Parallel Universe

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Our Moderators may feel the need to delete this thread … but until they do:

Recommended reading … **LINK**

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61008293

MichaelG.

[JourneymanParticipant @journeyman]

To quote Terry Pratchett:

"A lie can run round the world before the truth has got its boots on."

John

[norm nortonParticipant @normnorton75434]

Yes, a worrying continuation of what new communications can achieve. As you say, a subject which might not survive too much discussion here? But I wonder if the ability of nations and large groups to deceive themselves has been going on in just the same manner since early times? A human frailty.

Edited By norm norton on 07/04/2022 10:13:41

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by norm norton on 07/04/2022 10:13:28:

… I wonder if the ability of nations and large groups to deceive themselves has been going on in just the same manner since early times? A human frailty.

Edited By norm norton on 07/04/2022 10:13:41

They called it religion in early times.

3…. 2….. 1…..?

Humankind seems to be an inherently self-delusional species. The Scientific Enlightenment of the 17th C etc seemed to slow the trend down for a bit as it spawned the Industrial Revolution and engineering etc. But now in the post-industrial era thanks to digital communications we seem to be going backwards to pre-Enlightenment magical thinking etc. instead of going forwards to more rational thinking. Ironic that humankind's greatest technical achievement is facilitating its downfall via misinformation, conspiracy theories and the like. Climate change and Covid vaccinations are two recent examples that come to mind.

 

Edited By Hopper on 07/04/2022 10:30:53

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

I've got personal and very recent experience of this parallelism.

We're in daily contact with people in China. A phone call to close family at the weekend reduced my other half literally to tears. The state-controlled news they're getting in China about Ukraine is clearly shockingly untruthful. [Actually, I know this because we watch that "news" ourselves].

But you try telling the older generations particularly that they're being fed a lie. That really is like "nailing jello to the wall".

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

The narrative fits the agenda, it always has

Anyone remember the Iraq invasion?

[Frances IoMParticipant @francesiom58905]

yes and the huge anti-war marches – no one could be unaware that there was opposition and dispute re the facts behind the then Government’s decision.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

parallel universe

Blairs weapons of mass destruction were Putins nazis

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Indeed we need an increase in national insurance to help pay for the NHS cos 350 million a week isn't enough.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Hopper's observation on delusion calls to mind a recent BBC Radio Four series on a background point about the rise of the Qanon fantasy.

The BBC's correspondent, Gabriel Gatehouse, had been in Washington to report on Joe Biden's inauguration as President, so of course also witnessed the invasion of the Capitol building. Among the invaders was a man in fancy dress, calling himself the "Q Shaman" , and carrying a "Q Sent Me" slogan. Gatehouse managed to meet this character, and this started his quest to investigate the origins of what has become a sort of cult.

He was unable to trace its originator, though found its route from obscurity to Facebook; but he made a significant point that its spread paralleled the 16C Malleus Maleficarum.

Malleus Maleficarum was a book by a German priest, expounding his ideas of evil witches being everywhere, and it sparked some 2 or 3 centuries of brutal "witch-hunting" across Europe.

The parallel, apart from that of eerily similar dogma, was the rapid and recent advances in communications. The book exploited the recent development of printing and publishing. Conspiracy-theories like Qanon exploit similarly, the Internet.

The crowd psychology among the ideologies' respective followers is the same; so is ideology using the rapid rise of new ways to disseminate its ideas widely. The main difference is only how it's done.

'

It's worth reading Charles Mackay's Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds, first published in 1841. Though rather heavy-going prose by our standards, it covers the histories of witch-hunts, the "South Sea Bubble", alchemy, assorted crime themes, and several other mass-delusions.

Interestingly, the chapter on "The Alchymists" reveals many doubted it even then – including some alchemists themselves disillusioned by its constant failures. One had even reported a symposium of the art being full of lame "if only" excuses such as: "~ I had heated it for another hour" , or " ~ my retort had not broken" . One nobleman imprisoned both "alchymist" and laboratory, promising him freedom only once he'd actually made the gold!

I would recommend the book as required reading for all politicians and conspiracy-fantasies.

'

I don't know Hopper's angle on Covid and this is not a political, nor medical, forum anyway; but what worries me about the climate-change debate is the appallingly low level of basic scientific and engineering knowledge, even at lay level, displayed publicly by most politicians, journalists and campaigners. Knowledge taught in school geography and science lessons. Or at least, used to be taught.

.

When it comes to mass stupidity in the face of logic, there is nowt new!

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Indeed, Nigel. Caxton's printing press was t'internet of its day, allowing hitherto wide and rapid dissemination of whatever the publisher chose to print, true, false or indifferent.

Interestingly, did you know Isaac Newton was a keen alchemist? Showing that even the most rational of great minds can at the same time harbour the most delusional of notions. The alchemists' biggest problem though was their secrecy. No publishing in peer reviewed journals for them. So there were no previous giants upon whose shoulders to stand to see over the next horizon. Anti-science in a way.

My point with Covid vaccines and global warming, without entering into the debate one side or the other, was that both have been widely supported by science on one side and widely pooh-poohed by less qualified self-appointed internet "gurus" on the other, taking full advantage of modern digital communication to do so. In the past the challengers to the orthodoxy would have had to wait for Caxton to print their book. Now it's a few keystrokes and hit the Send button.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Journeyman on 07/04/2022 09:34:10:

To quote Terry Pratchett:

"A lie can run round the world before the truth has got its boots on."

John

He gets too much credit – it's a lot older than that :-

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/07/13/truth/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CA%20lie%20can%20travel%20around,boots.%E2%80%9D%E2%80%94Mark%20Twain.

Edited By Mick B1 on 07/04/2022 12:18:19

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

"Most quotes on the internet are false" — Albert Einstein

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