Perpetual Motion

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

I noted that a letter from  MrPhipps regarding his theories on perpetual motion and conspiracy to suppress technology for it was published in ME 4370.

 

Frankly I am surprised that such a letter would be published, open as it is to flaming from all and sundry with engineering backgrounds. There is also the possibility that the conspiracy theorists among the readership may start a lengthy campaign. I would not like to see page space in ME filled with this drivel.

 

Would it not have been better to leave it out and spare Mr Phipps the potential needling and eventual embarrassment of the flaming?

 

 

Edited By Jeff Dayman on 12/02/2010 20:07:31

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

[Paul BoscottParticipant @paulboscott25817]

I would like to take this old chestnut down a different route whilst I assume that most of us will agree that perpetual motion can not exist. What about free energy along the lines of something powered by the gravity or light or some other force that is currently not tapped? Not perpetual motion but just a decade or so.???

 

Paul

[Geoff TheasbyParticipant @geofftheasby]

I suggest that this letter was published in order to show up the writer.

 

It is obvious that the premise is flawed, but is it worth the effort in order to show the writer how?   This is a subject which has been covered many times before.

 

Regards

Geoff

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi There

A bit of controversy helps fill the letters page.

I would not let it get out of hand though.

regards David

 

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

I am sorry but the charge should be “bringing a respected publication into disrepute”  There are enough cranks and politicians out there without encouraging own own.  I thought for a moment I had got the date wrong!

[Peter GainParticipant @petergain89847]

I agree that Mr Phipps cannot be taken seriously but for anyone wishing to pursue the subject, several books have been written about this. A visit to the local library & with the assistance of a sympathetic librarian will unearth some incredible Victorian ideas. To the Victorians, these proposals were offered as serious contenders for the “holy grail” of perpetual motion. To the modern reader they make an amusing diversion for a wet Sunday afternoon. Whilst they are all flawed, the ingenuity of the inventers is quite amazing!

Peter Gain.

[Laurence BParticipant @laurenceb]

Clearly Mr.Phipps does not understand the basic laws of physics.It concerns me that there are people like Mr.Phipps who think they know,and clearly don’t.

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

David Clark – not acceptable to me for an editor of ME to purposely wind people up in public print. This is the second time- I remember the Peter King letter re Mr Bellamy. You want to have a joke on someone, fine, suggest you go down to the pub. In a respected hobby magazine, it’s not OK.

 

KWIL – I agree it does bring the mag into disrepute, or easily could do so. I had the same thought about the month, but we’re to early. Even as a joke though, because it is directed at an individual with malicious intent to incite controversy, I would say it’s not acceptable.

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

I think that theories about perpetual motion will re-occur as long as mankind exists.

.

 

Edited By V8Eng on 13/02/2010 14:14:34

[chris stephensParticipant @chrisstephens63393]

Hi Guys,

 You castigate our Editor for publishing letters perpetuating myths, in a “respected publication” and letter writers for believing such tosh.

Well, I think the average reader is well aware of the myth of perpetual motion and sees such scribblings as a amusing side show, not to be taken seriously. There is no way an averagely intelligent reader would take the Editor publishing letters on this subject as, in anyway, advocating the plausibility  of any supposed methods.

Get real chaps!

chriStephens 

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

I am more than supportive of our present Editor, however I think it was a shame that valuable letter space was taken up by such drivel, space that we, the Readers, actually pay for.  So perhaps we can all let it  rest there and move on?

Edited By KWIL on 14/02/2010 10:01:38

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Was having a look on the net on the subject,came across the first person to publish a work on the subject,a French architect by the name of Villard de Honnecourt in the year 1235 AD.I then went on futher and saw an ad for a perpetual motion machine-batteries included,I think that says all. Ian S C

[David Clark 13Participant @davidclark13]

Hi There

There was no intention to upset the letter writer.

A little bit of argument keeps the letter pages going.

Also, Phillip Bellamy wrote me an apology after I published that letter.

I often get letters complaining I have not published ‘THEIR’ letter.

regards David

 

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Personally, i’ve always thought a gravity-fed source of free enery was entirely possible – povided I could find an infinitely deep hole.

 

Don’t let’s get too upset about these things…

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the concept of perpetual motion. Newton pointed out that a body will remain at rest or in a state of continuous motion unless acted on  by an external force.

 

All you need to do is reduce frictional and other losses to zero – in other words a closed system is a perpetual motion machine. The electrons whizzing around a superconducting magnet are effectively in perpetual motion.

 

Of course the real problem is the ‘closed system’ bit, even if one of these brave siouls achieved perpetual motion, they still can’t get energy for nothing – they start taking it out and the machine slows down.

 

More interesting is the possibility of generating energy at a quantum level – Maxwell’s demon anyone?

 

Neil

[mgjParticipant @mgj]

Yes, but don’t you have to put energy into the magnet to keep it cold enough to be a superconductor.

 

What about laser ring gyros – same idea, but even then light passing through a fibre optic generates heat……(not very much!) but you do get a phase shift eventually.?

[Mark Smith 3Participant @marksmith3]

According to our knowledge of thermo dynamics not only can you not get more from a system than you put into it, you cannot even get close (Carnot). There have been supposed perpetual motion machines in the past but they were usually fraudulant attempts to fool the punters out of their money; a little man hidden in the works cranking  a handle. I do remember reading about a big ben type clock in Britain that was claimed to be perpetual motion as it ran for 150 years without any visible energy input. But one day it stopped and required servicing. The engineers discovered that it ran on variations in atmospheric pressure so it was essentially solar powered. I’m not sure if this was just legend, but it is a good story.

A friend of mine, seemingly an intellegent person, suggested that if you connect a generator to the driving wheels of an electric car you should be able to power the drive motor from that and do away with the batteries. After I picked my jaw off the ground I spent a good hour trying to get him to understand something about energy – not sure I succeeded. 

On the day this thread appeared there was a link at the top of the page to a perpetual motion site that I followed and it described a magnetic machine of truely huge proportions that generated massive amounts of power from nothing! I don’t think so – unless it taps into some unknown and hitherto undiscovered source of Universe energy. In the mean time I will sceptically stay with Sadi Carnot.

Mark

Edited By Mark Smith 3 on 15/02/2010 06:02:02

[Martin WParticipant @martinw]

Neil

 

Maxwell’s Demon is alive and well, if my understanding of extreme cooling is correct. To get extremely low temps, a few milli kelvin above absolute zero, a magnetic or optical well/trap is created in which a few, relatively speaking, atoms are contained. The shape of the trap allows the more energetic atoms to climb the walls and then with the help of a finely tuned laser they are removed from the trap, the demon has opened the door to the high energy atoms, and hence energy has been removed from the group.

 

Continued removal of the higher energy atoms causes the cooling of the contained atoms as a cloud. Certainly not perpetual motion in any shape or form but Maxwell might have been interested!!

 

Cheers

 

 

Martin W

[Barry KnellerParticipant @barrykneller60930]

Posted by Mark Smith 3 on 15/02/2010 06:00:10:

……………………. The engineers discovered that it ran on variations in atmospheric pressure so it was essentially solar powered. I’m not sure if this was just legend, but it is a good story…………………………..

Mark

Edited By Mark Smith 3 on 15/02/2010 06:02:02

  Loads of info about a modern Atmospheric clock here : http://www.atmosadam.com/

 

– my next door nieghbour has one, just cost him a fortune to have it serviced….

 

Barry

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Just to be a bit controversial, how about the following:-
Prepetual motion does already exist and we live on a supreme example of that fact, (planet earth)

Our sun also appears to be a perpetual power source.

[wheeltapperParticipant @wheeltapper]

Posted by V8Eng on 15/02/2010 12:07:00:

Just to be a bit controversial, how about the following:-
Prepetual motion does already exist and we live on a supreme example of that fact, (planet earth)

Our sun also appears to be a perpetual power source.

 

 bit of luck you wont be around when it goes out then

 

Roy

[Peter GainParticipant @petergain89847]

I “invented” perpetual motion whilst still at school. Extremely simple. I coupled my cycle dynamo to an electric motor (Meccano), the motor drove the dynamo which powered the motor. As initial trials were rather disappointing I turned my attention to Keil Kraft model aircraft. Never did get around to finalising the project.  Now I know why!

Peter Gain.

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

bit of luck you wont be around when it goes out then.

 

Too right Roy, I can’t stand cold conditions!

Just noticed my post says Prepetual not perpetual, shame we cannot edit later.

 

 

Keil Craft aircraft, yes I spent a lot of my youth making them as well.

[wheeltapperParticipant @wheeltapper]

The only perpetual motion I am aware of is the perpetual movement of my money into someone elses pocket.

 

Roy

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