Officialdom – bah!

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

The Bank sent a letter addressed to the club, ( not me) at my address this week.  As Treasurer, they normally address Statements to me followed by the club's name.

”Tax Residency Self-Certification Form for Entities."  13 pages of crap questions aimed at weeding out dodgy company directors, I think.

A 2 page list of Frequently Asked Questions, headed "Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act(FATCA) and Common Reporting Standard (CRS)"

Covering 2 page letter containing a threat, do it or we'll pass the buck to taxman along with comments that if help is needed, seek independent advice as we don't offer it. In other words, if you can't cope, find someone who can, at your expense because we don't want to know.

I won't deal with it, that's why club's have a Secretary to deal with 'significant correspondence.'

All those questions which basically don't apply to my (un-limited) club. Dread to think how much extra bumf would be involved if we incorporated which a few inactive members wanted in the past. My reply was if that's what they insist upon, find another mug, sorry, Treasurer. It's only a hobby for me, not back to work.

I wonder if any other clubs have had this rubbish imposed upon them? Do the ME and MEW Editors know? Do the club federations know about all this nonsense?

John

Edited By DMB on 01/09/2022 15:29:39

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Don't be too hard on them.

They need the work, and it provides work for the lumber, paper making,printing and distribution industries.

F A Qs never include the question that I want to ask, and there is never anything that will help answer the question.

It seems that no Institution can send just a one page letter, it has to include four other pages of Terms and Conditions, Complaints Procedures, Privacy Policies and so on.

No doubt driven either by fear of litigation, or a legal requirement, all to cause needless waste, paid for by the customer..

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

I act as treasurer for a club run by my wife, it is a group of mostly retired ladies who meet fortnightly for craft and social gatherings, the club has been meeting for 22 years and in that time has always banked with the same high street bank, their annual turnover is just over a thousand pounds. A couple of weeks ago I received a six page form to fill in asking stupid questions such as how much overseas trade we carry out and other equally ridiculous questions. The form also required all the present signatories to the account to provide evidence of identity which needed to be countersigned by a solicitor, evidence of identity was listed as passport or driving licence, how many retired people in their seventies and eighties still have valid driving licences or passports. All the signatories to the account had already proved their identities when they were initially appointed. The purpose of the form was to identify and tackle money laundering, my thoughts on this subject are why are the banks harassing retired persons clubs when they are daily handling millions of pounds of dirty money from the city of London. The form threatened that failure to comply with the requirements of the form would affect the continuation of the bank account, I filled in the areas of the form that I considered reasonable and left the rest blank, if they close the account then the club will resort to a tin box under the bed for holding any monies. It seems that banks are becoming more and more obstructive to ordinary customers. Dave W

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

This might help: **LINK**

Entity Tax Residency Self-certification form

.

As Treasurer of a small Society, I have already resorted to the ‘Tin under the bed’ approach

… this was prompted by our Building Society informing me that they no longer offer ‘Club Accounts’ and suggesting that I take our business elsewhere.

MichaelG.

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

Dave W, Michael G,

Thanks for confirming that you have received what sounds like 'my' form.' My club' has around 55 members, small as miniature loco clubs go. We can't just shove the Dosh under the bed, we need a means of paying EDF for the elec., Member and public liability Insurance(£2008+ this year), Alarm company, Southern Fed subs., Business Stream/Southern Water, Rent to the council for land and track, clubhouse and storage shed and rent for another venue for evening meetings. All paid by Direct Debit. Quite a few members now pay by Faster Payment. Our subs are about average, the Dad's and repairs/renewals paid for by passenger fares. Above seems common to all similar clubs.

Howard,

Quite agree. Seems likely that every commercial bank customers are going to be clobbered with answering junk mail like this, regardless of size and all the time the banks continue to get their hands dirty with the filthy lucre from around the world.

John (hacked off!)

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Nice link Michael well done you

Thing is:

a naughty person would simply lie on the form and send it back to the bank

The only people with real responsibility for these things are the revenue

This form is basically to ensure your entity can keep a bank account so you can "do bank stuff" so it needs to be returned, preferably by recorded delivery IMO

If you want to launder billions through your club account I believe a NILP will do the job

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-61710398

Edited By Ady1 on 01/09/2022 19:01:25

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

At least the bank isn't asking you to pay to give them this information. If you were a registered society, you'd have to send a return every year to the FCA telling them exactly the same info as last year, in fact when it was a paper form I used to photocopy the previous year's and change the date. For this we had to cough up I think £55 and send the form to that nice cheap office accommodation in Canary Wharf. It might all have changed for the better since I resigned as hon sec, but I doubt it. It's all done on line nowadays, so copying it won't work, I wonder how they would react if you just answered 'same as last year'

[Barry Smith 4Participant @barrysmith4]

Hi, I run a limited company with the same bank for the last 14 years then I was asked by the bank to fill in similar forms to you with the threat of closing my buisness account. You would think they should be chasing those that have committed fraud. They can see that I don't trade internationally from their records.

Barry

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

We never had this problem when we were in the EU.

:O)

[NealebParticipant @nealeb]

Don't know why you guys are complaining. It's fraud protection mechanisms like this that have completely prevented any scammers from opening bank accounts into which their ill-gotten gains can be transferred and why we can continue to completely trust the banks to never allow any fake accounts to be opened in future.

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

Duncan,

The form was hard copy but at least they supplied a pre-paid envelope to return form!

Many optional answers suggest NPO -Non Profit Organisation. We produce an Annual Income & Expenditure Statement, showing an excess of Income over Expenditure or an excess of Expenditure over Income. Balance added to, or deducted from, Reserves. Simples! None of the club's that I belong to make very much excess Income so would not be of interest to the taxman. The form's last page includes a declaration (of course!) as to it's accuracy and truthfulness but with the let out, "to the best of my knowledge and belief", with signature. Up to 3 "Controlling Persons" giving name, DOB, Capacity, Residential Address and up to 3 Countries ofTax Residency, for each of the 3 Controlling Persons. They also want the relevant TIN (TAX Identification Number) or give a reason for not having one and there is a choice of 4 reasons. None appears to fit our circumstances – (A) country of tax residency does not issue TINS, (B)Country of TR doesn't require a TIN to be collected by Domestic Law, (C)Have applied for one and awaiting issue (plus supply within 30 days), so can't lie over that one – get caught out! (D) Controlling Person is a minor+ not issued with a TIN. Now do you see reason for being hacked off! I would answer B in each case. Staff checking everything filled in may only give it a cursory glance and miss the 'error', if there is one.

My job description, if you like, is based upon the title, 'Treasurer.' The club has a Secretary to deal with 'significant correspondence', so form will be passed on.

John

Edited By DMB on 01/09/2022 21:21:04

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by DMB on 01/09/2022 21:16:46:

….

My job description, if you like, is based upon the title, 'Treasurer.' The club has a Secretary to deal with 'significant correspondence', so form will be passed on.

…

Not sure why the poor old club Secretary gets lumbered with this! The person responsible for Bank matters when I was a club treasurer was me. My sympathies though – not an easy job, especially now they're cracking down on money laundering and other fraud.

If it helps, I'm fairly sure in the UK our TIN is the National Insurance Number.

Dave

[Colin WhittakerParticipant @colinwhittaker20544]

While working as a standalone limited liability consultant for a few years (after retiring) I had to provide much of the above information on an annual basis despite my claims that nothing had changed from the previous years. The question that tickled me was the request for an organogram of the organisation for which I supplied a picture of yours truly with my job title (I think I was the director). In the end HSBC got too difficult about the US regulatory risk of banking my tiddly company and I became properly retired.

Before anyone says, "Ah but you need two directors for a company!" My company was registered in the Seychelles.

My Professor at University had a consulting company in the UK. His company was similarly small and so to fulfill the requirement for a second director he made his wife one. He said the requirement for the directors to meet at least once a year was generally performed in the bath with a bottle of wine.

My condolences to all the treasurers.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Bureaucracy for bureaucracy's sake.- one of the primary aims of government to create jobs for themselves.
The 'money laundering' excuse really irks when it blankets everyone instead of simply being targetted at more sizeable accounts or with significant money throughputs and checks on multiple accounts to similar names and addresses…. the sort of things computers really are good for if programmed competently – another thing gov isn't; good at.

pgk

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

Thank you Dave. I suspected thatmay be what's wanted. Foreigners arriving here are directed to the Jobcentre plus where they're issued with a NINO from where they can start their claim, dole, etc.

As I understand it, one needs similar in USA before you can open a savings account

John

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

"Soft targets" don't employ accountants.

Regards Ian.

[Robert ButlerParticipant @robertbutler92161]

Posted by Colin Whittaker on 02/09/2022 01:55:20:

Before anyone says, "Ah but you need two directors for a company!" My company was registered in the Seychelles.

Correction, this is not a requirement.

Robert Butler

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Making things not apply to small companies isn't as easy as it sounds. Many years ago UK govt exempted companies with a small turnover from some tax. Small businessmen I knew just registered more little companies so that each one had less than the threshold. That said when I was a one man Ltd company I tried to do my own accounts including Companies House (I think) return. One question I didn't understand so I rang them up:

Can you explain?

No

Does that mean you don't understand either?

Yes

So why am I filling it in?

So that the company shareholders will have the information

Hang on, I am the shareholders, who dreamed up this rubbish?

We were advised by consultant accountants

Need I carry on, get an accountant to set up a system so complicated only an accountant can do it. I had to do over a weeks work to pay the accountant because its not tax deductible.

[Robert ButlerParticipant @robertbutler92161]

Posted by duncan webster on 02/09/2022 14:24:25:

I had to do over a weeks work to pay the accountant because its not tax deductible.

?????

Robert Butler

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Looks like I've remembered incorrectly, accountant fees are deductible, but I still had to pay over £800 to fill in unintelligible forms, taking info I provided and translating it into accountant speak.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

I wonder what the designers of the bumph would say if you simply wrote "N/A" against incomprehensible questions, then if challenged tell them it is incomprehensible to the sole-trader so obviously applies only to very large companies with £umpteen-M turnovers and many institutional shareholders.

.

When my previously-State owned employer was sold off the new entity gave us employees each a block of shares with an option to buy more. The allegedly-explanatory booklet was obviously written by stock-brokers for stock-brokers, so I gave up on Page One, and ever since simply welcome the modest little nest-egg (tax-paid) my holding returns each year.

Money sums should be simple, but it is too easy and profitable for the very-numerate semi-illiterates who run the money-trade to make finances as complicated as possible, even impossible for we outsiders to understand..

.

One of the best rejoinders I have read, to bureaucrats trying to bully anyone with jargon, was from an American whose child brought home a letter copied to all parents. It excitedly described in florid, pseudo-intellectual twaddle, some new educational policy in that school.

The father wrote back, giving his c.v. as a professional linguist fluent in about 3 European languages and with some knowledge of others, but –

"… I have no idea what you are talking about. Have you?"

[Harry WilkesParticipant @harrywilkes58467]

Maybe take a link out of a guy's book that worked for me some years back, when he was sent a form he would firstly he would send whoever had sent him the form asking loads them loads of questions name, rank, address and phone numbers, age., why did they want the information, would the information be private or sold etc you can see where this is going I do remember it was 5 A4 pages and it was surprising how many he never heard from again

H

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

A teacher I knew said he was bombarded with questionnaires for no clear purpose from County Hall. Eventually he simply ignored any form of no obvious help or benefit to his work.

He said he threw away number of papers no-one had pestered him to answer – if they'd not done so they can't have been important in the first place.

I have just completed a gov.uk NHS Covid test result. A bit long-winded but very simple. I reckon the NHS (and other Government agencies) could make a mint training commercial software designers to create products that suit all we users having the temerity not to have a PhD in computing!

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 06/09/2022 20:13:14:

… I reckon the NHS (and other Government agencies) could make a mint training commercial software designers to create products that suit all we users having the temerity not to have a PhD in computing!

 

.

An interesting observation, Nigel … but I know from personal experience that much work of this sort is contracted-out to commercial firms.

That said, I did recently spot this interesting document:

**LINK**

https://design-system.service.gov.uk/get-started/

Which perhaps suggests that the Government agencies are more in control than they were.

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 06/09/2022 21:06:31

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