Novice beginner

[TrevorhParticipant @trevorh]

I am toying with the idea of attempting to build a Burrell traction engine.

 

Where do I start, I am not a million miles from M J Engineers

 

any advice would be most welcome

[TrevorhParticipant @trevorh]

advice

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Do you have any previous model engineering experiance, and if so what machines do you have available.

 

I’m Building MJs 2″ Fowler, (you can see pics in MJ’s Gallery section) and have found the quality of parts and castings to be very good, also Alan is nice to deal with. I would suggest you pop in and have a look at one of Alans finished engines and cast your eyes over the plans. If you are still tempted the get a set of drawings and the build manual (or the back issues of EIM that covered the build) The good thing with the Burrell is that the wheels come cast to finished size so the largest dia you are likely to need to turn is the flywheel and final drive, even these can be done by MJ if your machines are not upto capacity

 

You could also make a day of it by going to the Amberley traction engine rally this comming weekend, MJ will have their stand there and the original owners of MJ are usually there as well with some engines. There will also be around another  70 Miniatures  in steam.

 

The only thing to bear in mind with the 2″ Burrel is that its a bit small for grass rally fields but will pull you OK on tarmac.

 

There are a couple of people with this engine on Traction Talk forum who will help, just ask in the model section

 

Jason

Edited By JasonB on 14/09/2009 16:23:07

[TrevorhParticipant @trevorh]

That sounds really useful

 

I have a warco GH1224 lathe with all the usual bits along with a vertical mill

All manual as I’m old school engineering.

also have the equipment if soldering or welding is needed

 

other than that no experience what so ever other than 30 years in engineering from the oil refinery to refrig and now printing industry.

 

My wifes family name is Burrell – not sure if there is a connection hence the need to build this type/style of engine

 

cheers

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

You should be fine then

 

There isn’t really any need for welding unless you want to roll your own rims and weld in the flanges. There is a fair bit of silver soldering particularly if you make your own boiler.

 

There are other bigger Burrell models about but if you don’t intend on using it a lot on the rally field or doing road runs then the 2″ GMT is a nice model.

 

Jason

[TrevorhParticipant @trevorh]

one last daft question

 

what do you mean by a 2″ GMT?

 

cheers

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

2″ GMT – 2 inch Gold Medal Tractor, so named because the 4nhp tractor won a gold medal in the 1908 royal automobile club trial, subsequent engines were given the “Gold Medal” titlea Gold Medal in the 1908 Royal Automobile Club Triaa Gold Medal in the 1908 Royal Automobile Club Trial.

 

Not to be confused with a 6 inch GMT 

 

 

Jason

[mgjParticipant @mgj]

Gawd, with a 1224 gap bed. You could build a 4″ engine if you wanted!!!! (Flywheel you’d have to get done outside. My next engine is a 4″ Foster, and that will be built on a 1237 gap bed, though the 37 bit isn’t important, and a reasonable mill)

 

Why, if I may ask, go to 2″. The smaller it is the more difficult, simply because things flex, and are more difficult and fiddly to hold, screws and threads are smaller. 

 

You’ll recover the cost difference if any, in unbroken taps.  

 

Go for a 3″ if you can? Pull you along fine, and easier to make for my money. There are several 3″ Burrells around, (but the Little Samson is very cheap for castings and has cast wheels which saves a lot of time)

 

For me, the most important thing is good drawings – ones that are error free. I know nothing about MJ, and wouldn’t presume to criticise or suggest anything in that direction, but do make sure that whoever’s engine you go for, the darn drawings are fully swept up

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Meyrick, I was not suggesting the 3″ little samson (though it is a good small engine to start with ) but Edward also does the GMT in 6″ scale which is not a lot larger than some of the big 4″ engines, just scroll to the bottom of the page I linked to.

 

Jason

[TrevorhParticipant @trevorh]

Thanks gentlemen,

I can see I am going to have to give this quite some thought, as to what size do I go for,

 

I must admit that for practical reasons the bigger the better, Being of the old school ( mostly swinging big hammers ) or heavy engineering I am not too comfortable about using such small drills,taps and dies in the BA range, I guess this comes with experience.

 

Obviously I need to off set this against the costs involved with a larger machine.

 

Why is nothing straight forward!!!!

 

I think my best course of action is to gather information on the various types/sizes against cost  and practicality and what I am capable of achieveing

 

Cheers

[mgjParticipant @mgj]

Jason you are right – I think the 6″GMT that was highlighted in ME a month or so ago is Edwards.

 

I had just though in my own mind that 6″ was a bit big, but then I suppose it depends on the size of the prototype. Also most firms supplying castings offer machining., which can get one out of a hole.

 

Perhaps also for Kerbtrawler,  – you might satisfy your family interest by making any TE, and then naming it (various firms do custom nameplates) after which ever family member seems to offer the best advantage? This could offer a good balance between cost, convenience and personal survival?

 

Edward is cheap (very) on castings and (most important) P&P. Also drawings, and the drawings are sound.

 

The Little Samsons in  any scale are very simple engines, and with the cast wheels, and cast differential and bevel gears (cheap!!) they are not difficult to build.

 

The down side is that once you get into 3″ engines really you are looking at a steel boiler, and you have to start to manipulate 10mm/1/2″ plate. Which means for most of us getting a boiler built.  Which is going to cost £1500 plus the vodka and tonic. The advantage is that someone is making a bit for you over the 1 year delivery so you can save while tackling other castings and fabrications, and it is all properly EU certified and made to drawing so it all fits. (Bell boilers usual disclaimer) That’s what I did.

 

 

On the smaller engines, yes you can make your own (satisfaction) boiler, but there is the fiddle factor, and the horsepower factor when built. Boiler cost – I’d doubt, if you bought a copper flanged kit, and took in the cost of the rods and gas, that there would be as much in it as you might think. 

 

I can say for sure that a 3″ LS can be made on a 1237 spinning 17″ in the gap. All of it, including machining the cast rear wheels. I did all my milling, including cutting all the drive gears on a Dore Westbury mill and a GHT versatile dividing head. (The setup doing a 9″ 8DP final drive pinion was a bit creative but it worked and its accurate)  You could do a 4″ LS on a 12xx lathe, but you would have to get the rear wheels machined (18″ dia) or make spoked versions which are in the drawings.Flywheel will fit. Smallest thread – probably 4mm. I’ve used 3mm extensively on the 3″LS.

 

And a 2″ sized engine in a 6″ lathe. You don’t think that might be a little brave. Some of those bits could be a little tiny compared with an 8″ chuck. You might have a little difficulty actually finding the bits after parting off.

 

So there is a quite a lot of cogitation in there. Look at the Little Samson site, and also Live Steam Models, and Brunel and Blackgates. MJ of course. Bridport Castings (Foundries?) – they do the Plastow Burrells. A lot of them have been made

 

Be nice to know what you finally decide.

 

 

 

 

Edited By meyrick griffith-jones on 15/09/2009 12:45:18

Edited By meyrick griffith-jones on 15/09/2009 12:52:06

Edited By meyrick griffith-jones on 15/09/2009 12:53:18

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

We were discussing first traction engines over on Traction Talk a couple of days ago. A professionally made steel boiler for a 3″ little samson is just under £1k and the 4″ just over. That compares quite faverably to a copper boiler, I paid £1600 for my Fowler one about 18months ago.

 

Though if Kerbtrawler is a coded welder it could be very economic to make a self build boiler but it may be harder to sell on the engine at a later date.

 

If you want to read a bit more about the 6″ GMT have a look at Julia Olds site and if you can get down to amberley at the weekend that will give you a chance to see the size of models in the flesh and talk to some builders.

 

Jason

[mgjParticipant @mgj]

Little over 1K Jason! Unless prices havee dropped a bit recently. Promise. Still it makes the point that boiler costs are not a huge influence either way.

 

4″ Foster is about £2k, and 8 months delivers. LS was about a year – thank God!

Edited By meyrick griffith-jones on 15/09/2009 15:26:22

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

This is what Edward said re prices

 

“The boiler in steel for a LS in 3″ scale is a shade under £1,000 and in 4” a shade over; but all things being equal essentially the same price. I always think you get much better value for money with a 4” engine and the sum total of all your efforts is obviously a better passenger hauler.”

 

The rest of the thread can be read here

 

Jason

[mgjParticipant @mgj]

Well then that would explain why I have an invoice for £1819.90, including vat and delivery? I did check the 3 listed suppliers and all were about the same. I went to Bell Boilers in the end, and I will say that it was spot on to drawing,  delivered when he said it would be, at the original quoted price. (Normal disclaimer)

 

The Foster is about £2k +vat., and I’ll get Wayne Bell to knock up the boiler.

 

But I do agree that probably a 4″ engine is best value. The castings are not much more expensive – I looked at LSM for 3 and 4″ Fosters, and there is about £400 or so in it (from memory) And you do get a much more chunky machine – MUCH more, like 4CWT more which may be a consideration in the transport and in manipulation while building.

 

If I’d had the 6″ lathe when I started, I would have gone for the 4″, but starting with a Myford the smaller engine seemed wiser.  Actually a 3″ engine would be a bit of a stretch for a Myford. Possible certainly, but one would have had to farm quite a lot out.

Edited By meyrick griffith-jones on 16/09/2009 06:38:25

[TrevorhParticipant @trevorh]

Hi

Any Chance of a little more detail concerning amberly

 

like “where is it exactly”

how much does it cost to get in?

What are the times and dates

 

Thanks

[WearyParticipant @weary]

http://www.amberleymuseum.co.uk/

 

 

[brickyParticipant @bricky]

Francis Boyle.

Hello . I have been building my gold medal tractor for 25 years between running a business/ alterations to the house and other things that keep you from the workshop.

The drawings are very accurate and the castings also are good.It is a small engine in full size therefore it is like clockwork on the small items,but I am still enjoying every stage I complete .I made my own boiler and had no engineering experience previously,it is not to difficult.I sometimes wish I had gone for a 3″ Burrell  as being a builder my fingers are a little large to get into the fiddley bits,but it is a beautiful engine when completed [when]

All the best Francis 

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Just a bit more info on the Amberley rally that the museums web site linked above does not really cover

 

Entrance to the museum will get you in to see all their exhibits and the model engines will be in steam and running around the site both days. They have a parade at 3.00pm so this is the best time to see them all running but if you want to talk to other builders & owners then any time during the day except when they are lining up for the parade. If when you come through the gates you go up the hill behind the resteraunt you will find the main area where the models are being prepared and the owners camping out.

 

You will probably find me loitering around the MJ Eng stand, ask Alan to point me out if you want a chat.

 

Jason

Edited By JasonB on 16/09/2009 20:47:59

[TrevorhParticipant @trevorh]

Hi all,

I went to the Amberly exhibition on Sunday, I think this was the first time I had seen so many engines freely roaming around the place. The weather was perfect, so all in all a cracking day.

 

I wasn’t aware that there was such a diversity of engines let alone size and configuration.

 

Beginning to appreciate the dedication you guys have to not only build but run the engines.

 

Cheers

[TrevorhParticipant @trevorh]

Well Finally bitten the bullet

just purchased the drawings for the 3″ Burrell Agricultural

 

now just need to get the parts on order

 

cheers

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Have a look at Alan Stepney’s site before you cut any metal as there are some drawing errors listed there.

 

http://www.alanstepney.info/page47.html

 

Jason

[TrevorhParticipant @trevorh]

Cheers for that Jason, I will have a detailed look at the drawings when they arrive and compare the comments.

 

Thanks

[RodWilsonParticipant @rodwilson64631]

May be fiddly but I think small is beautiful!    I’m building the 2″ Burrell Gold Medal Tractor.    Not too interested in the running of the model.  To be honest I’ll loose a bit of interest when it’s finally finished

[mgjParticipant @mgj]

Well before you order any parts, you can make the discs for setting up the rims concentric with the hubs.

 

That’s a nice tedious woodworking/MDF job to get out of the way.

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