(old) Proxxon BFW 36/E vs. (new) Proxxon BFW 40/E

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Please can people stop mudslinging?

The OP is happy to continue, but I suggest that just those making positive comments continue to participate.

As for repeatability when moving the head, a popular solution for round-column mills is a vertical line on the far side of the workshop and a laser pointer attached to the mill. A distance of several feet gives a workable level of accuracy/.

Neil

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 04/10/2021 16:00:37:

As for repeatability when moving the head, a popular solution for round-column mills is a vertical line on the far side of the workshop and a laser pointer attached to the mill. A distance of several feet gives a workable level of accuracy/.

Neil

I've not actually used the laser and line method and my current milling machine is already constrained by a keyway but it occurs to me that the line on the wall does not need to be vertical (in the gravity sense) but more that it should be parallel to the axis of the machine column.

If the machine is just sat on a bench and has not been set up so its column is dead vertical then surely errors would be introduced.

I suppose if a laser pointer (mounted sideways) in the quill could be used to 'draw' a short line on the wall which could then extended upwards and downwards, that would ensure it was inline with the machine column.

Ian P

[Anonymous]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 04/10/2021 16:00:37:

…….suggest that just those making positive comments continue to participate.

I hope that applies to the OP as well; he has form for airily dismissing almost all attempts at help.

Andrew

[Grindstone CowboyParticipant @grindstonecowboy]

Posted by John Smith 47 on 01/10/2021 17:23:05:

…..
But was he right to use dog point? Wouldn't V at the bottom of the slot (plus a V point on the screw) help centre it?……
 

I think he was – it would only take a very small amount of wear, or a very small loosening of a V-pointed screw to have a large effect on the possible angular movement. Whereas a dog-pointed screw would at least be consistent until it fell out altogether.

Although I don't think either would be a good enough method to be relied upon for accurate positioning. I like Pete's suggestion of marking the column and clamp and aligning by eye.

+1 on what Andrew said as well, people tend to respond to how they are addressed.

Rob

Edited By Grindstone Cowboy on 05/10/2021 09:53:16

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

Posted by peak4 on 23/09/2021 22:52:26:

If it's of any interest, There's a Unimat 3 up for sale HERE
https://store.lathes.co.uk/adverts/for-sale/emco-unimat-3-lathe-milling-attachment-austrian-built

Bill

This was a good suggestion.

Although I don't need a lathe at this point, the more I research I've now done, the more I think this was an extremely good suggestion.

Had I been aware of the existence larger Unimat 3 milling table I would have gone for it, particularly given that the previous owner had upgraded the original weedy (75w?) motor.

FWIW, I'm still thinking about this Unimat Milling Machine even though I definitely cant really afford it! (£850)

>**LINK**
It sounds like it's in extremely good condition with a spindle nose runout of "0.01mm".
Unfortunately it also sounds like I would probably need to upgrade that "2 speed Unimat 3 motor" (75watt?)
Also it would be coming from Italy…

> As for repeatability when moving the head, a popular solution for round-column mills is
> a vertical line on the far side of the workshop and a laser pointer attached to the mill.
Yes, a bit fiddly but a clever idea. Although given the choice, I still think I would prefer using the side of a keyway slot + dog-pointed screw…

One misunderstanding is that just because I don't explicitly thank & acknowledge each and every comment does not mean that I am dismissing them – not for a second! The truth is that my silence often means that I am still digesting/researching a suggestion… an example being the Unimat lathe/mill. Ignoring to personal commentaries, in my opinion, the standard of technical suggestions regarding is generally extremely high here, but I think people have enough to read as it is.

J

PS Where else might search for an EMCO Unimat Milling Machine to buy other than lathes.co.uk and eBay?

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by Grindstone Cowboy on 05/10/2021 09:47:19:

+1 on what Andrew said

+2.

I admire Andrew's tact for choosing "airily".

Edited By Bill Phinn on 05/10/2021 17:23:46

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

Posted by Bill Phinn on 05/10/2021 17:14:44:

Posted by Grindstone Cowboy on 05/10/2021 09:47:19:

+1 on what Andrew said

+2.

I admire Andrew's tact for choosing "airily".

Edited By Bill Phinn on 05/10/2021 17:23:46

FFS, can we get back to workshop tools model engineering, please?

[HollowpointParticipant @hollowpoint]

I haven't read the whole thread because frankly I can't be bothered But I might as well throw my opinion into the mix since I collect these small machines.

Ok so first the Emco 3 mill is a nice little machine (I own one) but they are quite rare and rather collectable and therefore expensive. Parts and accessories are readily available second hand. However there are better alternatives.

Probably the best of the lot (other than the mega expensive watchmakers machines) is the Cowells mill. Unfortunately they rarely come up for sale and prices are high. Parts and accessories are available both new and second hand but expect to pay up!

The Sherline mill is the next best, they aren't particularly cheap new and can be difficult to find in the UK second hand. Parts and accessories are available new and second hand but they aren't so common in the UK. Lots available in the US if you are willing to import them.

One not mentioned is the Proxxon FF230. It is very similar in a lot of ways to the Emco 3 mill and is of at least equal quality if not better. It's worth knowing that not all proxxon tools are created equally. Some are dire while others are quite good. The FF230 and PF230 are two of there better products. Again they aren't particularly cheap but parts and accessories are fairly common within the UK and Europe.

Forget the rest. Those 4 are the pick of the bunch if you absolutely must have a micro mill.

[Anonymous]

Posted by John Smith 47 on 05/10/2021 17:37:13:

…..workshop tools model engineering…..

I thought I'd read most of this thread, but I seem to have missed that bit.

Andrew

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

Hollowpoint – thanks.

>… if you absolutely must have a micro mill.
Indeed, I must.

I definitely have no space for anything larger. 

I had forgotten about Cowells. The Cowells vertical milling machine does look like an extremely nice piece of kit. You weren't kidding about being pricey, current retail price on http://www.cowells.com/pricelist.htm is £2485.00 for the B100. But they sound rare and unsurprisingly I can't find a single second hand one for sale.

[Btw, is it a better design to have a cross table on a 'knee' that comes up to the milling head or for the milling head to come down to the table?]

I have been considering Sherline. They are made in the US of course and windup being pretty expensive if new. Also I don't like the idea of not having a quill for drilling. I may get shot down for this but it just seems like poor design to me. I mean, why can't a machine be a drill if it's already a mill?

I see what you mean about the Proxxon FF230 being a similar design to the EMCO 3. The Proxxon PF230 appears to effectively be the same product as the FF230 except that it can attach the former to a lathe – much like the EMCO 3 could. The FF230 is a nice weight at just 17K, but new it's c. £910 and does seem to have rather a slow top speed (280 to 2200 rpm).

However in my experience it's a brave man around here that says Proxxon is as good as… well pretty well anything! And certainly EMCO Unimat seems to have a lot of fans. But you sound like you have a lot of experience.

Btw, do you have any experience or firm opinions on the Proxxon BFW 40/E Mill/drill system?
[e.g. Axminster are selling a "Complete Mill/Drill System" for £624.98 all in, consisting of BFW 40/E Mill/Drill Motor and Controller, BFB 2000 Mill/Drill Stand, KT 150 Compound Table & Step Clamp Set].

Given the lack of vertical screw, I rather like the idea of having the power/controller in a separate box… 900-6000rpm, 250watts consumption,…

…however its mill/drill unit (BFB 2000) looks like it might flex somewhat when under milling load, no?

Conclusion
The more research I do, the clearer it becomes that any sensible milling machine for mild steel would need to be second hand, and not new. Also being a milling novice, that may not go so well.

e.g. If the Proxxon FF230 is genuinely quite well made, and only 17Kg maybe I might consider buying one of them second hand, even though the Proxxon brand definitely has its detractors.

Edited By John Smith 47 on 05/10/2021 22:25:43

[HollowpointParticipant @hollowpoint]

I haven't used the proxxon bfw40 but have played around with a display model. (Not running). IMO the construction of the machine is way too light for milling. It's more like an accurate drill.

The Emco 3 which is better and of slightly heavier construction is only just rigid enough for light milling. So you can see the problem.

The FF230 is about the same quality of construction as the Emco 3 but has a few small tweaks that the Emco lacks. The column although still round is slightly larger diameter and the head has a proper vertical adjustment aiding alignment.

Both of the above are less rigid than either the Cowells or Sherline and so both of the latter make better milling machines. It's true they are not so good for drilling without the quill feed. However a sensitive drilling attachment is available for the Sherline which is good for drilling small holes.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by John Smith 47 on 05/10/2021 16:39:18:

Posted by peak4 on 23/09/2021 22:52:26:

If it's of any interest, There's a Unimat 3 up for sale HERE
https://store.lathes.co.uk/adverts/for-sale/emco-unimat-3-lathe-milling-attachment-austrian-built

Bill

This was a good suggestion.

Although I don't need a lathe at this point, the more I research I've now done, the more I think this was an extremely good suggestion.

Had I been aware of the existence larger Unimat 3 milling table I would have gone for it, particularly given that the previous owner had upgraded the original weedy (75w?) motor.

[…]

.

A simple [and non-confrontational] question, if I may, John : Why were you not aware ?

The item on offer was well-described and illustrated.

It’s obviously ‘water under the bridge’ … but perhaps might trigger some introspection.

MichaelG.

.

P.S. __ You might wish to compare it with this current listing on ebay:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/115011982417

[but would probably better not]

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 06/10/2021 09:21:51

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by John Smith 47 on 05/10/2021 22:22:03:

…

The more research I do, the clearer it becomes …

Not from where I'm sat! In software jargon, I fear you've become entangled in anti-patterns. Candidates are: Analysis Paralysis, Bicycle Shed, Over-engineering, Scope Creep, Accidental Complexity, Golden Hammer, Silver Bullet, and Wishful Thinking.

I short I see John has requirement conflicts that cannot be satisfied.

• Small Size
• Low Cost
• High Capability
• General Purpose
• Hobby versus Commercial

I suggest the problem isn't selecting tools, it's sorting out the requirement conflict. Requirements are important. Most obviously in this example, there isn't a small, cheap, high capability milling machine available. High-capability machines tend to hold their prices unless worn-out or damaged, in which case they aren't high-capability. Small, affordable mills are aimed squarely at genteel modelling – HO railways and so forth.

I suggest the most suspicious requirement is 'high-capability'. Stop looking for a Golden Hammer! Dump that, and a number of small machines become acceptable. Chinese, Proxxon, whatever, they will all do the job provided they're operated within their shortcomings. The user gets the job done by applying skill and patience rather than relying on the machine.

Compromise is almost universal on the forum. I don't know of any hobbyist rich enough to buy the best possible equipment: our budgets limit us to Far Eastern hobby machines and older second-hand gear, mostly manual. Even though they do all we need and much more, no hobbyist owns an 11-axis machine centre.

The Hobby versus Commercial issue also needs attention. If the goal is a commercial product, it's worth investing in. Development is a team game: lone inventors rarely succeed. Take advice. Pay someone else to make prototype parts: you do the design, they make it. Or raise the money to buy or hire the equipment and space needed. If the goal is commercial, different rules apply. Time is of the essence because someone else may be working on the same idea: first one to patent it wins. (Have you checked the idea isn't already patented?) Sell the car, mortgage the house, sell shares in the City, find a partner, put daughters on the street etc.

And once the item is in production marketing is even more a team sport than manufacture. James Watt found this: not enough to be a technical genius – his success only came after partnering with Matthew Boulton who knew how to organise, finance, and sell stuff.

Is the object to buy the best possible small mill at the lowest price for future fun, or is it to make a prototype? If the latter, compromise on the requirements or raise the cash. Be ruthless if the goal is a commercial product. Strict intellectual honesty is necessary because emotion badly fogs the issues. Worth writing a Business Case if not done already: working out how to make stuff is only one factor, and it's often the least difficult. Forcing oneself to think through all the risks and issues is always valuable, especially when setting priorities.

Metalwork for business is much harder than metalwork for fun. Don't assume they're the same!

Dave

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

One again SoD has nailed it!

If one trawled back through years of years of postings there have only a small number of forum members that consistently give honest, sound, unbiased and practical advice and replies (john Stevenson was my hero).

There is no 'like' button here (thank goodness) but Dave get my current vote.

Ian P

PS I wonder if I should have started this as a new topic

[Colin HeseltineParticipant @colinheseltine48622]

I must admit to having a Proxxon BFW 40/E Mill/drill, which I have had for 12 years or so. I was not using it for metal work. It was used for making 12th scale doll house furniture and also as a wood router. I have used it when drilling/milling small brass items where the high speed is quite useful. The X and Y axis work ok although as with most things there is backlash. I had intended to fit simple cheap DRO's to this never got round to it.

To move up a size where accuracy is desired then I use a Cowells B100 vertical mill. Although this does not have a quill I have not had a problem drilling with it. Because it is a knee mill the weight of the table and knee (have up to now) prevented any grabbing of drills when breaking through brass of steel material.

Anything bigger gets done on the big Gate PBM2000, which is a 3HP version of a Bridgeport mill (which replaced a Chester Super Lux which was giving me problems).

So in my case it is horses for courses. I appreciate not everyone can be in this situation.

I looked around for quite some time for the Cowells and in the end it came from an advert on this site. Luckily I saw and responded to the advert before anyone else and had to travel 150 odd miles each way to collect it. I would certainly recommend it as a nice well behaved small mill, albeit expensive. I have upgraded it with 3 axis DRO and I have fitted a hex drive to the upper handle and use a small palm sized cordless screwdriver to raise and lower the knee rapidly. Much kinder on the shoulder.

The other thing I like about the Cowells is with it on a suitable height table and sat on a chair you can get very close to the work being undertaken. Note I do use polycarbonate screens and safety glasses when working this close to the machine.

Colin

[Rod RenshawParticipant @rodrenshaw28584]

+1 for SODs analysis of the problem, though I don't understand quite all the terms and references he uses.

SOD has left out by accident, I think , John's other requirement – light weight. John has to be able to lift the mill off a shelf onto the table he uses as a bench and back again when he has finished, if I understand his situation correctly. Which requirement makes the task of locating something suitable even more challenging.

Rod

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

Dave/SOD

Yes, that is exactly what a model-maker would say, where you have something specific in mind that you need to build. Say a small steam engine or whatever, for which you have a specific design in mind.

And a business man would agree.

The answer that both people would give is that 100% definitely I should outsource everything. Each small job would cost say £50 to 150 and, particularly if postage is involved would take 1 to 2 weeks to get back. That way I would get it made accurately with minimal investment in either tooling or in wasted energy learning new skills.

And so I should definitely not buy any tools and certainly not any kind of milling machine!

However it is linear, "waterfall engineering" thinking.

J

Edited By John Smith 47 on 07/10/2021 11:40:29

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