's true. More often though, they do not understand what the existing software gets right, and the end result is worse. As a trivial example: I agree with someone above that Xenforo is very cool forum software; slick, nice UI, uploads images/PDFs with ease, nice to administer as well. However, the search feature is absolute trash. That would ruin the utility of the stored wisdom of this forum.

The human generated comment here is the valuable thing. It would be nice to have a few more fiddly little features if they can be added easily. But if this thing runs exactly the same software in 50 years in some futuristic virtual machine in a positronic brain, with 50 years more content, it's a huge win, even if you have to log in again when you use your ipotato, and the file uploader still isn't spot-on.

Probably in some timespan on a 50 year scale, the appearance and functionality of model-engineer will be seem as charming early 00's ambiance that punters will pay extra for, to remind them of when the internet was still cool and new.

Anyway, happy to help if there's something needs fiddling with. But I think you have it nailed; don't mess with it too much!

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