Non-warping Wood for Base?

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember12892]

[This posting has been removed]

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

That big would need an engineered hardwood floorboard such as the B&Q ones with a matching beading around the edges to hide the pine innards.

[VersabossParticipant @versaboss]

If you want a kind of wood which really doesn't warp, then look at 'Panzerholz'.
Warning: it is expensive and not easy to procure.

Made by Delignit

Kind regards,
Hans

 

Edited By Versaboss on 06/02/2022 14:52:48

[Dr_GMJNParticipant @dr_gmjn]

Posted by Steviegtr on 06/02/2022 00:17:08:

Mainly the most stable of woods is Hardwood. It is expensive, but If you used say solid oak. It would never move. But your bank account would.

Steve.

This is what happened to the solid oak plank I got, after being indoors for a few months:

I can assure you it was a flat as a pancake when I got it.

I realise a lot of factors need to be considered when discussing how prone a certain wood it to warping, and the conditions that might lead to it, but to say solid oak will never move certainly isn't correct.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Two off cuts of 6mm veneered MDF from the backing of your sideboard glued to a strip of 18mm MDF will give you the thickness and a balanced lamination. and stick on some strips of 6mm thick solid oak lippings so you can plane or router cut the chamfer. You don't have to have a solid filling, strips will do to keep the weight down

Alternative is to glue up another lamination of MDF preferably MR cut to final size once glued a sit's easier than trying to stop the layers squirming about as you clamp them together. Then cut a 6×6 rebate around the top edge and glue in some 6×6 square oak strip. Get some "flexiveneer" and cuts so strips to glue to the ends and then the sides, finally cover the top and bottom with same. Router cut the chamfer which will cut through the veneer and into the 6×6 strip.

Apply finish of choice.

A few such constructions

And a couple of cabinets for boats

Edited By JasonB on 06/02/2022 15:25:29

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

Dr_GMJN.

I am interested which glue you use on the paper models, at the moment I use UHU but get contraction of the joins.

Every other glue has a long drying time. I did try the glue used on balsa models but that also contracts joints, do you have any recomendations?

Clive

[Dr_GMJNParticipant @dr_gmjn]

Sorry Jason, I'm not sure what you mean. After 6 weeks of going stir crazy with a broken foot at Christmas, and now 10 days to self-isolate in the spare bedroom with Covid, I'm not 100% with it.

Do you mean something like this:

I'd have to match the side pieces with the surface somehow, and presumably chamfer the corners? I can't accurately cut wood by hand, so it might be a big ask. A friend has a CNC router he built, so I guess he could do it.

The displays look great by the way. Cheers.

[John Doe 2Participant @johndoe2]

I think that freshly felled wood needs to season for something like 7 years before it is truly stable? I don't know of anyone who sells such properly seasoned wood – it's often kiln dried which will warp. So old furniture would probably be a good source. I had to literally throw away a lovely 1930s oak dining table some years ago, (long story), which broke my heart because of the workmanship and the quality of oak used. You could maybe pick up plain furniture at your local town or county furniture auction rooms for not too much money as long as it's not Chippendale !

Kitchen units seem fairly stable; the units in the house we bought have what seem to be solid oak drawer fronts – made from three strips glued together and veneered on the front surface, and they are all straight and true. They could be bought separately from Howdens or someone and used as mounting boards?

If your display shelves absolutely must not warp even slightly, maybe a thick 'plank' of aluminium with thin oak veneer glued on all sides and finished to look like a solid piece of timber?

Edited By John Doe 2 on 06/02/2022 16:01:10

[Dr_GMJNParticipant @dr_gmjn]

Posted by Clive Hartland on 06/02/2022 15:27:55:

Dr_GMJN.

I am interested which glue you use on the paper models, at the moment I use UHU but get contraction of the joins.

Every other glue has a long drying time. I did try the glue used on balsa models but that also contracts joints, do you have any recomendations?

Clive

Clive,

For large, flat pieces, I use UHU to secure – it doesn't cause wrinkling like PVA because it's not water based – it touches the paper surface and quickly skins over rather than soaking in. This is why I scrapped the first attempt – the PVA soaked into the deck, and gave a horrible egg crate effect where the thin substructure pieces touched it. I've not found it contracts, but wouldn't be surprised. If used as above, contraction shouldn't be an issue anyway.

UHU is useless for small parts because it's stringy and uncontrollable.

For the vast majority of assembly I use Formula 560 PVA canopy glue. I often tape parts together, and paint (sparingly) a slightly thinned bead along the join. Wrinkling isn't much of an issue on corner joints or small parts.

One advantage of Formula 560 is that it's water soluble, so if you screw up you might have a chance of re-dissolving it with water and trying again; it's saved me many times.

Full thread here if you're interested in registering:

Bismarck, HMV, 1:250 – PaperModelers.com

Thanks.

[Chris Evans 6Participant @chrisevans6]

Would "Buffalo Board" suitably veneered work ? Used for trailer floors and I have yet to see any distort.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The first option described is like this

Some strips of 18mm MDF say 35mm wide glued onto a piece of 6mm oak veneered MDF with a second piece on top. If you make that structure 1020 x 220 once dried it can be cut down to 1000×200. Then glue some strips of 6mm x 30+ oak around the sides. once set plane/sand flush and then cut your chamfer.

Second option is to just glue up solid or with the strips again but just use unfaced MDF.

Once that has been cut to 1000×200 cut a 6mm x 6mm rebate along the edges you want chamfered and glue in some strips of 6×6 oak or a littkle larger and plane flush so you end up with a core that looks a bit like this box where the oak would be your MDF and the ebony your 6×6 oak strips

You can then veneer the ends & trim flush. Veneer the front & back and trim flush. Veneer the top and bottom and trim flush. Finally cut the chamfers which won't expose any MDF as it will just be the soak stringing that shows through

[Mark EasingwoodParticipant @markeasingwood33578]

Hello,

Lovey models.

I would broadly do as Jason has suggested.

Two sheets of 3 or 6mm MDF for top and bottom, inner framework of MDF strips, (like an aeroplane wing, only flat)

Glue it all together, then lip the outer edges with hardwood, say 8mm thick, mitred at the four corners, flush it off with the top/bottom.

Veneer over the top and bottom, trim edges flush, then chamfer . Use matching veneer and lipping, and you won't see the join when you chamfer it.

Mark. (Joinery Manufacturer).

 

Jason is quicker than me.

Edited By Mark Easingwood on 06/02/2022 16:57:19

[Dr_GMJNParticipant @dr_gmjn]

Thanks all.

Jason – yes, the first option is what I like – I've had no luck with attaching thin veneer to the edges of any veneered MDF furniture I've make, so having the top surface already done is good.

Only difference to what you say is to get overall dims back to 1000 mm x 200 mm, I would have to machine to 988 mm x 198 mm before sticking the 6 mm solid sides and ends onto it.

Another similar option, which would avoid any thin veneer would be to use 6 mm veneered MDF for the top, sides and ends, all cut to be 6 mm short, then glue in square stock and chamfer all edges (top and vertical)? In fact there are lots of combinations of the above. I guess it depends on the capacity of my friend's CNC router becasue I know if I try to do it by hand I won't be happy with it.

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by John Doe 2 on 06/02/2022 15:59:17:

I think that freshly felled wood needs to season for something like 7 years before it is truly stable? I don't know of anyone who sells such properly seasoned wood – it's often kiln dried which will warp.

Should you ever have need for realistic quantities of 'real wood' then there are a few small scale private wood-mills about. I did visit one locally a few years ago – had a stack of tree butts in a field and their own 'Wood Mizer' horizontal bandsaw in an old barn. The problem and cost comes from the heavy gear needed to collect and move such timbers about. Much of their business was logs for woodburners from scrap and poor quality trees but there were several nice specimens of wild cherry and others in the stack – but not cheap- you'll be buying most of the tree.
The guys that built my hobby shed and did some work on the house extension used such a source for all the studwork.
If memory serves, it was suggested at least one year per inch thickness of log for natural drying.

pgk

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The place that I get any green oak (fresh cut) that I need has a couple of Wood-Mizers, one set up in a barn and another they do mobile sawmilling with. These days it's more economical to import regular sizes of green oak ready sawn from France so they just use the mill for weather boarding and specials.

The main hardwood supplier that I use is Surrey Timbers and they have a lot of slabs of native and imported timbers many of the native ones they have cut and air or kiln dried themselves, better pictures on their FB page

As said by PGK the usual rule of thumb is 1yr per 1" of thickness for air dried timber but that needs to be conditioned of finally kiln dried for interior use.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

The thought comes to mind of using four laminations.

They would need to be carefully selected, of the same wood, of the same thickness and in pairs, s near identical as possible.

One pair are glued back to back, in such a way that any warping would be longitudinal, but in opposing directions, so that one negates the warping in the other one.

The same technique would be applied to the other pair of laminations, but with the grain running at right angles, so as to provide stability in the other plane.

Would this work? Or have I just invented plywood.

Howard

Edited By Howard Lewis on 06/02/2022 19:37:49

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Unfortunately it's quite a large piece of timber to keep straight, particularly in our centrally heated houses.
Veneered MDF/Chipboard, with a solid wood edging springs to mind.
Our new (to us) home, built 1995 has an office space with a permanent desk, a bit like a kitchen work surface, but made of high quality/density 40mm pre-veneered chipboard.
It's edged with a solid hardwood moulding, which if it was sat 45mm would form a nice edging to locate your plastic cover.

The other possibility, and I don't know if anyone offers the service commercially, would be to use the wood of your choice, and have it stabilised with something like Cactus Juice.
It's applied in a vacuum chamber and drawn into the wood as the air is re-introduced.
The final item is then oven baked, but obviously could not be done in a domestic oven.
https://houseofresin.co.uk/cactus-juice-stabilizing-resin-3-79-litres-1-us-gallon-revised-formula/

Bill

[Ramon WilsonParticipant @ramonwilson3]

Hi Doc,

It seems to me looking at your previous models that you have used wood but in comparison they are much shorter. I can certainly appreciate your desire not to have a base that will eventually twist.

You could try using block board – a lamination of two layers of ply separated by strips of timber glued together. Not cheap but you may get an offcut. I have some that is 1" thick that I used for a baseboard to build a large ship model many years back (due to circumstance at the time it was never finished) It's very dense and extremely warp resistant.

I used a left over piece to make the base for this case and cut the timber to surround it. The timber was recycled from an old mahogany mantel shelf

The surface is the ply – not further veneered and coated with french polish ie it is not 'french polished' in the traditional sense

Its absolutely flat and is now several years old and sits on the sideboard in a centrally heated environment – no warps yet

Maybe more food for thought ?

Ramon

Edited By Ramon Wilson on 06/02/2022 22:54:34

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