Oxygen Cylinders

[Brian PritchardParticipant @brianpritchard66881]

Does anyone know if it is possible to get a Portoflame Oxygen cylinder re-filled? If not, where is the best place to buy/rent a cylinder? Any idea about the cost?

Thanks.

Brian

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

Try Hobbyweld

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

IF I understand the question correctly then it is a portapac type oxy set by BOC if so then search for BOC agents there all over the country. Not cheap and you will need an account, though that is a formallity. OR you can start again with another company but you will be unable to use the bottle you have. The fittings are standard so your gear will fit Good luck. Noel

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Have you got a picture of what you have, could be one of the disposable types like this

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

Someone asking the same question in 2014 and he didn’t seem to have any luck so could now be obsolete.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

I have NO real knowledge of this topic, so please accept this as a question, not an answer:

Is this of any relevance:

https://www.adamsgas.co.uk/product/porta-gas-rent-free-oxygen-gas-2l-200bar-refill-only/

 

?

MichaelG.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

They use the name Porta  as the bottles can be used with Portapak and Portaflame sets. I think the BOC set uses an E size bottle.

There are/were several “Porta……” units about that used disposables for both fuel and oxygen. Some of which can be converted to refillable bottles like your link with the right fittings Though if used once in a blue moon then disposable may be less hassle.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, disposable cylinders are a one time use only, and should never be refilled by any means. Commercial cylinders must not be refilled by anyone other than those that supply them, if you do refill them, you will be breaking the companies terms and conditions. Commercial refillable cylinders are checked/tested by the companies, and specialist high pressure systems are used, and of course the purity and dryness of the gases are strictly controlled.

Regards Nick.

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

I remember a portable set called the Portaflame system in the 1970s or early 80s.

the fuel gas was in a disposable canister but the oxygenwas in a cylinder smaller than the BOC Portapack cylinder (which I had).

The cylinder was refilled from full sized cylinders on-site I always kept well away when the service guy who owned it was refilling because it needed great care plus not letting the receiving cylinder temperature rise too much.
Not forgetting it depleted the welding guys main oxy cylinders!

As to using one now, certainly not for me!

And read Nicks comments above (written while I typed slowly).

 

 

[Bob WorsleyParticipant @bobworsley31976]

I asked a similar question somewhere about the MAP gas system that uses an oxygen cylinder, seems that you can easily buy an oxygen enrichment system for medical purposes, and whilst not pure it seemed it was ok for welding and brazing.

Not actually bought one to try though, quite expensive, remember £500+, but it is there and yours.

 

[V8Eng]

On V8Eng Said:

I remember a portable set called the Portaflame system in the 1970s or early 80s.

[…]

 

More uninformed input from me … just in case it helps:

https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/portaflame-welding-kit.298757/

Post#1 has a photo

MichaelG.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, re MichaelG’s above post, while the oxygen regulator in the photo has a standard cylinder connection, and would fit most commercial cylinders, it is most likely beyond it’s service life, regulators and flashback arresters should be replaced every five years, whether they have been used, or just sitting in storage. This is because there are perishable parts inside, which may fail unexpectedly after their service life.

Regards Nick.

[Andy StopfordParticipant @andystopford50521]

I had a set like the one in Michael’s link, back in about 1983. You could send the oxygen cylinder back to the people who sold it for a refill (which rapidly worked out rather expensive), or they would sell you a hose for re-filling it from a normal cylinder. I found a local commercial vehicle mechanic who would let me re-fill it from his cylinders, but I found the process, despite my youth and recklessness, decidedly terrifying, and got an account from BOC (which also meant I could get acetylene rather than MAPP gas, which isn’t really suitable for welding).

The cylinder was made from aluminium, with a flat bottom. Someone later told me it was actually a scuba air tank – I have no idea whether that was true, or whether it was really suitable for oxygen. I noticed, after it had been left on an earth floor for a few years, that it had developed deep corrosion pits on the base.

By the way, Hobbyweld no longer seem to supply acetylene – none of their agents in Kent and East Sussex that I contacted had it any more. This was something of a blow, since I had some welding to do on my Morris Minor Traveller (which is my sole transport). Needs must so I bought a gasless MIG welder (I have no undercover place to work on cars). For the princely sum of £104.99 I bought one of these:

Professional 140A Gasless MIG, TIG and MMA 3-in-1 Welder Non Live Torch model 230V No Gas with Mask & Welding Wire

I thought that at the price it was worth taking a chance on it being useless, but it actually works remarkably well, and its a lot cheaper to use than OxyAcetylene (I might get a propane regulator so I still have gas/O2 for freeing rusted fastenings, cutting etc.).

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Oxy propane will do most of what Oxy acetylene does but for cutting you will need a propane nozzle. I would use CO2 for your MIG, much neater than gasless. Noel.

[Andy StopfordParticipant @andystopford50521]

The MIG does have the option of using gas (and I do have a CO2 cylinder), but it was rather windy when I was using it, and a reel of  gasless wire came with it, so I used that (though I ended up having to buy some more – these jobs always turn out to be bigger than they seem at first). I hadn’t used the gasless wire before, but it wasn’t nearly as messy as I’d expected/feared. Can be a bit hard seeing exactly what you’re doing though.

I haven’t tried it with gas yet – a delight yet to come!

(Good point about needing a propane nozzle, I must remember to order one)

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

Got hobbyweld acetylene a couple of months ago from Norwich.

[Andy Stopford]

On Andy Stopford Said:

Can be a bit hard seeing exactly what you’re doing though.

 

Strongly recommend buying an auto-darkening welding helmet – it stopped my MiG and stick welding from being littered with failed start points and missing sections – the ability to see exactly where you are going to start welding up to the micro-second after the arc starts is truly transforming.
Simon

[JohnFParticipant @johnf59703]

I had a BOC account for Oxy Acetylene but the rental cost was very expensive so changed to Albee Gas a subsidiary of Air Liquede.

You purchase the cylinders as a one off, not inexpensive but they are full of gas.  The refills are also more than BOC but for me at least far more cost effective than paying rent on the BOC cylinders.  The Albee cylinders come with a built in regulator, the only grumble I have is the Oxygen regulator whilst adequate is a “coarse” unit and is a little difficult to fine tune for small torches.  I use them for my Tig & Mig gas as well.

Of course you need a supplier within reach.

John

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Air Liquide are owned by Linde as is BOC, so Albee Gas must be part of the same company. Interesting ! Noel.

[john fletcher 1Participant @johnfletcher1]

Has any one used those small CO2 gas cylinders from Tool station and Screwfix. No doubt the contents soon run out being small in capacity. John

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

A friendship with the local publican may well fix you up with CO2, but be sure it’s not the modern CO2 Nitrogen mix. Noel.

[noel shelley]

On noel shelley Said:

A friendship with the local publican may well fix you up with CO2, but be sure it’s not the modern CO2 Nitrogen mix. Noel.

I used “Pub” gas many years ago for Mig and the difference using a “proper” welding gas [CO2] is remarkable !  I would stay away from pub gas !

John

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, an Argon mix, like Argoshield or similar, are better than CO2, but do cost more, but pure argon isn’t any good for MIG welding steel.

Regards Nick.

[JohnF]

On JohnF Said:

On noel shelley Said:

A friendship with the local publican may well fix you up with CO2, but be sure it’s not the modern CO2 Nitrogen mix. Noel.

I used “Pub” gas many years ago for Mig and the difference using a “proper” welding gas [CO2] is remarkable !  I would stay away from pub gas !

John

The modern world is slowly crushing opportunities for ‘best mate’ cost-savings, perhaps most notably due to the computerised accounting systems that are good at spotting ‘rabbits’ – that is stock being nicked from a business.   Much easier in the past, when folk would do anything for a pint or packet of fags.   Times have changed.  Not impossible to find a pub that would allow a conspirator into the cellar to make whatever dodgy connections are needed to transfer gas, but I doubt many of us know of a pub that friendly!  On the other hand Class A drugs may well be available in the car park…

Also necessary as John warns to be sure about what the Gas obtained from a pub actually is.    Originally only food-grade CO² was used as Cellar Gas, and this is OK for welding, but since then mixtures have become common.  These are formulated to improve the taste and keeping of the beer, not to help amateur welders, so expect poor results!    And although pure CO² is used for welding, better results may be obtained from welding gas mixtures, often containing Argon.   May be worth coughing up for the right welding gas.

The underlying problem of course is cost.   Most gases are remarkably cheap when bought in industrial quantities, but the overhead of selling them in small quantities is enormous.   Selling to Joe Public involves retailers, distribution centres, cylinders, safety provisions, tax, pensions, delivery vans, and all these costs land on the customer.   So 600g of Toolstation CO² costs the hobbyist £15.83 when the wholesale price to industry is about 44x cheaper, £175 per ton, less when buying in bulk.

Ironically, industry will dump about 35 billion tons of CO² into the atmosphere this as a pollutant, even though the evidence now points convincingly to it causing catastrophic climate change.

Same cost disadvantage applies to the rest of the hobby:  our need to buy materials and tools in bits and bobs is grossly expensive,  which is why we all look for bargains!   Have to be careful with our money though, because many ‘bargains’ are nothing of the sort!

Dave

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Knowing NOTHING about MIG welding 50 years ago I bought a BOC Autolynx, you could say I fell for the salesmans patter( it was £750 in 1974) ! But may be not, during the intervening years I have learnt a lot, not least that the machine I bought was probably the best small MIG welder ever made. I have used migatronic, other later BOCs, Etc all expensive machines but the one thing with hand held MIG welding is that the wirefeed MUST be absolutely steady ! It is this that lets the cheap welders down, to the point that they are almost useless, or will give a very poor weld. A toy car electric motor mounted on a bit of plastic can not do the job of wire feeding. Stepped voltage control you can live with ! While a proper gas may give improved welding over Co2, the most important part is the quality of the machine.

Back to the thread ! The cost of bottle rental at about £130 p/a for a big 5′ tall one  may seem expensive but put it in the context of getting the job done at commercial rates, be it heating, cutting, welding Etc at may be £95/hour and it suddenly doesn’t look so bad ! I would not be without the argon, co2 or oxygen I have and a few paying jobs help cover the costs.  Noel.

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