(old) Proxxon BFW 36/E vs. (new) Proxxon BFW 40/E

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

Posted by Robert Butler on 29/09/2021 12:06:25:

The lathes website carries an image of the lathe motor attached to the mill. Put your hand out of bed! BUY THE UNIMAT so that we can all get some sleep!

Robert Butler

[EDIT: I see other members have posted whilst I was writing all of what follows!]

JasonB – yes I tried putting "unimat3 mill" into google, just now.
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22unimat3+mill%22
It yields precisely 3 results.

However "unimat 3 mill" ==> 6800 results

OK I've had a long look at the EMCO Unimat 3. I can see that it is a charming, super-compact, well-made… amazing bit of design. It also has an excellent spec (if you upgrade the motor) and the whole EMCO Unimat series still seem to have a bit of a cult following amongst hobbyists.

However, I can see a whole warren of rabbit holes opening up! You are asking me to buy something that was made between 1976 and 1990 – at least 30 years old, and no longer in production.

(ASIDE: If it really is so good, why is it no longer in production?)

Obviously being so old, it will of course have no technical support. Bearings are likely to need re-greasing and rubber belts probably will need to be replaced… sourcing accessories that match is likely to be will be tricky…

==> All-in-all, I can see it being a HUGE time-sink.

My main concerns:

1. Z-direction repeatability
Because the pillar is circular without a key slot of any sort, every time you loosen off the clamping screws in order to move the mill in the Z-axis (vertical), the whole thing can rotate around the pillar!
[Can one buy better pillars that DO have key-slots?]

2. Round Pillar
Given the huge lateral forces during milling operations and given the circular cross-section of the pillar, I am guessing you will need to clamp the thing extremely tight if mere friction will be enough to stop the mill from rotating around the pillar, no?

Presumably if you try to only mill directly to or from the pillar that would help, but that seems like an annoying constraint

3. Small point: No feed screw to wind it up and down with.

4. Milling table seems extremely small.

I am bit confused about the original "Unimat 3" range. Was this much larger milling table sold as a separate product? Also can one buy large milling tables that would be fitted to the "Unimat 3" from other suppliers?

Given the lack of other options, I'm not ruling the Unimat 3 out, however best guess is that it is a much better lathe than it is a milling machine and like I keep sayin' it is the latter that I actually want!

J

Edited By John Smith 47 on 29/09/2021 23:01:12

[Grindstone CowboyParticipant @grindstonecowboy]

Anyone suggested a surface grinder yet?

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

John Smith 47 said:

"If it really is so good, why is it no longer in production?"

That's a really good example of what's known as a false dichotomy.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by John Smith 47 on 29/09/2021 22:23:26:

Posted by Robert Butler on 29/09/2021 12:06:25:

The lathes website carries an image of the lathe motor attached to the mill. Put your hand out of bed! BUY THE UNIMAT so that we can all get some sleep!

Robert Butler

[EDIT: I see other members have posted whilst I was writing all of what follows!]

JasonB – yes I tried putting "unimat3 mill" into google, just now.
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22unimat3+mill%22
It yields precisely 3 results.

However "unimat 3 mill" ==> 6800 results
 

Oh Dear. You said you had not found a single Picture, I thought it would have been obvious that when you do that Google search you click the "IMAGE" tab and then get plenty of photos including ones with the motor attached to the mill. Thousands more as you scrol down the page!

Reason it is no longer made is that it would price itself out of the market if they tried to make it the same today, most people will just spend less on a larger imported machines making the potential market too small to be worth production.

Don't recall having problems with the head moving under milling loads provided you remember it's a light machine and to use light cuts.

Fine feed is done with an allen key in the dial but I have seen simple handwheels fitted around the socket as there is little load when adjusting height.

Always managed to line the head up OK and it's as easy to just slacken the clamp and slide it quickly up and down as cranking away on the dovetail column mills which take a lot more effort and time to raise & lower the heads

You bottom image is of the dedicated mill not the lathe with mill column as has been suggested but I see the item is now sold so you have missed out. I expect another forum member saw the link and jumped at the good deal.

Edited By JasonB on 30/09/2021 07:17:25

[John HinkleyParticipant @johnhinkley26699]

You can lead a horse to water ………………..

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

It was thinking more of the other saying, something to do with abusing a dead horse

Can't understand why John got 3 results and I get 268,000 using the same "unimat3 mill" search, maybe that slow computer again.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by JasonB on 30/09/2021 08:53:28:

[…]

Can't understand why John got 3 results and I get 268,000 using the same "unimat3 mill" search, maybe that slow computer again.

.

That’s easy, Jason:

John searched thus …

.

.

MichaelG.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Ah, maybe you could give him some Google and grammar lessons

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by JasonB on 29/09/2021 11:50:09:

Posted by John Smith 47 on 29/09/2021 11:37:18:

Robert Butler:

I still can't find a single photo of the Unimat 3 motor driving the mill.

How hard did you try looking, put "unimat3 mill" into google […]

.

John only did as instructed, Jason
 

Tricky stuff, Grammar 

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 30/09/2021 13:07:17

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I was quoting the text that I entered for my search, how should I have written it ?

He also entered "unimat 3 mill" for his own search (his inverted commas)

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

@Michael Gilligan
Re: Jean Greub Milling Machine
The link says: "Mill Machine without ground plate and motor 20Kg"
It certainly shows what is technically possible… As does (in some ways) the Unimat 3.
I can't find a Jean Greub for sale.

@Grindstone Cowboy
Re Surface grinder – Sounds too specialist. A significant part of spending money on this project is to end up with some general purpose tools that can be used on other projects.

@Bill Phinn
> That's a really good example of what's known as a false dichotomy.
WTF? I never said, never implied and never meant that it was a dichotomy.

@JasonB
I guess I should have said – yes, I did (eventually) find multiple photos of the motor on the grinder.

@JasonB – OK fair point. Mea culpa… Movin' too fast!
That said, had you meant me to include the double quotes in my search, exactly how would you have done your grammar?

Re why it is no longer manufactured, those reasons seem reasonable, although given how many people moan about the quality of the Proxxon kit, how many people are buying upgraded engines & spindles and how many fans there are of defunct EMCO kit, this may well be erroneous thinking. I may be in a market of one but I would have paid double or even TRIPPLE the price of an MF70 to buy a properly made MF70.

Yes, it's a slight shame that the Unimat 3 seems to have been sold. But there is no point in this horse drinking from an infected well or eating totally the wrong food.

Right now my requirement is not dead urgent. I shall soldier on with the MF70 and Ferrex belt & disk sander as best I can.

But I shall definitely keep an eye out for second hand EMCO Unimat 3s for sale. Where are the best websites to search?

J

PS There is a
"Emco Unimat Milling Machine – Watchmaker Tools – With Accessories" on sale on eBay for £1100. Looks perfect but this is well outside my budget. What do you think it will go for?

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 30/09/2021 12:58:51:

Posted by JasonB on 29/09/2021 11:50:09:

Posted by John Smith 47 on 29/09/2021 11:37:18:

Robert Butler:

I still can't find a single photo of the Unimat 3 motor driving the mill.

How hard did you try looking, put "unimat3 mill" into google […]

.

John only did as instructed, Jason

Tricky stuff, Grammar

…

Michael might mean syntax or semantics rather than grammar, but it may help internet search engine users to know there's a big difference between searching for

unimat3 mill

and

"unimat3 mill"

The first form helpfully opens the search up by looking for anything with unimat, unimat3, unimat 3, and/or mill in it. As this openness finds a lot of matches, the search engine uses other algorithms to put what the user is most likely to want on the front page. For example, pages that contain unimat3 and mill and have been read by many different users will be near the top, while unpopular pages that only mention mill once will be at the bottom.

Fuzzy searching mostly does a good job, but the method isn't perfect! Quite often users only want to see exact exact matches only. One way of specifying this is to put the search term inside quotes marks: the quotes tell the search engine to only return pages containing that exact phrase. In tight-mode the search engine may warn of typical user typos, which is why Google asked in this case 'Did you mean "unimat 3 mill"? (Yes!)

MEW or ME did an article recently about advanced search techniques: sorry I can't remember which. Worth reading when searching the internet for specific targets, which is a common requirement in technical subjects. There's a degree of art in it as well. Apart from knowing how to drive advanced search engine options, the way a query is assembled can make a big difference too. In the complicated world we live in getting the best out of search engines is yet another skill most of us don't have – common sense fails again!

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 30/09/2021 15:33:11

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by John Smith 47 on 30/09/2021 15:23:23:

I never said, never implied and never meant that it was a dichotomy.

It's part of the nature of logical fallacies that people commit them without being aware they're doing so. This instance is no exception.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 30/09/2021 15:31:44:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 30/09/2021 12:58:51:

Posted by JasonB on 29/09/2021 11:50:09:

Posted by John Smith 47 on 29/09/2021 11:37:18:

Robert Butler:

I still can't find a single photo of the Unimat 3 motor driving the mill.

How hard did you try looking, put "unimat3 mill" into google […]

.

John only did as instructed, Jason

Tricky stuff, Grammar

…

Michael might mean syntax or semantics rather than grammar, […]

.

Michael actually used the word to describe the inclusion [by Jason] of the suggested search terms within quotation marks … I see that as a matter of Grammar; but call it what you will, Dave.

The work-around for this would have been for Jason to write :

put "unimat3 mill" [without quotation marks] into google

… or some-such

MichaelG.

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

Posted by Bill Phinn on 30/09/2021 15:45:48:

Posted by John Smith 47 on 30/09/2021 15:23:23:

I never said, never implied and never meant that it was a dichotomy.

It's part of the nature of logical fallacies that people commit them without being aware they're doing so. This instance is no exception.

The question that I asked – about exactly why the product hasn't been made now for however many decades it is – was entirely reasonable and potentially relevant, and I did so with my eyes open and in the knowledge that the answer may well not materially affect my buying decision.

The real logical fallacy is that you appear to have thought that it might do so!

But go ahead, call the nature of my thinking whatever you like, if it makes you feel better. Just don't expect any name-calling to in any way affect my decision making. It won't.

OK enough. I'm not going to discuss logical fallacies any further.

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

PS There is a
"Emco Unimat Milling Machine – Watchmaker Tools – With Accessories" on sale on eBay for £1100. Looks perfect but this is well outside my budget. What do you think it will go for?

I have just heard back from the eBay seller. He says he had a Unimat mill sell last year for "£650 without a motor" and so now he wants £850 for it.

It may be a fair price(?), but I just don't have that sort of money. At a pinch I would have gone to £500 but no further. I think I'll just have to wait for a rustier one!

[At the risk of another False Equivalence, I could have bought x3.4 Proxxon MF70s for £850! ]

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by John Smith 47 on 30/09/2021 16:43:25:

[…]

… I could have bought x3.4 Proxxon MF70s for £850!

.

… or at least a hundred bags of Compost [or whatever took your fancy]

But surely you wouldn’t

MichaelG.

[Robert ButlerParticipant @robertbutler92161]

Moderators there is no solution to this issue and respectfully suggest the topic thread is closed

Robert Butler

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 30/09/2021 16:50:32:

Posted by John Smith 47 on 30/09/2021 16:43:25:

[…]

… I could have bought x3.4 Proxxon MF70s for £850!

.

… or at least a hundred bags of Compost [or whatever took your fancy]

But surely you wouldn’t

MichaelG.

Correct. But if poo is your thing, you could also I get x9.5 crappy Aldi/Ferrex Belt & Disk Sanders!

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

Posted by Robert Butler on 30/09/2021 17:00:13:

Moderators there is no solution to this issue and respectfully suggest the topic thread is closed

Robert Butler

Up to you. Does the existence of this thread cause inconvenience?

I have learned a lot, but if so I'm happy shut up.

Edited By John Smith 47 on 30/09/2021 17:13:26

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

 

One more thing…

>>>
Posted by John Smith 47 on 29/09/2021 22:23:26

1. Z-direction repeatability

Because the pillar is circular without a key slot of any sort, every time you loosen off the clamping screws in order to move the mill in the Z-axis (vertical), the whole thing can rotate around the pillar!
[Can one buy better pillars that DO have key-slots?]

>>>

For anyone interested in using EMCO Unimats for any serious milling, I thought this was interesting.

This guy obviously has the exact same concerns that I had, about the difficulty of re-centering after you change the vertical height if you run out of quill travel, due to the lack of any form of key in the round column, so he set about cutting a slot himself and added a dog point set screw.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwI3a3sEIWA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwI3a3sEIWA

** Part 2 **
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQY2z33qxRg

** Part 3 **
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-KuOYzbfxs

Nice work. 

J

Edited By John Smith 47 on 01/10/2021 00:08:40

[Pete.Participant @pete-2]

I'd be surprised if that arrangement gave 0.5mm repeatability, you've got slop between the dog point and keyway, slop in the thread of the screw, depends what you think is acceptable for your purposes.

I think if the column had been scored lightly with a pointed milling cutter of some description, or in a shaper, then a mark on the clamp for alignment, you could repeat the position by eye as well, if not better.

[Andy CarlsonParticipant @andycarlson18141]

I'd have thought it less likely that one would run out of Z travel when milling.

Drilling with progressively increasing diameters (and therefore drill lengths) on the other hand are very likely to require the head to be moved further up the column. I've found that the resulting loss of position is a pain. Likewise, drilling and then using a centre to keep a tap perpendicular will have the same issue.

[John Smith 47Participant @johnsmith47]

Posted by Pete. on 01/10/2021 02:28:18:

I'd be surprised if that arrangement gave 0.5mm repeatability, you've got slop between the dog point and keyway, slop in the thread of the screw, depends what you think is acceptable for your purposes.

I think if the column had been scored lightly with a pointed milling cutter of some description, or in a shaper, then a mark on the clamp for alignment, you could repeat the position by eye as well, if not better.

Pete, Agreed. Although I think that rather than let the keyway rattle one could gently rotating the milling head each to to aligning with one of the edges of the slop. Maybe that would help.

But was he right to use dog point? Wouldn't V at the bottom of the slot (plus a V point on the screw) help centre it?

Andy, agreed. e.g. If one does the usual thing of starting with a (short stubby) centre drill before then using a larger drill the problem appears immediately. And of course if one doesn't have a separate machine for drilling then one is likely to be doing a lot of drilling on this mill!

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

With a drill chuck capacity of 8mmmax and the use of stub drills you can easily spot drill and drill upto 8mm and still get a hole the full 25mm depth of the quill travel without having to move the head. Any drilling above that diameter can be done using the lathe 3-jaw in place of the drill chuck and either stub drills with shortened shanks or plunge cutting with milling cutters upto when you start to stall the machine.

[Author]

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