Old vs new milling machine

[Sonic EscapeParticipant @sonicescape38234]

Last winter I was looking for a milling machine. And in the end I bought a lathe
However, last week one the seller that I was discussing back then contacted me again. He lowered the price for his mill. I didn't saw it yet, I only have some pictures. He claim that is in working order. But can't be tested. It has a 3-phase motor. One more detail, I never saw or touch a milling machine in reality.

I wasn't planning to buy a milling machine now. I have enough fun with the lathe. But at some point in the future I'm sure I will considering to buy a new one. Something up to 2000euro and in 130-200kg range. I'm not sure if this old machine is a good deal. For sure it is more rigid, it has 800kg. But a new one is … new.

Also in the second image I don't understand why the top part can extend to the left mote than the width of the table? And what is the table in the last picture?

[Sonic EscapeParticipant @sonicescape38234]

[HuubParticipant @huub]

A milling machine, standing in the garden (for some time) in working order that can't be tested, is a gamble. Such a heavy machine isn't a walk in the park to take apart.

Here in the Netherlands, these type of machines are for sale quit often so I can wait for a machine that can be tested.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Assuming the ways and lead-screws are not too badly worn, that milling-machine looks as if it could be a very good and useful, but power-hungry, machine. It seems to have been cared for.

In some respects the motor's condition is less important because that can be replaced relatively easily (though not cheaply) with a modern 3-ph motor and VFD.

The extension of the "top part" beyond the table is to allow it to support the horizontal-milling arbor without encroaching on the table area. There should be with this machine, that arbor and its supporting drop-bracket, which would to have dovetails to fit those on the underside of the ram.

What I have just noticed further, is that the head is in two parts: the ram is carried on a lower part that itself can be moved back and forth. I am guessing this is allied to using the machine with….

…. that separate table. As I believe it is, to fit on the knee so its working surface is vertical, rather like a super-sized angle-plate. Looking at the other photos, it does seem the table on there at present is carried on a separate slide so can be swapped.

Looking back again, there seems no in-out travel for the table itself. Instead the head is moved. I am not sure how that affects milling round an outline like a rectangle, but I've a suspicion the machine's primary use is as a horizontal mill, where all the cutting is longitudinal.

I mentioned "the" motor. It might have more than one – the spindles, obviously, but others for power feed and table rise-&-fall.

.

You'd need an overhead hoist or other handling equipment, perhaps a dedicated trolley, to swap the tables safely.

I looked carefully but could not see a maker's name on it, but I think Deckel and Aciera are two makes with this interchangeable table system.. Try to identify it then see what Tony Griffith's lathes.co site has to say about it.

[Sonic EscapeParticipant @sonicescape38234]

What caught my attention is that the table has no scratch. So maybe it wasn't used too much. I have no problem to fix the machine, I actually think that would be interesting. But I'm aware that are things that can't be fixed. Or it is simply too expensive.
Why would you need a vertical working surface? For tall workpieces?

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

You know it's a Deckel right? Highly prized machine if it can be restored.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

" Tall workpieces? "

Yes, but more particularly so large parts can be machined on two or more faces at right angles to each other.

E.g. something like a large worm-drive gearbox needing two multi-diameter bores to intersect very accurately; and too large to mount on an angle-plate on the table in the conventional way.

I don't know the Deckel machines in detail but it might have a knee drive arranged as a full precision power-feed, not simply as a way of raising and lowering the heavy table without wearing the operator out.

[William SParticipant @williams]

Not a Deckel but a Theil 158 **LINK**

same layout as the Deckel just a tad bigger, Stefan gotteswinter on YouTube has a Deckel and demonstrates it’s versatility, in my opinion I would prefer that over a new mill any day of the week.
Although I would be taking a keen interest in the accessories and most importantly spindle tooling that’s included. If I remember correctly the Theil has a proprietary design so finding tooling that fits off the shelf is a pain.

I hope that helps

William

[Sonic EscapeParticipant @sonicescape38234]

Indeed it looks like a Thiel 158! Or most likely a Romanian copy of it. I didn't saw the Thiel logo on the spindle. The first models were made with a custom spindle but the later ones were using standard MT5. It is a pity that the seller doesn't know this details.

Edited By Sonic Escape on 23/06/2023 06:02:27

[Sonic EscapeParticipant @sonicescape38234]

I asked the seller to send more photos and surprise, I think there is also a horizontal milling attachment. Or at least a part of it? Is that thing under the table. This would explain why the top of the machine can extend so far. That is also what Nigel Graham 2 suggested.

Edited By Sonic Escape on 23/06/2023 07:11:30

Edited By Sonic Escape on 23/06/2023 07:19:54

[jaCK HobsonParticipant @jackhobson50760]

It's chalk and cheez.. but still tricky to make a decision! Do you want to draw, or eat? Both

If you are sure you can cope with handling a big machine, now and later, then big machines have many advantages in use. Even so, a good small new mill might still be useful in the future. So they are not necessarily mutually exclusive. A good, new, small mill can easily cost more than a much better, old, big mill.

In the end I was too daunted with the idea of moving such a big machine and dedicating such are large area to it's siting. Usually I don't regret it.

But old iron might not 'just' be a bit worn. With all the power feeds and multiple motors on some of them, essential features (like fine height adjustment via quill rather than table) might not work and could be difficult to restore. To be sure, you have to know how to work every part of the machine and have access.

[Chris Evans 6Participant @chrisevans6]

For hobby use these old style mills lack spindle speed for small cutters.

[Sonic EscapeParticipant @sonicescape38234]

Yes, is not an easy decision. The fact that this old machine is more complex that a small new one is a risk but it also makes it more interesting. I start to think that I could do something with all that metal anyway. At least if the ways are ok. That is the only thing I don't think can be fixed.

[Dave WoottonParticipant @davewootton]

I've owned a Thiel 158, it was an excellent machine for the use I needed it for, to cut fairly chunky gears on, and indeed was an really well built and versatile machine. I bought it very cheaply as it had been standing for years, inside but not in ideal conditions, and although in good order there were a few problems to be overcome. The machine was bought for the specific purpose of doing some heavy milling and gear cutting for a traction engine project, which it did very well. It was then sold on to a friend who still uses it for traction engine building.

I'm not trying to discourage, but these and the clones ( which I think this is) which follow the basic design quite closely, are a fairly complex machine, I had to replace all the oil seals in the feed and main gearboxes, which entailed a lot of dismantling and was very time consuming. The original main motor contains an automatic cone brake as used in small cranes, and will not run on a standard phase converter without a pilot motor. If you are looking for a fairly long term project then after some hard work you would have a superb heavy duty milling machine, power feed in all directions. I'm used to working on machine tools and found it a surprisingly long job and I was not fully resoring it just making it leak free ( every seal on the machine had turned rock hard with age) and suitable for the work in hand.

Not as I say trying to discourage, just pointing out that this is quite a major undertaking to do properly, it's a heavy thing, do you want a mill or a major project?. As someone stated above the condition is a bit of a gamble so I would not pay too much for it if you decide to go for it. Mine was a few hundred quid so not a major risk financially, but there was a fair amount of time had to be invested in it. There was a chap making replacement spindles for the vertical heads to convert to 40 int from the I think 5mt original ( might be 4 mt, can't remember!) mine had already been done. If you do buy it you can always PM me as there are some traps for the unwary that I can vaguely still remember!

Dave

[Sonic EscapeParticipant @sonicescape38234]

Posted by Dave Wootton on 23/06/2023 08:09:34:

I've owned a Thiel 158, it was an excellent machine for the use I needed it for, to cut fairly chunky gears on, and indeed was an really well built and versatile machine. I bought it very cheaply as it had been standing for years, inside but not in ideal conditions, and although in good order there were a few problems to be overcome. The machine was bought for the specific purpose of doing some heavy milling and gear cutting for a traction engine project, which it did very well. It was then sold on to a friend who still uses it for traction engine building.

I'm not trying to discourage, but these and the clones ( which I think this is) which follow the basic design quite closely, are a fairly complex machine, I had to replace all the oil seals in the feed and main gearboxes, which entailed a lot of dismantling and was very time consuming. The original main motor contains an automatic cone brake as used in small cranes, and will not run on a standard phase converter without a pilot motor. If you are looking for a fairly long term project then after some hard work you would have a superb heavy duty milling machine, power feed in all directions. I'm used to working on machine tools and found it a surprisingly long job and I was not fully resoring it just making it leak free ( every seal on the machine had turned rock hard with age) and suitable for the work in hand.

Not as I say trying to discourage, just pointing out that this is quite a major undertaking to do properly, it's a heavy thing, do you want a mill or a major project?. As someone stated above the condition is a bit of a gamble so I would not pay too much for it if you decide to go for it. Mine was a few hundred quid so not a major risk financially, but there was a fair amount of time had to be invested in it. There was a chap making replacement spindles for the vertical heads to convert to 40 int from the I think 5mt original ( might be 4 mt, can't remember!) mine had already been done. If you do buy it you can always PM me as there are some traps for the unwary that I can vaguely still remember!

Dave

Thank you Dave, this was helpful.

[Dave WoottonParticipant @davewootton]

Been racking my brain to remember the make of the motor with inbuilt brake, it's a Demag and has a cone clutch on the end of the motor. The motor shaft is given some end float and is sprung loaded and when the motor is energised the rotor moves in towards the motor and away from the brake housing. the reverse happens when the power is switched off stopping the spindle very rapidly. Great feature that caused some consternation at first thinking the motor was siezed!

Dave

[Dave WoottonParticipant @davewootton]

Me again!

Just noticed that in the classifieds under the heading various there is in the list an Alexander master toolmaker mill for sale, the smaller version of this style of machine, and a copy of the Deckel. Stated as being well tooled and running on an inverter. Might be of interest to you, I've bought something from Chris the seller in the past and he is a nice chap to deal with and very knowledgeable.

Dave

[Sonic EscapeParticipant @sonicescape38234]

Posted by Dave Wootton on 23/06/2023 10:14:10:

Me again!

Just noticed that in the classifieds under the heading various there is in the list an Alexander master toolmaker mill for sale, the smaller version of this style of machine, and a copy of the Deckel. Stated as being well tooled and running on an inverter. Might be of interest to you, I've bought something from Chris the seller in the past and he is a nice chap to deal with and very knowledgeable.

Dave

I live in Romania. I'm just infiltrating here 

Edited By Sonic Escape on 23/06/2023 10:32:25

[Dave WoottonParticipant @davewootton]

That does put a whole new spin on things!!! Collection could prove difficult and expensive.

Are machines readily available in Romania? just out of interest, I was wondering whether the Chinese machines are available as easily as here, and if there was a market in ex industrial machinery. Always interested in how other countries do things. My son is a professional musician and regularly visits Romania and says it is a spectacularly beautiful place.

I'm sure you are aware that this could have a marked bearing on the desirability of the pictured mill.

Dave

[Chris GunnParticipant @chrisgunn36534]

Sonic, there looks to be several very expensive accessories with the machine, so maybe worth a gamble if the price is right. If the motor is in the base it may be relatively easy to change it for an up to date motor and then fit a VFD.

Chris Gunn

[Nigel McBurney 1Participant @nigelmcburney1]

I have worked on a Deckel,and for accuracy they cannot be beaten,if its a copy it should still be a good machine,the tables look good very few marks,I found those multi slot tables so much better than long narrow tables plenty of space for clamping work.

[Sonic EscapeParticipant @sonicescape38234]

Posted by Dave Wootton on 23/06/2023 11:20:52:

That does put a whole new spin on things!!! Collection could prove difficult and expensive.

Are machines readily available in Romania? just out of interest, I was wondering whether the Chinese machines are available as easily as here, and if there was a market in ex industrial machinery. Always interested in how other countries do things. My son is a professional musician and regularly visits Romania and says it is a spectacularly beautiful place.

I'm sure you are aware that this could have a marked bearing on the desirability of the pictured mill.

Dave

Shipping from UK is not difficult. Just very expensive. In the past I moved my stuff in Spain or Germany when I was living there using a company that has a large database of cars moving across the continent. You can rent space in a truck that is passing nearby and it is not that expensive. But if it is from outside EU the cost explode. And there is also paperwork involved in this case. That is another cost.

Yes, all Chinese machines are available here just as easily as everywhere. Including more decent brands like Sieg, Paulimot and other shipped from Germany. Some even with free shipping. There is a Bernardo shop 4km from me. And of course Ebay, Amazon and Aliexpress drop the items to my door.

The biggest difference here comparing with UK or Germany or other places in the west is the lack of a market for old industrial machines. This ones are is nice to buy them from as close to you as possible. And the few choices available are 90% old Romanian models. They did some clones here of various foreign models in the past. But the quality is not great. Old people would often praise them, together with the "good old days when everybody had a job and a free apartment", but most of them are junk in my opinion. They simply didn't saw anything better to compare with.

Most Romanian milling machine are called FUS xx. FUS stands for toolroom milling machine. There were made in factories like Infratirea (brotherhood), Marghita, Cugir. Here is a search on the largest local market just to have an idea. In general the price for one mill that is expected to be in working order starts from at least the equivalent of 1300 GBP. The one that I want to buy is 700GBP. So if it is in decent condition it would be a nice deal considering the local market. And the accessories.

Nature is indeed beautiful and diverse here. No complains. Only the fact that it is an inhabited country can sometimes cause inconveniences.

Edited By Sonic Escape on 23/06/2023 12:54:36

Edited By Sonic Escape on 23/06/2023 13:15:09

[Sonic EscapeParticipant @sonicescape38234]

Posted by Chris Gunn on 23/06/2023 12:03:35:

Sonic, there looks to be several very expensive accessories with the machine, so maybe worth a gamble if the price is right. If the motor is in the base it may be relatively easy to change it for an up to date motor and then fit a VFD.

Chris Gunn

Yes, I think the same. I already decided to buy it. Next week the seller will bring a crane to load it and I'll move it into my garage.

Edited By Sonic Escape on 23/06/2023 13:06:07

[Dave WoottonParticipant @davewootton]

Thanks for posting the link, very interesting finding out how things stand in other countries, seems that type of mill is more common there than in the UK. Very versatile style of machine, I hope you get on well with it, the accessories would as Chris says be very expensive and desirable for a Thiel here. If you rebuild it some posts on here would be of great interest. The motor , in a Thiel anyway, is in the base, belt driven to the main gearbox and is flange mounted, so would be easy to change for a modern one with inverter if you wanted to go down that route. The Thiel motor is 2.2HP 1500 RPM, I did at one time think of changing it for an inverter driven one, but with a pilot motor on a static converter the machine ran fine. The pilot motor was fitted at the recommendation of transwave the makers of my static converter, evidently the starting load to detach the brake cone was too much without the pilot. The instant braking was a great feature. I have got some rather scrappy information on the Thiel including a wiring diagram if it's any help I can scan it to you, just send your email address. The price seems a bit of a bargain with the accessories so don't blame you for buying it.

Dave

[Sonic EscapeParticipant @sonicescape38234]

Today my milling machine arrived! Two friends went to bring it. It was a 12h journey and I didn't have time to go. The mill also took a ferry ride. It was on the other side of the Danube. Unloading it was epic. They insisted that if we put it on a pallet truck and tilt the truck, then the mill will go down a ramp and we will be able to hold it with that small yellow excavator. I was watching this experiment from a distance unwilling to participate
The mill was tilting dangerously because the pallet truck is to narrow. This is a 1.2 ton machine. And the center of mass is high. After a while I convinced them to stop and I called that orange truck with a big crane. Bellow the crane operator was just getting out of his truck to check the situation. He was able to lift the mill over the small truck and to lower it right in front of the garage. 

I didn't inspected to much the mill. The tables are indeed without a scratch. But they are stuck. You have to put a lot of effort to rotate the wheels. I didn't insisted too much. The electrical wiring looks fine, but I would not turn it on without a lot of checking. There is a single stamp with 1979 year. No other markings. But it is clear a Romanian clone. I recognized the fuse holders and thermal overload relays. They are local models typical of that era.
The accessories are incredibly heavy. The rotating table I can barely flip it on the workbench. And the other table is impossible to lift it alone.

First thing I checked was what tool holder is using. Unfortunately I don't think it is Morse. And for sure is not ISO. I found a taper in horizontal milling accessories. I have no idea what it does but it fits perfectly into the spindle. The dimensions are like this:

I didn't find any standard taper with 30µ/mm. So this will be a first problem. I think that in the worst case I should be able to make on the lathe an adapter to Morse 3. Maybe. Overall I find it very interesting. A lot of buttons and handles that I have no clue what are they doing. And the lathe looks almost like a toy comparing to it. Everything is heavy and solid.

One annoying thing is that if you rotate the wheels nothing happens. You have to push them and to keep them pressed. While rotating them. There is a spring inside. I suppose it has something to do with automatic feed. But this must be a design choice, not a defect. I'll have a better look next weekend.

 

Edited By Sonic Escape on 29/06/2023 00:32:05

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