Plans for updating the archaic forum?

[JAParticipant @ja]

Peter and Neil

Many thanks. I will await the results with interest (and try not to carp or have a rant).

JA

[Gray62Participant @gray62]

Before the new site is made 'live', will there be an opportunity for a selected group of members to view and beta test the site?

It's one thing for the developers to 'visualise what was asked for' it is quite another for the end user.

Having worked both sides of the desk, as a developer, QA and customer PM, I see it an essential phase in the development of any piece of software.

Gray

[Stuart Smith 5Participant @stuartsmith5]

Neil

If you need to change to more modern software , can you not make the front end that the user sees the same as it is now? Or as near as possible . I have looked at the model flying site example you showed. The model engineer forum had about 230 words in the screenshot you showed and about 80 in the equivalent model flying screen.

This reminds about when I was at work and the developers and promoters of new/ replacement software refused to listen to the users.

It may be true that some users are not happy that some advanced functions are not available on the existing forum, but I suspect most users like it as it is.

Stuart

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Can I suggest anyone looking at Neil's screen shots from yesterday now visits the RCM&E site as the layout has changed again, Avitars are now at the side of the post much like they are here and not at the top which does help reduce the amount of white space.

Edited By JasonB on 16/02/2021 17:25:45

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

Not being an expert on forums but is this classed as an archaic forum? Or is it going to be change for changes sake.

No many people like change but that's life nothing ever stays the same…

Regards to all

Derek

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

The trouble is that we old dogs are very slow, or unwilling to / incapable of, learning new tricks.

So wait for the howls of protest when the button pressed doesn't do what the previous one in that location did!

Howard

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Nick Clarke 3 on 16/02/2021 11:12:26:

MichaelG's comment that this site is easier on the eye and John's about being easy to read quoted by Emmgee are not quite the same thing. Human vision depends upon contrast and so it is easier to distinguish items where there is high contrast – on a computer screen black on white or black on yellow are effective. However neither of these are particularly restful on the eyes as a high luminance (bright) colour scheme can be tiring to use.

The answer is to maintain the contrast while lowering the brightness to an acceptable level. Unfortunately this is sometimes difficult to do as many LCD screens and laptops in particular control the brightness and contrast by adjusting the backlight rather than the image displayed, even though there may be controls labelled brightness and contrast.

The current colour scheme attempts to address the issue of tiredness by reducing the brilliance of the background by changing its colour. This seems an effective and easy way forward until declining contrast sensitivity of the viewer becomes an issue due to age or visual conditions.

If you find the brightness of a site with black print on a white background difficult reduce the brightness rather than changing the background colour to grey which simultaneously reduces the contrast. On modern push button LCD monitors this can be a confusing wander through a number of menus but may need to be done as all of the LCD monitors I have come across seem to be set at 50% brilliance and 50% contrast out of the box and this is rarely the optimum once contrast sensitivity begins to decline after the age of 20 or so depending upon eye health.

Vision and text is a complicated compound of different, sometimes contradicting issues and usually one aims only for the best compromise. Two examples – a 'thin' or 'lightweight' font like the one this site uses is harder to see, but the counters or 'holes' in letters like O B and D are easier to distinguish and c & e are easier to tell apart. So Bold is more difficult, but then so is the lightweight normal! Also making print larger may make it easier to see but less is taken in at a single glance so reading, and making sense of what has been read can become slower.

The most important single piece of advice must be to take breaks from the screen. While outside the workplace the Display Screen Regulations are not policed, it is important to remember that they still offer excellent advice if you are using computers for extended times in the home.

Nick

Lead Teacher of ICT to Blind and Visually Impaired Students

Qualified Teacher of the Visually impaired

.

Very interesting notes, Nick … Thanks

I would, however, like to just point out that the pale grey background here does more than just reduce the contrast … it also allows the use of white separators, which in this context are subtle but effective [at least for the visually unimpaired] … and yes, I have the sensitivity and experience to realise that the forum should be catering for all its users, not just one extreme or the other.

My own preference for the very pale grey ‘paper’ may, in part, be due to the dramatic changes that occurred after my yellowed and cataract-ridden natural lenses were replaced !

No single arrangement can suit every user, and all I have done so far is express my personal preference.

… It would be nice to think that options will be available.

MichaelG.
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[for what it’s worth: I have BSc Ergonomics with Human Biology, and a daughter whose partner is visually impaired]

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 16/02/2021 17:54:55:
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[for what it’s worth: I have BSc Ergonomics with Human Biology, and a daughter whose partner is visually impaired]

The only reason I added my qualification and current job role was to give some context to what might appear to be unsubstantiated opinions – it is not really what we are about normally however as a matter of interest I also have my cycling proficiency certificate somewhere – must put that on the office wall

As someone who has had cataracts treated I suspect you a very aware of the affect a loss of contrast can have on vision.

It is interesting that someone with low contrast sensitivity can perform well on a visual acuity test, such as the well known eye test chart (Snellen) yet actually still not be able to see well!

Take care,

Nick

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

Purely out of interest if someone wished to compare the RCM&E site in Jason's link above with the MECH site at **LINK**

There are a lot of layout similarities once you are in a forum, but the colours could not be more different.

IMHO neither is incorrect, but I do need to set this monitor slightly differently to read each optimally.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

It would seem that much of the site appearance is customisable but not by the users so I am sure there will not be a setup that pleases everyone.

Mike

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Nick Clarke 3 on 16/02/2021 18:34:34:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 16/02/2021 17:54:55:
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[for what it’s worth: I have BSc Ergonomics with Human Biology, and a daughter whose partner is visually impaired]

The only reason I added my qualification and current job role was to give some context to what might appear to be unsubstantiated opinions – it is not really what we are about normally […]

.

I understood and appreciated that, Nick

… and my footnote was intended to show some overlap in our interests.

Now, if you will forgive me saying so [and this is admittedly a ‘politically’ difficult area] … I think the site needs to meet the requirements of all its users, and there is a [hopefully manageable] risk that by optimising it for the visually impaired, it could become difficult for the un-impaired to use.

I greatly admire what you are doing, but somehow this needs to work for the whole community.

Sincerely

MichaelG.

[Colin HeseltineParticipant @colinheseltine48622]

I have just looked at the link Jason has put up earlier on this page. Yes it is a little better, but I still feel there is way to much white space. All the sections looked at so far on there are fairly short comments with lots of white space. many of our postings are quite detailed and you can get a lot of "READ" on one page. l feel you seem to have to do a lot of scrolling around to read the same quantity of text. This would be a real pain on a small mobile device.

Colin

[Frances IoMParticipant @francesiom58905]

Nich
There used in early to mid 90s, to be a suite of tests, ‘Bobby’ tests if my memory serves that evaluated a web page against a set of criteria for suitability for readability etc given certain visual impairments – quite strict but at the time I think it was a Federal requirement for public facing pages – I know my initial web site failed on many until I fixed the pages – don’t think it can apply now as I doubt if any modern web page would pass except I think some of the Government pages

Edited By Frances IoM on 16/02/2021 20:52:27

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Posted by Colin Heseltine on 16/02/2021 20:06:42:

I have just looked at the link Jason has put up earlier on this page. Yes it is a little better, but I still feel there is way to much white space. All the sections looked at so far on there are fairly short comments with lots of white space. many of our postings are quite detailed and you can get a lot of "READ" on one page. l feel you seem to have to do a lot of scrolling around to read the same quantity of text. This would be a real pain on a small mobile device.

Colin

Hi, yes, still loads of brilliant white space, saying nothing and still small words where there are some.

Regards Nick.

[Gordon BullardParticipant @gordonbullard35804]

If it isn’t broke don’t fix it and this site isn’t broke

enough said

[Peter GreeneParticipant @petergreene36336]

One person who is affected and whom hasn't had a mention is the lady (can't think of her name sorry) who maintains the website. Old software can become very time-consuming to manage (while new software can take a lot of time/effort initially).

[Danny M2ZParticipant @dannym2z]

Oh dear, it appears that all PM's are lost in the change to the new software, so time to back them up now. Mail lost Given the photo album issues I just moved all my albums to more secure storage (my pc)

One bonus is that Adblock Plus get's rid of all the pesky ads between posts. Sponsors would be not amused .

If I wish to purchase something then I shall search for a vendor and not have ads forced on me, this is a definite turn off from pushy sales people.

The Barton site is ad free, it just relies on the members to top up the pot and it works surprisingly well Site Funds – Scroll down left column

* danny *

[BaldricParticipant @baldric]

I thought I would add my comments having looked at the flying site, and using other forums.

If it ain't broke don't fix it. If I use a mobile phone to look at this site I have to rotate the phone & zoom in a lot, as I often have 10 minutes only that is how I view a lot of site, because this site is bad it means I don't visit very often. The new site seems to solve that issue.

The Modeleng proboards site has got all the features I have wanted, I can see a list of the topics that have new posts, I can click a button on that list to take me to the first new post & I can be logged in on multiple devices so don't have to login each time I visit. As I have not signed up to the flying forum I can not confirm it has all these features, but as it looks like a modern bit of software I assume it does.

Colours, I like the current colours, on the other model eng forum I am happy with the default colours, with a black background, but as a member I can go to my settings and have options, that is good for those that have different requirements.

Request for a test, isn't that why it has been applied to a single forum first, to gather feedback? I would suggest that if anyone wants to comment they should look at the flying forum and give it a try. I would assume there was some prior testing with a few people. As a software developer I am also aware that if you ask 4 people what they want you will probably get 5 opinions, so trying to please everyone will not be possible.

On the whole the changes look OK to me as far as I can see without signing in, so that means I will visit more often, so I guess that is a win for the advertisers who pay to keep the site running.

Baldric.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Given that many of the specific critical comments are about the site's functionality (i.e. things like the editor, spell checker, posting photos etc) rather than appearance, maybe the top level spec for the new site should be…

1. Maintain the look and feel because most people seem to like it
2. Fix specific features to make it easier to use and consistent with modern practice
3. Add some new features that people have suggested, provided there is enough support (by a poll).

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Folks, I am reading these comments and trying to keep up.

Work has started, and I will be able to view a trial version in 2 or 3 weeks, it seems.

I would guess the timescale for the change will be about a month.

Over this period I am moving home and workshop at last, so I will not be very active for a bit, and might be slow to respond to emails as well.

Hopefully I will have influence over the appearance, layout, colours etc. in which case I will aim to keep the 'feel' of the forum as familiar as possible.

There will be a lot of new features, which should address virtually all of shortcomings raised in the past.

Some changes these might be a bit confusing at first, although it should be easier to learn your way around than this site is for a new user – because it will follow conventions used by other websites (e.g. three stacked lines for a menu icon on smaller displays, for example).

Perhaps one idea will be for me to do an 'online demo' when we get up and running.

Neil

[John PParticipant @johnp77052]

Hi

Have done a trial posting on the RCME new site , very easy to do photo went straight in don't know if it is in an album .Still prefer the layout of this forum as it is .

John

[PatJParticipant @patj87806]

I think the look and feel of this forum can be mimicked very closely; perhaps not exactly, but it should be close.

Beyond that it is a matter of creating a more functional site.

I never change things for the sake of changing them, and I am anti-change for the record, but I have used new forum software (Simple Machines and Xenforo), and there are some distinct advantages to both as far as usability.

Not to be critical, but rather just to point out a comparison, this site is like flint and stone, when you could just use a modern striking match.

Sure a flint and stone works fine, but there is real function to be gained with an update.

Its not like this forum will be updated every year; it may be many years before another update.

I would say there is a very real possibility that after using the new software for a year, if it was proposed to go back to the old software, there would be an equal amount of pushback, because people will have tried the new software, appreciated the improved functionality, and realized that yes, there is a much better way to do things.

There will be an expected initial knee-jerking reaction against the slightest perceived changes, and lots of moaning and groaning, but next year, I would predict that many would say "we were doing it the hard way".

I can speak from experience. I have had the same reaction to change; initially against it, and then realizing how much can be gained from it.  For the record, I hate change in general, and I hate software upgrades in particular, but I encourage this forum software to be updated.

Try it, you may like it far better than you think. I did, and I am a believer now.

As I said, I think visually things can be matched pretty well as far as color/layout/contrast, etc., and so if we can get over that hurdle, then perhaps we can focus on improved function, and there is much to be gained.

Just my 2 cents, but just saying don't panic. It may be much better than you imagined after you try it.

Don't give up on it after trying it for one day.

.

Edited By PatJ on 17/02/2021 18:50:40

[Danny M2ZParticipant @dannym2z]

In the immortal words of lance corporal Jones ' Don't Panic'

[JourneymanParticipant @journeyman]

So, Captain Mainwaring, have we a date yet for the glorious transformation?

John

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