Novice beginner

[Martin Johnson 1Participant @martinjohnson1]

Probably a bit late for advice to Kerbtrawler, but a very important consideration not mentioned before is:

 

HOW ARE YOU GOING TO TRANSPORT IT?

 

In 6″ scale you are looking at a big plant trailer and a four track  or trannie van to pull it.

 

In 4″ scale a sturdy trailer (rated at least 750 kg) and a reasonable size car to pull it.  You could legally just about use a trailer without brakes, but I wouldn’t recommend it.  Quite a few of my rally mates put the engine in a trannie van and then pull a caravan for accommodation.  You are going to need the caravan if you want to get the max from steam rallies.

There is also the question are you licensed to drive with a large trailer? – the law has been changed within the last few years.

 

3″ scale becomes a lot more manageable and an unbraked trailer from the likes of Halfords will suffice.  It would probably go in the back of the car with the chimney off.

 

2″ scale is OK for going in the car, but will need ramps etc to get up into the car.   A small trailer would probably be easier and keep the oil & soot out of the family motor.

 

Best wishes,

 

Martin

[Martin Johnson 1Participant @martinjohnson1]

Think I have ended up with a post on the wrong thread.

Sorry

Martin

[Martin Johnson 1Participant @martinjohnson1]

Probably a bit late for advice to Kerbtrawler, but a very important consideration not mentioned before is:

 

HOW ARE YOU GOING TO TRANSPORT IT?

 

In 6″ scale you are looking at a big plant trailer and a four track  or trannie van to pull it.

 

In 4″ scale a sturdy trailer (rated at least 750 kg) and a reasonable size car to pull it.  You could legally just about use a trailer without brakes, but I wouldn’t recommend it.  Quite a few of my rally mates put the engine in a trannie van and then pull a caravan for accommodation.  You are going to need the caravan if you want to get the max from steam rallies.

There is also the question are you licensed to drive with a large trailer? – the law has been changed within the last few years.

 

3″ scale becomes a lot more manageable and an unbraked trailer from the likes of Halfords will suffice.  It would probably go in the back of the car with the chimney off.

 

2″ scale is OK for going in the car, but will need ramps etc to get up into the car.   A small trailer would probably be easier and keep the oil & soot out of the family motor.

 

Best wishes,

 

Martin

[TrevorhParticipant @trevorh]

Hi Martin, thanks for the comments about moving the beast.

Luckily I am about 4 years away from having to look at that aspect. I am still building the front wheels, so a long way to go yet……..

 

cheers

[StovepipeParticipant @stovepipe]

A “trannie” van sounds quite intriguing.!

 

Dennis

[TrevorhParticipant @trevorh]

Hi All, sorry for not posting recently – too much work and not on the traction engine unfortunately, but I’m back now and have just finished machining the front axal

One good thing about traveling around the country working in different places , as soon as you mention the project you can alway get hold of large quantities of off cuts from the work shops, this is where the front axal has been obtained from – large lump of BMS 1″ round bar, took quite a lot of machining down to the 3/4″ body and 1/2″ at the bearing ends but it was good lathe practice especially because it required the use a travelling steady, which until this point I had never used since purchasing my Warco, And yes you guessed it, it kept getting in the way, so I have modified the position of it ( moved it further forward of the Tool post ) this means that as the cutter comes into contact with the material,  the steady is already in contact with the bar.

 

Next needs to be the bearings, again free off cuts obtained.

I’ll let you know how I get on, No I haven’t forgotten about the riveting but I need to progress these parts first.

 

cheers

[TrevorhParticipant @trevorh]

Ok The bronze bearings were quite straight forward to machine, played a little with the running fit/tolerance.

Now machining the remainder of the parts that will hold/fix the position of the hubs

 

Once I have all of these then I will have run out of excuses not to start the riveting

 

cheers

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

So you will have them all rivited up for next months meeting then!!

 

Good to hear you are making progress.

 

Jason

Edited By JasonB on 23/07/2010 15:55:17

[TrevorhParticipant @trevorh]

NOT A HAPPY BUNNY

I am sure some one said somewhere beware of the Plastow drawings……

Now I know why, just thought I would try and peice together the main parts of the front wheel hub assembly, oh dear…… the drawings are suppose to be 1:1 scale so where its a bad copy I measured the distances, no problem there but I rather stupidly assumed that who ever had originally drawn them could add up……errrm NO

 

Got to remake the front axal and the bearings again because I am short by 1/8″ at both ends and same on the bearings

 

Just goes to show you check and check again

Luckily I have spare material to remake the bearings, hope to visit a couple of companies next week where I can pick up a new peice for the axal

Oh well back to the drawing board or Not

 

I will of course keep you posted

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

There are a few other errors listed here

[TrevorhParticipant @trevorh]

Thanks Jason, I guess I am going to be checking all of the dimensions from here on in, I will start a list of errors and probably post these at a later date See you all at the next meeting

 

cheers

[Sam StonesParticipant @samstones42903]

Hello kerbtrawler,

I haven’t seen these drawings, nor have I read the whole thread, but did someone say that the drawings were to scale, or did I miss something?

One thing’s for sure, “DO NOT SCALE” should be printed at the top of every drawing!

Or has that statement gone out of the window for some reason?

Irrespective of any draughting errors, unless its drawn to scale on Mylar and then printed on Mylar, there’s a really good chance that not only will the print be out of scale, but the aspect ratio of the printing paper may have changed during printing. There is also the possibility that the original drawing can skid or creep with respect to the printing paper during their passage through the print machine.

May I suggest that years spent in DO’s, has taught me to `never scale a drawing’.

 

Good luck,

 

Sam

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The other thing is that a dimension may get changed but the actual part won’t get redrawn so may still be the wrong size.

 

J

[TrevorhParticipant @trevorh]

Great thanks Jason, Sam,

So basically what your saying is 

I cannot trust the scale, drawing information or the measurements (when given), so my question is this

 

WHAT IS THE POINT OF THE DRAWINGS OTHER THAN TO GIVE AN IDEA OF WHAT THE PARTS LOOK LIKE!!!!

 

Why isn’t there a warning about these drawings, its not as though they are cheap…..

 

Oh well thats got that off my chest, Back to the drawing board – in more ways than one LOL

 

I am now resigned to reproduce each part on Autocad to check the various assemblies which I suppose is not a bad thing, helps keep me upto speed with my cad

 

Have nearly finished replacing the parts that were wrong

 

Hope to post better news soon on the progression

[TrevorhParticipant @trevorh]

Well as previously mentioned Good news, I have started to assemble the spokes onto the wheel and hub assembly, What I have done is to clamp the assembly together and drill just the middle hole and secure it with a 3mm screw and nut.

 

my next issue is what is the best way to secure the other end of the spoke, do I rely on epoxy resin or do I drill/tap/countersink with screws on all of the spokes

 

Also how many screws are used to secure the cover plates over the spokes?, I have seen that 3 are used to secure the Brass outer cap.

 

Still pushing to have something to bring to the show…..

 

cheers all

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Yes use a CSK screw in each spoke end.

 

3 or 4 CSK screws will do for the inner & outer hubs depending on the number of spokes you have so they fall between spokes, the inside ones can be filled with JB Weld or similar, the fronts can go under the hubcap flange is there is room if not put them towards the outside and fill.

 

Not long until you will be riviting!!!

 

Jason

[WeldsolParticipant @weldsol]

Hi Kerbcrawler

I have some Burrell parts left over from my build if your interested or want to chat about Burrells send me a PM

 

Paul

also you can see my Burrell at http://modeleng.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=tractiongeneral&action=display&thread=5360&page=1

[TrevorhParticipant @trevorh]

Hi everyone, Sorry I haven’t posted for quite a while but my work load has been crazy these last couple of months, So an Update

 

I have finished the front axal and the hub for the front wheel, the spokes are all ready for final fitting as are the cover and locating pin, BUT I still cannot master this Bl***dy riveting

 

It really is driving me crazy, so tonight I am modifying a battery hammer drill along with a spare rivet snap to see what results I can achieve, I have also recently obtained an oxy/acet 1/4 size bottle set so my intention is to preheat the rivets and them use the hammer action to see if I can get a somewhere half descent result.

 

I will of course keep you posted, and thanks to Weldsol i know have a whole load of castings to fall back on

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I don’t think a cordless will have the weight behind it, I have seen several people use SDS+ drills which pack more of a punch, they can be set to hammer only and the chisels can be machined into a snap.

 

Heating is not very effective on the smaller sizes, the heat just gets sucked away by the mass of the wheel or snap. You may have more luck using copper rivits, thats what I used on the Fowler due to the alloy rims, about 4-5 blows and the head is formed.

 

If all else fails have a look at Julia’s latest few posts on TT for an alternative to rivit bashin’

 

J

[mgjParticipant @mgj]

I think you are right Jason – the mass of the rivet is so tiny compared to fullsize that you are not going to gain anything except inconvenience going that route. – and hot fingers.

 

Do you have, or can you borrow a compressor – in which case the air hammer, which is about the size of a smallish hand held drill, solves all problems. I’ve just done chunks of the chassis of my Metre Maid in preference to bolting as per the drawings, precisely because it is just so easy, fast and painless, and you get a good double headed rivet every time. Above all it only requires 2 hands..

 

There is a problem with copper rivets in ali and iron, however convenient they are to bash. 2 reactive dissimilar metals equals electrolytic corrosion over time. Be ok if its kept well painted I daresay, but it is something to watch for.

Edited By mgj on 07/02/2011 22:38:34

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

Why not use aluminium rivits? you then only have two dissimilar metals rather than three. The copper would be OK, the aluminium surounding it would corrode. ian S C

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The reason for using copper is that the rims are alloy castings and the Tees get too distorted or even split if you try and use iron rivits. Copper is also whats suggested in the build manuals of the alloy rimmed engines such as Minnie, Fowler A7 and I think the Z7S ploughing engines.

 

Alloy would be a possibility though they are likely to be a bit weaker, I did use alloy ones for the dummy tie plates.

 

J

[TrevorhParticipant @trevorh]

Ok I tried with the copper rivets and had reasonable results, first heating, then used the dolly, finally finished off with the hammer drill, quite time consuming but definatelty on the right track

Because of the amount of dissimilar metal contact, I’m not that concerned with the electrolytic reaction, if it becomes an issue it can always be cancelled out by placing a small charge through the body, but to be fair its the least of my concerns for now.

 

By Mistake I made a rivet with a flat head on 1 side and domed on the other – is this acceptable or is it more likley to shear under stress?

 

I will see if I can improve on the results and shorten the process again tonight

 

cheers and thanks for your supportive comments

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Its unlikely to fail but if its bugging you leave it until last and then drill it out and redo this time making sure it does not jump out of the dolly.

 

J

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi KerbT,

 

This may be a silly question, please don’t be offended, but are you using the correct riveting methods?

 

when cold riveting with any type of rivet but especially with soft iron rivets there are three essentials:

 

One – the rivet must be cut to the correct length;

 

two – the the rivet should be clenched and the head formed roughly by peening with the ball peen of an engineers hammer (leaving a planished effect) before using the ‘snap’ (what you term a dolly);

 

and finally the head is neatened by use of the snap, usually a single blow is enough. Of courst the rivet must be supported as well by a second snap!

 

If you are trying to close the rivet and form the head with the snap (dolly) on it’s own you will almost always tend to bend the rivet before the head is formed. I taught many young students to successfully cold rivet and it should be quick and simple once the technique is learned.

 

Hi Sam,

 

Hope you are ok? 

 

When I worked in the DO all of our drawings carried the legends “DO NOT SCALE” and “IF IN DOUBT ASK” as a warning to all.  It was impressed on us that it was the written dimensions that were the important part of the drawing and that sometimes it needed a bit of adding or subtraction and the use of simple logic to arrive at certain ones.

 

Regards to all,

 

Terry

Edited By Terryd on 09/02/2011 11:54:49

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