Outrageous Set-ups!

[Stephen GoslingParticipant @stephengosling56241]

Model Engineers are an ingenious lot. I have often found that if you take a tricky job to a professional machinist, you might get the answer ‘I don’t have the equipment to do that’. However, the Model Engineer attitude is ‘this is the equipment I have got, how am I going to do it?’ The net result is some truly outrageous set-ups! I would like to ask for anyone out there to share some of theirs with us. This is mine for a start:

 

I am rebuilding a Great War Dennis lorry and found that the top of the steering column needed a skim. It was a bit of a stretch for the Myford!

 

I shall look forward to seeing further entries!

 

Steve

[Stephen GoslingParticipant @stephengosling56241]

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Ya just got to look round the other forums, Crappy clamping, milling cutters in drill chucks, yes, lets have a few more unsafe setups for the newbies to admire. Show them how Propper Ingineers do it. 

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

Ok, some practices are not good, however I do remember reading somewhere that Steve’s idea was perfectly acceptable – it was either Tom Walshaw/Tubal Cain or Len Mason – as it effectively doubled the length of the lathe.

 

Another idea I have read about was to use the tailstock between the headstock and cross-slide, fitting a bored plug in the tailstock, and leaving the tailstock to lathe bed slack. The idea was that the tailstock would then act as a sort of travelling steady by being pushed along the bed by the cross-slide. I think this might have been Len Mason, but could be wrong.

 

I think the idea of using (safe) adaptations in the home workshop to achieve a particular aim is perfectly laudable, and hence I would back Steve. Professional machinists if they haven’t got the adaptor ready made, aren’t going to have the time to make one, well not without charging an exhorbitant amount – the old time is money adage – whereas hobby machinists are not going to be too bothered about the time.

 

I don’t like to say this, but I really do not think Circlip’s sarcasm is justified.

 

Regards,

 

Peter G. Shaw

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

Love to Justify Peter.

 

   Take a piece of 1/2″ or 12mm dia bar and arrange to have as much out of the rear of the spindle as the poster has hung from the fixed steady UNSUPORTED to the right hand side. If you care to, put some packing round the bar in the spindle to take up any flop. Then switch on. If you’re REALLY lucky it will run true, if not, the attendandt flailing of the bar acts better than ANY laxative.  OH yes, I Haven’t added a damn great weight onto the free end so it could have been more spectacular.

 

  Perhaps Dave should post a rider onto the forum heading stating that any injuries sustained by anyone following examples of set ups on site are the sole responsibility of the observer OR poster and any claims for injuries should be directed to them.

 

  It’s bad enough showing photo’s of unsafe practice, but to proudly proclaim a request for “OUTRAGEOUS SET-UPS” somehow seems to knock at the lack of common sense.

 

   The old stagers that taught me the rudiments of Injineerin over forty years ago, did, despite my own stupidity at times, ensure that unlike them, I went home each night with ALL my bits intact. I therefore make NO excuses.

[RichmondParticipant @richmond]

I can see both points of view.

 

Whilst the H & S at work Act doesnt cover the home workshop, it is imperative that we all work in the safest manner possible.

 

The setup shown IS inherently unsafe, and I agree that we shouldnt have a call for outrageous setups.

 

However, part of model engineering is doing jobs with the tools at hand…..and at an appropirate speed.

 

So, I will keep an eye out for “daft” or plain dangerous setups …….. and I will add the rider here, that we as a website will not accept claims against us for set ups, and that they are the sole responsibility of the observer OR poster and any claims for injuries should be directed to them.

 

Rgds

 

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

Circlip,

I doubt very much that Stephen is using ½” bar: more likely in the region of 1″, and hence much more stiff.

I would also like to think that Stephen has used, as Richmond said. “an appropriate speed”. And, let’s face it – he has done the job both successfully and presumably safely, and that is what counts.

I think that we should accept that a lot of jobs are inherantly unsafe. The very fact that a machine with a half or three-quarter hp motor driving it is unsafe. Let’s face it, how many people remove the chuck guards, or don’t have a gearbox cover? What about the great lump of cast iron whirling around on a faceplate?  Or an off-centre job being balanced with change-wheels. All of these are inherantly unsafe. Then there is the milling machine with it’s extremely sharp cutters. Or the double-ended grinder with it’s wheels ready to fly apart. And the simplest machine one can get – a hand held pistol drill. I’ve lost count of the number of times when on slow speed the bit has jammed and the drill has turned through 90 degrees before I reacted fast enough to hold it, let alone release the trigger. That drill, by the way, had a power of 400W. I hate to think what one of these more modern higher powered drills would be like. Possibly even more dangerous.

 

The answer of course, is that it is up to each and everyone of us to exert the appropriate amount of care.

 

Now, I said that I had read about this idea somewhere else, and I’ve now taken the trouble to look it up. I would refer you to page 96 of Workholding in the Lathe by Tubal Cain in which he shows a 36″ long  x 1″ diameter bar being machined in lathe with a between centres distance of 19″. From the description, Tubal Cain was reducing the ends to fit the available bearings, ie a very similar if not the exact job to that of Stephen’s.

 

I have also looked up the idea of using the tailstock as a sort of travelling steady. Page 17 of Len Mason’s Using the Small Lathe describes the idea. Indeed, Mason describes it as a method of supporting work too long to go between centres.

 

Circlip, I don’t doubt that you know what you are doing, but when an accepted past master of engineering, Tubal Cain/T.D.Walshaw describes the idea, then I for one know who I am going to listen to. Same with Len Mason.

 

Finally, I still maintain that there was no need for the sarcasm, or for the superciliousness.

 

With that, I will go no further, except to say that on my lathe, I can’t even do either of the above ideas, firstly because I haven’t got (yet) a fixed steady, and even if I had, I haven’t got the room at the tailstock end; and secondly, without a major dismantling, I can’t move my tailstock as per Mason!

 

Regards,

 

Peter G. Shaw

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

36″ x 1″ bar Peter, Hmm  probably a Max of 16″ overhang on the outer end, and did it have a what?, possibly 4″ dia flywheel on the overhang?

 

    There is no doubt that if the Elfins got into ANY proficient Engineering toy makers workshop they would close the place down, but should we blatently advertise it??

 

  I don’t profess to know the best set-up for every eventuality, but if I did set any job up that had the slightest possibility of having a “Moment”, I’d have the common sense to keep me gob shut about it and not perform to the impressionable uneducated.

 

   Play safely,

 

      Regards  Ian.

[Stephen GoslingParticipant @stephengosling56241]

Gosh, talk about lighting the blue touch paper!

 

I certainly don’t want anyone to hurt themselves so perhaps I should have pointed out that I only ran it at 100rpm or so and cut within two inches of the chuck. Having an end flailing around would be a bit more excitement than I am looking for.

 

Saying all that though what I am really getting at is that with care and ingenuity, one can do a lot more jobs than immediately apparent based on the equipment one has or aspires to. I am always keen to see what can be done so I still think it valid to ask for suggestions and constructive comment. After all, we only do this for fun and few of us are toolroom trained any more so we have not been told what is impossible!

 

Finally chaps, let’s keep it friendly. It’s only a hobby after all!

 

Steve

[mgjParticipant @mgj]

Well lets just say that many model engineers do many things to extend the capabilities of their machines, and provided speeds and feeds are kept sane, they do it fine well. (and always knew they would)

 

In most cases all one risks is the machine, or even just the job, rather than the operator.

 

Which proves that in most  cases, a little common sense is a lot more useful than a whole passel of elfins.

 

(Perhaps we might also remember that rules are for the guidance of the wise, and the blind obedience of fools.)

 

  If its any consolation to either of the injured parties, I’d have cheerfully done that job at a low speed – but I have 2 fixed steadies, and I would  have used both, the additional one being nearer the cut, to prevent the job from vibrating or kicking.

 

Is it more stupid than the individual who wanted to surface grind a chunk of austenitic stainless and so secured it to the machine table with a magnetic chuck……. now that really is an outrageous set up!

 

Frankly I put up with enough half baked nonsense from unthinking elfins at work, who seem to assume that statistics as remote as the chances of Mars colliding with Earth represent commonplace reality, and back them up with the pseudo science of risk assessment figures for the feeble minded – I thank the Good Lord that they have no jurisdiction over me while I play. Its probably entirely appropriate that 2 Jags was given responsibility  for H&S, in between other diversions?

 

Oh and if anyone wants a temporary but quite effective fixed steady- make up a bookend shaped bit of wood out of sane sized ply. Clamp to lathe bed and drill an appropriate sized hole in it, and then place as required. Adjust for line with a DTI on hte job. Anyone who has made a Dore Westbury quill on a Myford will have met that cheap, cheerful and very effective approach! I don’t suppose it is as good a proper fixed steady, but its a lot better than none. Proceed with sanity and caution, because I for one have no patience with the determinedly stupid!!!!!!!.

 

Edited By meyrick griffith-jones on 30/06/2009 23:37:10

Edited By meyrick griffith-jones on 30/06/2009 23:50:01

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

A number of years ago I was helping a friend to restore a Lanz Bulldog tractor,single cyl 2 stroke diesel.One ring groove was damaged,and we found a new one .020″ wider.I couldn’t get the locating pin out of the groove,but I loaded the piston (about8″ dia x 18″ long)into a 4jaw chuck on my friends ancient and very large lathe,and by pulling the chuck over by hand,turned the groove out to size round to the pin,then turned the tool over and by turning backwards cut the groove to the pin in the other direction.
The most difficult bit was at the beginning when I had to change the chuck_18″ 4jaw!

[The HarperParticipant @theharper]

I can’t help but agree with Circlip & Meyrick, H&S elfins put pay to common sense and getting jobs done sensibly sometimes.

Many a work place I have had the pleasure to either work for, or sub work to, have encouraged safe working but at the same time allowed the person doing the job the flexibility to carry out the task in the best way they feel will achieve the end result.

 

I have found clamping (work holding) to be be the main problem on awkward shaped jobs, sometimes you may have to take some time to make a specific clamp or packing block to make a job safe.

 

The golden rule is:- you should not try and carry out a task if YOU feel the setup is unsafe. If you have any doubts then revisit the setup. You can never stop all accidents, but most are caused by trying to hurry a job through, sometimes you will have no inkling that there is a chance of an accident, they are just sod’s law, ie cutters or drills breaking or, perish the thought, a machine breaking down.

 

I wish now that I had taken a picture, or two, of a job I was doing in my workshop about two months ago. I had to put a keyway 5/32″ x 5/82″ (4mm x 16mm ish)  by 5/32″ (4mm)deep in a 3/4″ (19mm) diameter  shaft. Very easy so far I hear you say, but the shaft was attached to 36 inches of 9 inch diameter gang mower blade and my milling machine bed is only 33″ (850mm) long, plus I had to be able to cut the thing. The clamping set up was a health and safety nightmare, but it was safe and secure to me, I managed to machine the keyway cleanly and repeated the operation 5 further times to complete the set. But photos would have been fun!!

 

To reflect on some words my old boss said to me during my apprenticeship “Charlie (my then nickname), Swiss engineers have always been respected for their precision, the Germans have always been noted for their working methods and the English engineers will get you the job done whatever it takes!”  I think this should sum up the attitude of the safe model engineering.

 

Just my thoughts, good luck.

[Stephen GoslingParticipant @stephengosling56241]

Posted by The Harper on 17/07/2009 18:28:22:

 

The golden rule is:- you should not try and carry out a task if YOU feel the setup is unsafe. If you have any doubts then revisit the setup. You can never stop all accidents, but most are caused by trying to hurry a job through,  

 

Absolutely! The one thing we all have is the time to think the job through and assess the risks, mitigating them as appropriate. Thank you for your thoughts!

 

Steve

[Donald LunnParticipant @donaldlunn12212]

Looking at the comments about setups reminded me of a friend who some years ago worked for a large engineering firm here in dorset,the company is now long gone.Being the new boy he wasn’t accepted by the old hands(that’s the way it was there).My friend worked on the milling M/Cs and one morning was given a large job to set up.After a while he got it set up and started the M/C up and it went bang.He had only set the clamps up lightly as he was doing the setup,and forgot to tighten them properly.The guy on the next M/C to him ambled over to him and said “THAT WAS BAD LUCK MATE, I SAW THAT YOU HADN’T TIGHTENED THEM UP”.No answer to that.

 

Regards

 Don

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