PHEV’s

[VicParticipant @vic]

I must admit I’ve never thought it was a good idea to own a car that’s even more complex than a conventional petrol car. There’s just more to go wrong. Seeing this though really puts it into perspective. I didn’t realise they were that much more expensive – £11,000. Add in higher servicing costs and I’m not sure of the point? I have my own drive so I could take advantage of low mileage costs but I read some time ago that the majority of PHEV drivers don’t charge them very often if at all? Another point I read (mentioned in this article) is that most of them don’t achieve anywhere near the claimed mpg figures. I think I’ll keep my petrol car for now!

 

[Bo’sunParticipant @bosun58570]

Vic,

Keep your petrol car, you know it makes sense.

[JAParticipant @ja]

Vic

I am not surprised but it would be nice to know where the article came from.

JA

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

My current 9 year old Dacia Sandero Diesel has more than recovered it’s initial cost against the petrol version. Much more so since it qualifies for £0 pa road tax.

i would like my next vehicle to be a diesel PHEV, but the only ones available are double the price I’m interested in. A ‘mild’ hybrid wouldn’t get better economy and emissions that my current wheels so I’ll wait a bit more. For our normal weekly milage, I could charge a PHEV from my solar panels at an equivalent of £0.14/kWh, equivalent to about £0.05 per mile.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

A full BEV is, IMO, the next step (for most) after trying a hybrid.  Many fewer moving parts to go wrong, easily ‘fuelled-up” at night while you slumber, so could be fully charged most mornings.  Options to collect your own electrons with solar panels, or just take advantage of the cheapest electricity tariffs (as little as 7.5p/kWh).

Many hybrids were company purchases for tax reasons, so a lot were never plugged in regularly, if at all.

I am currently getting nearly 4 miles for each of those kWh. Mine cost me 8.5p and if fully charged the car can carry me over 250 miles (it’s not one of the most energy efficient models on the market).

Second hand EVs are now much closer to parity with vehicles with an ICE.

[JA]

On JA Said:

Vic

I am not surprised but it would be nice to know where the article came from.

JA

It was on the Car Magazine website.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

The article is somewhat flawed because it compares a full ICE car to a Plugin Hybrid. A full hybrid to PHEV would be more informative.
Then there is trim level. The price quoted in the article for the petrol appears to be be for the Design spec trim at £26,950 but the minimum PHEV trim is GS at £37,935. The petrol in GS is £29,865 So like for like difference is £8000 not £11,000.
The PHEV is automatic  so even closer would be the 1.2 96kW at £31,365 so only £6,570 cheaper than the PHEV. The auto has higher fuel consumption than the manual.
The PHEV is also more powerful at 110kW with a 1.6l ICE Since when is it fair to compare a 1.2l 130hp (PS) cars fuel consumption to a 1.6l 180hp model

Then of course they ignore the reason for getting a EV / PHEV – reduced emissions. Clearly if used as intended a PHEV will clearly produce fewer emissions than a similar ICE.

Robert.

(large PHEV owner for >3 years)

[JAParticipant @ja]

Vic

Thanks. It is decades since I have read any car magazines. It used to be Motor, Motor Sport and Autocar.

JA

 

[Robert Atkinson 2]

On Robert Atkinson 2 Said:

…

Then of course they ignore the reason for getting a EV / PHEV – reduced emissions. Clearly if used as intended a PHEV will clearly produce fewer emissions than a similar ICE.

If reducing emissions/carbon footprint is the object, you may be better off keeping the car you already have, thus avoiding the emissions/carbon footprint of manufacturing a new car.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

One of the current problems of imbalance of price and performance is the lack of small hybrids and electrics as things are still aimed at the affluent BMW driver. Where is the equivalent of the original Mini, Beetle, Fiesta? (admit I haven’t looked for them) Also all are aimed at urban driving of 5-10 miles to friends relatives and shops before needing to use the IC engine. The country dweller needs a 50 mile round trip to get to the main market town and hospital.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

I object to the advertising of hybrids as ‘the self charging electric car’ or ‘the electric car you don’t have to plug in’. More accurately they would be ‘the electric car you can’t charge from the mains, you have to burn expensive petrol’ (I know you can charge PHEVs)

All this range anxiety would be reduced if any charge point would charge any car, and without having to download some app, just use credit card like a petrol pump.

I’d extend that to car parks, if the machine won’t take cash or credit card don’t allow them.

[Bazyle]

On Bazyle Said:

One of the current problems of imbalance of price and performance is the lack of small hybrids and electrics as things are still aimed at the affluent BMW driver. Where is the equivalent of the original Mini, Beetle, Fiesta? (admit I haven’t looked for them) Also all are aimed at urban driving of 5-10 miles to friends relatives and shops before needing to use the IC engine. The country dweller needs a 50 mile round trip to get to the main market town and hospital.

Electric mini will do about 200miles per charge. Similar for Fiat 500

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Not technically a plug-in, but:

I have been driving around in a FIAT500 hybrid for the last few days

Can’t really say I like it, but the range and petrol-consumption seems fine.

MichaelG.

.

Ref. __ https://www.fiat.co.uk/models/fiat-500

[Bo’sun]

On Bo’sun Said:

Vic,

Keep your petrol car, you know it makes sense.

Or, engage brain and have a think about advantages and disadvantages!   Like any other form of transport, Hybrids are a mix of pros and cons.

Having to commute across a city taking a hard line on emissions control is a good reason for considering Hybrid! It’s because petrol and diesel cease to be the cheaper options once an administration applies ‘polluter pays’ principles.

Someone who does a lot of short-range journeys plus a few regular long trips will find running a hybrid cheaper than petrol.  As will anyone who does mixed cycle motoring – stop/start through towns followed by bursts of long-range cruising at sensible speeds.

Most UK domestic motoring needs could be met by pure electric cars.  Hybrids fill a useful gap.   Only a minority of UK motorists require long-range capability, and most of them are salesmen.

I am of course against caravans.  Badly driven rolling road-blocks who presumably travel in convoys just in case the locals decide to scrag them!

🙂

Dave

 

 

[JAParticipant @ja]

Because they are heavier, do electric cars do more damage to the roads? I am thinking about pot-holes.

JA

[JA]

On JA Said:

Because they are heavier, do electric cars do more damage to the roads? I am thinking about pot-holes.

JA

Just for fun, I looked up the road-weights of a Vauxhall Corsa e and a Corsa 1.2 petrol.    The petrol car is 6kg heavier than the electric…

Dave

[MikeKParticipant @mikek40713]

I suspect that meeting true sustainability, where we’re not having any significant environmental impact over any measurable time span, will require designing better cities where most people don’t have a car.  I own one, but rarely use it and when I really think about it I find it silly that so many of us own one of these machines.  And just moving to electric, or hybrid or whatever, cars likely won’t solve anything.  We already know that we will surpass the 1.5C global warming level and almost certainly will blow through 2C as well.

Mike

 

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

An interesting posting, from the driven-io ev news site, indicates Norway will be all EV sooner than most.  Here is an excerpt from it:

This July, full battery electric vehicles (BEVs) made up 91.9% of all newly registered vehicles, up from 81.7% in July 2023.

Hybrids and plug-in hybrids together made up another 4.8%, albeit down from 14% last year. PHEVs have lost considerable market share in Norway because, as reported by Cleantechnica, a registration tax exemption given for the additional weight of the electric drivetrain was removed in January 2024. PHEV sales have been declining ever since.

July was the lowest month I can recall for non-hybridised petrol car sales. Only 45 new vehicles were registered.

Those numbers are quite staggering, compared to the UK.  Maybe they have fewer EV haters making false claims (such as road wear, tyre wear, etc) than here in the UK.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

An interesting set of numbers ^^^

We shall probably never know, but I wonder how predictable the effects of that “market manipulation by Tax incentives” would have been ?

… it’s all too devious for me:

https://alternative-fuels-observatory.ec.europa.eu/transport-mode/road/norway/incentives-legislations

MichaelG.

.

Edit: __ Someone is working hard on the graphics at that ‘observatory’

https://alternative-fuels-observatory.ec.europa.eu/interactive-map

 

[not done it yet]

On not done it yet Said:

An interesting posting, from the driven-io ev news site, indicates Norway will be all EV sooner than most.  Here is an excerpt from it:

This July, full battery electric vehicles (BEVs) made up 91.9% of all newly registered vehicles, up from 81.7% in July 2023.

Hybrids and plug-in hybrids together made up another 4.8%, albeit down from 14% last year. PHEVs have lost considerable market share in Norway because, as reported by Cleantechnica, a registration tax exemption given for the additional weight of the electric drivetrain was removed in January 2024. PHEV sales have been declining ever since.

July was the lowest month I can recall for non-hybridised petrol car sales. Only 45 new vehicles were registered.

Those numbers are quite staggering, compared to the UK.  Maybe they have fewer EV haters making false claims (such as road wear, tyre wear, etc) than here in the UK.

Some countries seem more forward thinking than others. If the Norwegians want cleaner air and can afford to be early adopters of relatively expensive technology then it’s an obvious choice to buy a BEV? I believe much of their electricity is produced by Hydro but I don’t know if this results in cheaper bills. If it does then that’s another good reason.
What I find somewhat surprising is the number of people that say BEV’s don’t work very well in cold conditions, and here we are with the Norwegians and apparently the Swedes and Danes buying them in large quantities? They seem to be dealing quite well with any deficiencies.

Back to Hybrids. I saw this on the Kia website. One probably small disadvantage not mentioned is that they are also the most likely type of car to catch fire according to statistics from insurance companies.

[VicParticipant @vic]

[HOWARDTParticipant @howardt]

The future is some form of hire, where all the costs are paid on a monthly basis.  There are too few people able to afford the higher costs of buying and future ownership costs.  Alright costs may reduce with future technology advancements but it makes little sense to keep building more roads to carry one person per car a few miles to work or shopping.  We already have people working from home and shopping online so why have an expensive mode of transport for one person.  The future will have to be different.

[Vic]

On Vic Said:

I’d like an explanation of those numbers.

Is is really true that 1.5% of gasoline powered vehicles catch fire?   Or, though unlikely, do they mean natural gas IC rather than gasoline?

And what it is that makes hybrids twice as likely to burn as IC cars?  Can’t be the battery, because according to those figures electric cars are almost fireproof!

Late note.  Pleased to report my suspicions are justified:  see Car & Driver’s article “No, Millions of Cars Are Not Catching Fire Every Year“,   AutoInsuranceEZ isn’t an Insurance Company, nor do they understand statistics.

Internet carp strikes again!  Please be careful out there Vic.

Dave

 

[Vic]

On Vic Said:

On not done it yet Said:

An interesting posting, from the driven-io ev news site, indicates Norway will be all EV sooner than most.  Here is an excerpt from it:

This July, full battery electric vehicles (BEVs) made up 91.9% of all newly registered vehicles, up from 81.7% in July 2023.

Hybrids and plug-in hybrids together made up another 4.8%, albeit down from 14% last year. PHEVs have lost considerable market share in Norway because, as reported by Cleantechnica, a registration tax exemption given for the additional weight of the electric drivetrain was removed in January 2024. PHEV sales have been declining ever since.

July was the lowest month I can recall for non-hybridised petrol car sales. Only 45 new vehicles were registered.

Those numbers are quite staggering, compared to the UK.  Maybe they have fewer EV haters making false claims (such as road wear, tyre wear, etc) than here in the UK.

Some countries seem more forward thinking than others. If the Norwegians want cleaner air and can afford to be early adopters of relatively expensive technology then it’s an obvious choice to buy a BEV? I believe much of their electricity is produced by Hydro but I don’t know if this results in cheaper bills. If it does then that’s another good reason.
What I find somewhat surprising is the number of people that say BEV’s don’t work very well in cold conditions, and here we are with the Norwegians and apparently the Swedes and Danes buying them in large quantities? They seem to be dealing quite well with any deficiencies.

Back to Hybrids. I saw this on the Kia website. One probably small disadvantage not mentioned is that they are also the most likely type of car to catch fire according to statistics from insurance companies.

Have you got a link to that Vic?
Is it current? I could not find it and Kia sell hybrids.
The term “hybrid” is not well defined. It varies from “mild” like the early Fiat 500 hybrids where basically the alternator and starter are replaced by a single starter generator that provides little more than improved stop-start to cars that can drive several miles on electric only. The “less power” claim is clearly wrong for anything other than the most mild hybrid. As the electric motor and ICE can run together you clearly get more power than the ICE alone. Some large hybrids e.g. some of the Lexus models use the electric system to improve perfomance, particuarly acceleration from low speeds.

Robert.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

SoD said “ Internet carp strikes again! ”

I quite agree, but most of it comes from just a minority of EV haters.

Many EVs now utilise LiPO4 chemistry, which is far less likely to cause a fire.  The rest are far better serviced by the most recent safety devices.  Manufactures have only had a decade, or so, to develop this new technology.

Hybrids are more likely to conflagrate because of the extra mechanical/electrical complications – and are virtually all based on earlier ICE platforms.  Modular Electric Platforms have been developed recently, to protect the battery from damage in an accident.

As far as statistics of fully electric vehicles are concerned, one needs to look at just cars (not fires including electric scooters and bikes) of recent manufacture (fire risk has reduced greatly over the last decade, to a small number).  JLR hybrids have been a major problem over recent years.  Yes, statistics used by some are of a very nefarious nature!

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