Plans for updating the archaic forum?

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

I think from many of the comments so far, we users are very much at the mercy of a few giant software companies whose one thought is making more money than their rivals, and hoping we do not know the differences between update and upgrade, and improvement.

Respectively, making new versions, taking advantage of technical developments and trying to keep ahead of criminals; and enhancing the programmes' quality.

I once complimented my bank on its simple, clear database displays; when examining my accounts. My employer of the time had created ever more frustratingly complicated and awkward Intranet forms and processes based on MS Word, Access & Excel without thinking of the purpose or user. The cashier told me that once the software had been written and tested technically, it was distributed for branch staff to try out, and to suggest genuine improvements, before full incorporation into the bank's system. I suspect companies like MS test their software technically – and not always successfully – but never for use.

It's also clear from the above that in order to obtain decent, reliable performance from your computer you need a far greater knowledge of computing, operating-systems etc. than should be necessary. I use a landline and portable telephones but I don't need know how they work to make a phone call, only how to use them!

It also of course also depends heavily on your personal needs, wishes, choice of equipment and style of Internet use. Some use "smart"-'phones only, others use them in conjunction with a computer; others, including me, use only a PC and have a portable but not necessarily "smart, 'phone.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Possibly the problems are more with users than the forum software.
I think we could do with an entry exam for new members. Topics such as what a search engine does and how to use google. How to read a book even. Why the purpose of the forum is more than just giveing them access to an advert in the 'for sale' section. How to open a second tab in their browser to look at other content while in the middle of writing a post. How to edit the 20Mb file from their camera to show just the nut an bolt that is the item they are talking about. Not quoting an entire long post with pictures when ten seconds of editing will highlight the relevant half line.

[Frances IoMParticipant @francesiom58905]

Bazle – I suspect many of the user problems are due to the limitations of a touch screen + small display screen – a click on a link now requires a thumb sized image on screen – added to this are the need for spying on user actions

[colin hawesParticipant @colinhawes85982]

I am quite happy with our lovely "archaic" forum. Colin

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Hi Lee,

I have read most of this thread.

You mentioned earlier: ' If the migration was done correctly, nothing would be lost.'

I believe that you later suggested making certain modifications to the existing be-spoke software. If this is possible, it could be a good thing, provided they are for the betterment of site functionality, and provided such modifications could be rolled out a bit at a time to enable existing users to get used to the changes.

Possible exception would/could be if the site software is changed and if the site is moved – migrated to a new software. If this were to be considered, in addition to users of the site having to get used to the new software, there is another issue to be considered. Neil Wyatt said earlier that this forum ranks consistently in the top two busiest hobby engineering forums worldwide. One of the ways it got there is due to its ability to be found on search engines – in particular Google.

For example, if you search a particular subject/topic on Google (which in my opinion is far better than the search facility on this site), the probability of a particular popular ME forum thread (url) coming up in organic search are very high. For better or worse, this 'reputation' for the topic and this site has been built up over time.

If MTM were to move over to a new software package and nothing would be lost as you say, there is a question about what would happen to the original urls/links to the original threads? Looking at the existing format of url on this forum suggests that probability of it changing to a new format are high.

If the urls change, the site would have to do a site wide 301 re-direct for all the old threads. This might be okay, but difficult to be sure about how Google Search will deal with or look at these re-directs in terms of 'site/link reputation'. The way Google algorithm works changes all the time. If Google Search looks at this favourably – that is well and good, but if it looks at it in a negative manner, than probability of finding a link to a discussion on this site reduce. In turn, this could effect world ranking. In turn this could affect how much an advertiser is interested in placing an advert on this site. Depending on how the new site performs globally, this could be a short term issue, but difficult to be sure.

On the flip side, per my understanding, the new formats of urls available for forums could be more search friendly. However, how long would it take for the googlebots to crawl though, understand the value/reputation of the site post changeover to NEW software to stay at the existing world ranking, or improve its ranking due to the introduction of the newer search friendly url format. I am sure that these are questions which MTM would also need to consider.

Ketan at ARC

[Lee Jones 6Participant @leejones6]

Quite right Ketan. I agree with all of your points. No infrastructure change should be taken lightly. All of your ( and other users'/sponsors' ) concerns would need to be researched and answered before going ahead with any significant changes to the site.

The internet is fluid however. Sites are free to pick and choose their software packages and do swap between competitors regularly. Google and other meta-collectors know this. The chances of a whole domain going from one of the most popular in the world in its category to an untraceable, bottom of the pile relic are slim to none.

Admittedly, sites usually migrate from known provider to known provider and there is transitioning software to help achieve the aim with as little effort as possible. As to how it would be possible to convert from a bespoke entity with an unknown, potentially undocumented database to another platform I have no idea. That would require careful consideration by the owners.

Edited By Lee Jones 6 on 11/11/2020 16:15:19

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

… 1 – use the black camera icon, or if you want to open and search your albums, do this in a new tab.

2 – I guess you mean Edge the bundled browser in Win 10? This is now Chrome under the hood. You could try internet explorer mode for this website which bypasses some of Edge's 'cleverness' which breaks more than a few websites. Alternatively, I know Firefox displays the site without issues.

Neil

Thanks Neil; twigged #1… #2 will give that a look at, thanks again.

George.

[Dr. MC BlackParticipant @dr-mcblack73214]

I submit that one of the dangers of moving to a different platform would be that it will NOT work on every system that is currently used.

I am too old and stupid to learn how to use upgraded software – even if it will work on my computer.

And my pitifully inadequate pension will NOT allow me to purchase a new one.

So, it may be a selfish attitude – but leave it as it is.

MC

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Mike Poole on 11/11/2020 12:59:55:

I am all for progress but it is very irritating when something is stopped from working by an upgrade. …

Mike

Or stopped by not upgrading! Like the poor old Great Western Railway having to replace their lovely broad-gauge track just because it was incompatible with everyone else:

Change is inevitable – it's an imperfect world.

Dave

[Gordon BullardParticipant @gordonbullard35804]

If it’s not broken don’t fix it

and it’s not broken

enough said

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember12892]

[This posting has been removed]

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Lee Jones 6 on 11/11/2020 16:15:01:

Quite right Ketan. I agree with all of your points. No infrastructure change should be taken lightly. All of your ( and other users'/sponsors' ) concerns would need to be researched and answered before going ahead with any significant changes to the site.

The internet is fluid however. Sites are free to pick and choose their software packages and do swap between competitors regularly. Google and other meta-collectors know this. The chances of a whole domain going from one of the most popular in the world in its category to an untraceable, bottom of the pile relic are slim to none.

Admittedly, sites usually migrate from known provider to known provider and there is transitioning software to help achieve the aim with as little effort as possible. As to how it would be possible to convert from a bespoke entity with an unknown, potentially undocumented database to another platform I have no idea. That would require careful consideration by the owners.

Edited By Lee Jones 6 on 11/11/2020 16:15:19

Lee,

This is an observation rather than being disrespectful in any way.

Okay, so I understand Google and other meta-collectors know that sites move from using one software package to another. Also moving from bespoke to something which  is also known to Google and other meta-collectors.

Regardless of how one changes from one software to another, the process of migration is painful. Software providers always present a rosy picture without really dealing with consequences, as, with the best will in the world, they do not have a crystal ball.

Here is an example which shows how changing the software could potentially effect this forum.:

During most of 2019, homeshopmachist.net led the global rank for similar forums at around 122,000 (smaller the number, the better it is). Over the months which followed, its ranking started to fall due to various reasons – partly related to Google algorithms, and partly related to the way that forum was structured. By November last year, the world ranking had dropped to around 470,000, and this forum took over the first spot at around 460,000.

Homeshopmachinist ranking kept falling. Earlier this year, don't know exactly when (someone here might know), changed their forum software. By early March this year, their global position had dropped to around 900,000 and stayed there until around early September. From there on, it started to improve. Today its global position is at around 800,000, taking the top position, with this forum being in second place at around 970,000. This overall change is more to do with how Googlebot sees these sites. The flat period from March to September for Homeshopmachinist is a long period of pain, but the better format of urls helps to find subjects on their sites more easily after the googlebot has crawled it. This is a technical factor, but it seems that the googbots maybe moving very slowly.

I used the 'better user friendly url' thought process to search for problems relating to introduction of new software, and came up with this thread: link

When you click on the link, you will see various good, and bad responses to the change over to the new software.

I do not have a view one way or another. It is true that for the long term survival of this forum, changes will need to be considered, especially as currently most similar sites world ranking are on a downward trend . All I am presenting is an example of potentially what is in store for MTM, if and when they change software.

Ketan at ARC.

 

Edited By Ketan Swali on 11/11/2020 17:40:47

Edited By Ketan Swali on 11/11/2020 17:42:58

[Lee Jones 6Participant @leejones6]

No disrespect felt. Your points are all considered and well communicated, as always.

It does sound like change is on the cards. Even though people are fearful, change is inevitable.

Hopefully MTM do their due diligence and all it goes smoothly.

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

Moving to another software is a can of worms. In my experience the rights granted to users, members, logged in members, moderators etc vary between systems and to make a copy of the present system would probably mean users have to be manually given rights if it is to remain similar to what we have today. This is a major can of worms, and contributed to a site I was involved with closing.

We have already seen in the forums posts regarding the closure of Yahoo Groups and the migration to other platforms. At least two of the Yahoo groups I was using have become facebook and I know this cost them both users.

Basically MTM as publishers of magazines have given us this as a 'free gift' that is supported by advertising revenue and the goodwill of moderators. If staying as we are means some users complain it costs nothing, but if there are many more complaints, even in the short term,  because things have changed will that be an extra issue that the print publishers might not want to embrace?

I am not suggesting that more modern software would not be an improvement, of course it would. But if you are asking if more modern software and the hassle to us as users and what I would expect it could be to MTM – well then I am a lot less keen to go down that road.

It works.

It is unwieldy, but not broken.

Does it really need fixing?

Edited By Nick Clarke 3 on 11/11/2020 18:36:44

Edited By Nick Clarke 3 on 11/11/2020 18:40:32

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by John Haine on 11/11/2020 10:33:47:

[…]

without that I have to send by email either the files or a link to a cloud server. […]

.

Can I take that as a simple rejection of the idea of posting a ‘share’ link to your Dropbox, John ?

MichaelG.

[ happy to accept rejection … just checking ]

.

[Joe McKeanParticipant @joemckean81940]

This luddite likes things the way they are, if anyone feels differently why not leave and set up a high-tech wiz bang website for all those interested

Edited By Joe McKean on 11/11/2020 18:55:02

[Maurice TaylorParticipant @mauricetaylor82093]

Can anybody explain in non technical terms what is wrong with the forum ? I’ve used it for a few years and can’t see anything wrong. I use an Ipad mini and have had no problems reading the forum on it,other than my photos being upside down when put on ,that’s sorted now.

How can people complain when it is free. Change and upgrade for the sake of it is pointless.

Maurice

Edited By Maurice Taylor on 11/11/2020 18:58:00

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 11/11/2020 18:51:47:

Posted by John Haine on 11/11/2020 10:33:47:

[…]

without that I have to send by email either the files or a link to a cloud server. […]

.

Can I take that as a simple rejection of the idea of posting a ‘share’ link to your Dropbox, John ?

MichaelG.

[ happy to accept rejection … just checking ]

.

That certainly works to send files to a specific person, but better to be able to post files here – for example, pdfs of interesting documents responding to questions of wide interest; g-code or other software that people might find useful.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

It works here, I have used it on some of the engine builds where I post the dropbox link to drawings in pdf format example or a step file of the same for anyone with CNC to run through their own CAM package.

It's really no different to hosting your images elsewhere such as Photobucket and using teh links to add your photos to a post.

Edited By JasonB on 11/11/2020 20:17:15

[Lee Jones 6Participant @leejones6]

Posted by Maurice Taylor on 11/11/2020 18:55:49:

Can anybody explain in non technical terms what is wrong with the forum ? I’ve used it for a few years and can’t see anything wrong. I use an Ipad mini and have had no problems reading the forum on it,other than my photos being upside down when put on ,that’s sorted now.

If the forum in its current guise doesn't cause you any angst or frustration, that's great, truly.

It sounds like that rings true for a lot of users who have simple [read, reply, move on] use-cases.

However, for completeness, the frustrations I have experienced since using the platform (in plain English) are:

• Reply box overrides browser defaults
  • This affects the way in which the spell checking facility operates
• Built-in spell-checker is non-standard and not at all user friendly
• No multi-quote support
  • You are limited to quote only one person at a time
• Quotes can not be split up
  • It's sometimes better to reply per-paragraph rather than a as a singleton block
• Pressing quote at any point erases what you have in the reply box
  • You cannot 'undo' this either, so you lose all your work, requiring a full re-type
• No way to link to a specific post
  • Most forums allow you to reference by post #
• Limited to upload 5 photos at a time (if it doesn't timeout on you!)
  • Worse, you can only select a single image to upload at a time which can be laborious
• No ability for simple image editing
  • At least crop and rotate should be available
• You can only login on one device at a time
  • A valid use-case is to flit between a mobile device (phone/tablet) and a computer
• Limited to JPEG only uploads
  • Many suggest more formats would be helpful; PDF, DXF, video, etc
• Emojis (smiley faces) pop-up in posts when not expected nor requested

Again, there are more than likely other niggles people experience, but you get the idea.

[DanielParticipant @daniel]

I also feel the need to add;

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Yes, it's not the most flamboyant glittering software out there, but it does work in so far as we need it to.

Change for the sake of change is what has brought our world to what it has become.

BE VERY AWARE

ATB,

Daniel

Edited By Daniel on 11/11/2020 20:29:02

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by JasonB on 11/11/2020 20:16:33:

It works here, I have used it on some of the engine builds where I post the dropbox link to drawings in pdf format example or a step file of the same for anyone with CNC to run through their own CAM package.

It's really no different to hosting your images elsewhere such as Photobucket and using teh links to add your photos to a post.

.

Thanks for the confirmation, Jason

I’ve posted ‘public’ links on the microscopy forum without any problem, but never tried it here.

MichaelG.

[DalboyParticipant @dalboy]

I for one is happy with the format it works for me my answer is if I don't like the format then I move on

Edited By Derek Lane on 11/11/2020 21:54:05

Edited By Derek Lane on 11/11/2020 21:59:21

[Lee Jones 6Participant @leejones6]

Posted by Derek Lane on 11/11/2020 21:51:15:

I for one is happy with the format it works for me my answer is if I don't like the format then I move on

Yes, why would anyone attempt to; help, suggest and improve?

Just like it, lump it or do one!

What a terrible attitude!

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

If you look through Lee's list he isn't suggesting a wholesale change, just fixing some aspects of the functionality that are deficient or non-standard. What's wrong with that?

[Author]

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