Plans for updating the archaic forum?

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Generally, I like the way this forum looks.

To some extent I think many of us are misunderstanding Lee. I think in his way he is trying to suggest improvements in functionality in certain areas. Many of us have experienced one thing or other in functionality which we have found irritating at times. Even the moderators would like to see some improvement in places.

However, the bespoke platform on which this forum is built on limits what the developer can do to make improvements. Off the top of my head, the platform on which this site is built is about 15 years old. Things have changed/improved heavily since then.

One can migrate onto a new platform with new software, and the layout can be similar to existing site. Small additions for improvement in functionality can be made so that the existing users can feel comfortable.

It is easy for us to say – if you build it, they will stay and more will come. But the risk – financial cost/investment? is MTMs. Regardless, as explained earlier, there is likely to be short term pain.

Browsers and search engines keep developing. For how long the platform can function in its current state is difficult to say. In many ways, this forum is about promoting the hobby of engineering. In years to come, how easy or difficult will it be for new people to find and join this forum if it remains in its current state? and will they be interested enough to stay and use the forum as it stands?

At the same time, is it worth MTMs time and money to do anything? Questions which only they can answer.

Ketan at ARC

… John Haine commented similar before my post up. Thanks John

Edited By Ketan Swali on 11/11/2020 22:36:21

Edited By Ketan Swali on 11/11/2020 22:38:39

[VicParticipant @vic]

Posted by Lee Jones 6 on 10/11/2020 21:18:52:

Has anyone spoken about replacing the forum software recently?

Honestly, without exaggeration, it's the worst platform I've worked with.

I assume there are historical/legacy reasons why it's still being used, but still – time for an upgrade?

<feeling>frustrated</feeling>

In spite of some on here who think it’s absolutely perfect there have been many complaints in the past but I think those users probably just moved on. The software does seem old and quirky. The owners of the site won’t change it though because they’re happy with the way the advertising works on it – at least that’s the impression I got. Some of the earlier replies you got Lee are quite hilarious. One thing I do like though is the “Ignore Member” feature, it’s saved me a lot of wasted time.

[michael howarth 1Participant @michaelhowarth1]

Almost every time that an "improved" website is introduced it is anything but an improvement. More flashy , trendy colours maybe, anything but intuitive and a complete relearning experience with loads of "*****£$%^&*aaghs" as I fall for the quirky bits and do it wrong yet again. No give me "old and quirky" every time over the equally or more aggravating "new and quirky".

Mick

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

While many people will leave a site because "the forum software is rubbish", Yahoo being a spectacular example of this modern management hubris, almost nobody joins a site because "the forum software is fabulous"

Since ME is in the top echelon of web sites in the world for its subject matter, partly because it's relatively user friendly and partly because of the management style, any major change has a small probability of increasing its user base… and a much larger probability of reducing its user base

[Maurice TaylorParticipant @mauricetaylor82093]

Hi Lee Jones, Thank you for replying to my question yesterday.

Maurice

[Lee Jones 6Participant @leejones6]

Posted by Maurice Taylor on 12/11/2020 08:23:25:

Hi Lee Jones, Thank you for replying to my question yesterday.

Maurice

You are more than welcome.

[Pete WhiteParticipant @petewhite15172]

Well just to say it works well enough for me, there are two many things that are constantly changing these days. Cannot say more that has not already been said I think.

Can we have a Facebook page? …..only joking I don't go there lol

Pete

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Pete White on 12/11/2020 09:08:07:

.

Can we have a Facebook page? …..only joking I don't go there lol

Pete

.

You only need to look through the first 50 lines of HTML for the homepage to see that Facebook has us

I can’t decipher the Facebook Pixel Code scripting, but I’m aware of its presence.

MichaelG.

.

[michael howarth 1Participant @michaelhowarth1]

Just got back from the shops where I was charged or rather asked for £186 for 3 loaves of bread. Why? New software.

Mick

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Now here's the problem.

As a hobby, Model Engineering favours older folk because they have the time to enjoy it. Likely a majority of members have a small-c conservative outlook, characterised by resistance to change. All change! Not just websites, but the metric system, CAD/CAM, Smart Phones, online commerce, modern manufacturing methods, Uber, raves, climate change, globalisation, and the whole service economy.

We dislike change because older and wiser folk rely heavily on experience, which is undermined by innovation. Old dogs don't learn new tricks.

As old dogs don't last forever what's the future of the hobby? It has to attract new members. That won't happen if the hobby bogs down with a 1970 mindset or persists too long with retro forum software!

Basic workshop practice hasn't changed mucg for a century or more. Computers and software are exactly the opposite: rapid change, and the constant threat of obsolescence. Decision making is difficult and risky, it's much faster and complicated than the relatively straightforward world of 50 years ago. The logic that says 'buy the best quality tool you can afford and it will see you out', is bad to the bone inappropriate to computing.

Poor old MyTimeMedia. Customers who dislike change have to be kept happy whilst at the same time attracting internet savvy newcomers who are all too aware of the forum's shortcomings. If the need to upgrade is ignored for too long, their website goes the way of the telegram. Articles about Myford lathe accessories won't feed the children when all the customers are into quadcopters.

On a bus in 1970, I overheard a pensioner moaning about the imminent introduction of decimal currency. He said 'they should wait until all the old people are dead'.

Dave

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi SOD, yes what you say is quite correct, but if the system software gets too far advanced too quickly, then many of the not so computer savvy older experienced people may stop using the forum and much knowledge may not be available to younger people. As my mother always used to say, progress is a double edged sword, or if you like, it can cut both ways. We need to remember this is a hobby forum when all is said and done.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 12/11/2020 10:53:02

[Andrew TinsleyParticipant @andrewtinsley63637]

Hello Dave,

I am somewhat offended by your claim that us oldies don't like change! I have always embraced change, where the benefits are seen to be good. I detest change for changes sake, unfortunately a lot of modern "change" actually gives little or no benefit and sometimes it is retrograde.

Take CAD for example. It will take me some considerable time to learn a particular programme, At my advanced age, I would rather get on with making things and use a drawing board. Am I against CAD, not at all and it is obvious that for younger people it is the way to go.

Is the forum software perfect, certainly not, it has its foibles. Is it worth updating? From my point of view there is little to be gained and an unknown downside. If it isn't broken………………….

Who will foot the bill? One thing is for certain, it won't be Lee Jones.

Andrew.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

What Andrew Tinsley said at 11.08.

"…where the benefits are seen to be good." In my book that means by most users, not just those with a particular technical bee in their bonnet.

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

Dave/SOD,

Not sure that I agree with you. I would suggest that older people have learned the true value of modern equipment, and have learned the true value of having to update frequently. (To say nothing of the cost of scrapping perfectly good equipment just to support someone's bottom line.)

Why should we always be chasing the moon? Is there any need to be in 24/7 contact with the world? Why should we rely on programming ability to produce a solid cylinder when careful twiddling of two knobs along with co-ordination of hands and eyes can achieve a satisfactory result and give a person an inner glow of having done it all theirselves.

Change for changes sake is not necessarily in the best interests of humanity.

Peter G. Shaw

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Andrew Tinsley on 12/11/2020 11:08:00:

Hello Dave,

I am somewhat offended by your claim that us oldies don't like change!…

Andrew.

Apologies for that – no offence intended. I'm writing about how I feel, not throwing rocks at my contemporaries.

I hate change. I suggest there are 4 types.

1. Good change, well implemented.
2. Good change, badly implemented.
3. Bad change, well implemented.
4. Bad change, badly implemented.

As three out of four change scenarios are toxic I've become less tolerant. Not because I dislike new ideas, it's because I don't have the energy needed to tough out inconveniences.

Dave

[JAParticipant @ja]

Putting it simply: Old people like things as they were when they were middle aged.

That is why we will use, or at least look at, CADs, computer operated machine tools, 3D printing but will not really understand social media.

£186 for 3 loaves of bread – things must be desperate out there. Locked down I can only go as far as the garden and workshop, perhaps fortunately.

JA

Edited By JA on 12/11/2020 12:05:37

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Ian B. on 12/11/2020 14:02:30:

…

Due to the way digital computers actually work just remember that software "engineers" must necessarily have a logic mindset of a 4 year old. Simples a 2 state society.

….

This thread seems to be becoming a vehicle for insults.

I spent a lot of years specifying, testing and implementing software that assisted engineering production. Some of that time my job title included 'software engineer', and that was what it was – using what was available within a package, plus what could be economically added, to achieve a more useful and representative model of the customer's actual process: times, costs, capacity requirements and current status.

If you think that can be done with the mindset of a 4-year-old, then you're the one with the oversimplified view.

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember12892]

[This posting has been removed]

[Lee Jones 6Participant @leejones6]

It's good to see so many people being passionate about their platform of choice.

Probably best to keep to the facts though.

Keep the finger pointing, insults and jives regarding people's chosen professions in the fishing forums!

[Frances IoMParticipant @francesiom58905]

Mick B1 – I agree that insults are unhelpful – the catch I see with development of eg forum software is the conflicting demands – especially the unstated financial demands of the advertisers (as seem here recently + in the trackers added by MTM to support Facebook at the expense of user privacy) – software companies such as Microsoft have in past desired customer lockin (Apple are most successful in this) but companies such as Google with its own Android O/S and browser (Chromium ) are even more successful in exploiting lockin including exploiting its patronage eg to Open source software such that Firefox has lost quite a bit of its independence.

I’m quite happy with existing forum software – the use of a forum-based photo album allows some avoidance of the photobucket problem seen in many US based forums as the all essential photos have been lost.

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

The forum works well enough for me, I even manage posting pictures. The only thing that I would like to see is the little box "remember me" to be present when first logging on. I frequently move to other forums and later back to this one, and always have to log in a second time. The box is always present the second time and when ticked keeps me logged in all the time the browser is open. My browser is set to forget all passwords when shut down, which is as I like it for security reasons.

No update will ever please everyone, the Home Shop Machinist forum was updated and although it suited me, there were a lot of complaints at the time.

Edited By old mart on 12/11/2020 16:15:21

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Mick B1 on 12/11/2020 14:48:44:

Posted by Ian B. on 12/11/2020 14:02:30:

…

Due to the way digital computers actually work just remember that software "engineers" must necessarily have a logic mindset of a 4 year old. Simples a 2 state society.

….

… Some of that time my job title included 'software engineer', and that was what it was – using what was available … to achieve a more useful and representative model of the customer's actual process: times, costs, capacity requirements and current status.

…

I wonder if your experience matched mine. The hardest part of most projects was finding out what the customer's requirement really was. As opposed to a vague wish list. Above a certain project size, I found most customers have a superficial understanding of their own business. Big picture generalisations, no problem, but extraordinarily weak on detail. Pressed for precision they soon become defensive and non-committal. Instead of a crisp accurate description the developers get a requirement full of generalisations and agreements to agree. Too difficult for the Board so it's left to a junior programmer!

Sad but true that most of us can say what's wrong with software after it's been written but are completely unable to explain what's wanted in advance!

Maybe Neil should offer a prize for best Formal Requirement for a new website. Chaps who think it's easy may be shocked to discover software engineering is seriously difficult. Always a mistake to believe the other guy's job is easier than mine.

Dave

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 12/11/2020 16:15:58:

Sad but true that most of us can say what's wrong with software after it's been written but are completely unable to explain what's wanted in advance!

Maybe Neil should offer a prize for best Formal Requirement for a new website.

.

It would need to be a very big prize by MTM standards

[ Yes, I have earned a crust or two writing formal requirements and managing delivery ]

MichaelG.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 12/11/2020 16:15:58:

Posted by Mick B1 on 12/11/2020 14:48:44:

Posted by Ian B. on 12/11/2020 14:02:30:

…

Due to the way digital computers actually work just remember that software "engineers" must necessarily have a logic mindset of a 4 year old. Simples a 2 state society.

….

… Some of that time my job title included 'software engineer', and that was what it was – using what was available … to achieve a more useful and representative model of the customer's actual process: times, costs, capacity requirements and current status.

…

I wonder if your experience matched mine. The hardest part of most projects was finding out what the customer's requirement really was. As opposed to a vague wish list. Above a certain project size, I found most customers have a superficial understanding of their own business.

…

Dave

 

It depended on the customer. Certainly there were some like that, usually because they didn't have a clear idea of the direction they ought to take their system in to improve their business, and that usually came from a top management that was either lazy or had been forced by circumstance to change their system when they'd been happy the way it was.

The best customer relationships seemed to start with a modest requirement that was then developed through a series of iterations. By the time any extensive and expensive work started, both sides understood each other well. I imagine that situation applies in many other fields than IT – I've certainly seen it in tooling development too.

Edited By Mick B1 on 12/11/2020 17:57:24

[Rod RenshawParticipant @rodrenshaw28584]

I don't feel equipped or qualified to comment on any perceived need to change the forum, which seems to me to work well enough, and to be used mostly by reasonable and polite people who share information and give and take comment and advice in a mostly adult and constructive manner.

What does disturb me about this thread is the mention of Facebook which I have always avoided because of my perception that it is unsafe and timewasting, and that it so easily leads to divisive, personal and hostile arguments, and of which US politics is an egregious example. Is Facebook really looking over our shoulders and can anything be done to prevent this?

Rod

[Author]

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